Israel raids ships carrying aid to Gaza, killings civilians

[Larry]

Yeah, I think one of the biggest problems over there is no one can get best the "chicken and the egg" issue. Everyone wants to claim they were injured more and they were the first one abused and depending on where you start your timeline both have solid cases.

Ultimately, it's a pointless argument. Afterall, what can really be done about injuries made 70, 200, 2500 years ago? Being fixated on all the past wrongs just helps to build up the bitterness, rear, and entrenchment.

Oh, I came to the decision back during the Falklands "War" that what History really needs is a Statute of Limitations.

That every historical Wrong that happened more than X years ago (I propose 50 years. I could see 30, or 100.) is "too bad, get over it". As such, no, it's too late for the Indians to demand reparations for the unquestioned wrongs that were committed. Too long ago.

And by that same token, it's too late to complain about Israel existing. Too bad, it's a fact, now.

Problem is with Israel and Palestine, they don't even have to go back a year to find an excuse.

[Larry]

Maybe. But that was the rule of war for thousands of years.

Recalling a scene from The Mary Tyler Moore Show.

Ted does something stupid on the air. Lou announces his intention to go and beat him until he doesn't do that any more.

Mary: Lou, you're an adult. You know that violence never settles anything.

Lou gives her a withering look.

Mary, violence has "settled"

Every war in history.

Every Super Bowl ever played.

And a lot of marriages I know.

[Jumbo]

Recalling a scene from The Mary Tyler Moore Show.

Ted does something stupid on the air. Lou announces his intention to go and beat him until he doesn't do that any more.

Mary: Lou, you're an adult. You know that violence never settles anything.

Lou gives her a withering look.

Mary, violence has "settled"

Every war in history.

Every Super Bowl ever played.

And a lot of marriages I know.

I always loved that scene, and often quote that sentiment

[AzSkinsFan63]

Facts and figures eh? Let's talk about those. Do you even know what the conflict between Israel/Palestine is even about? Probably not, so let me give you a history lesson.

Back in 1923, the British Mandate was split up into two areas. One of those areas was Palestine.

Wait, it gets better. So in 1947, the UN meets and decides that instead of giving back the land to the Palestines that they'd separate the land and give half of it to the jews as a consolation prize for the holocaust.

So pretty much you had a bunch of people not invested in the situation take land away from the Arabs and hand it over to the Israelis. Want to know who voted against it? The people in the area did, while those away from the area voted for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UNGA_181_Map.png (will show you what the colors stand for)

Green = Yes

Burgandy = No

Yellow= Abstaining

Red = Absent

You guys act like the jews are the ones persecuted here, but it's the other way around. It was the Arabs who had their land stole from them, handed to jews and was told to deal with it. Would you? If the UN split up the US, would YOU allow another group of people to occupy your land? Hell no.

Guess what? The Israelis are STILL taking their land, yet we expect them to do nothing?

Updated maps.

Guys, it's ok. They are jews and the people they are killing have brown skin so it doesn't matter.

You too can systematically kill dark skinned people and take their land too. Want to know how? Just play your Holocaust card!!

How you like them facts buddy?

[brandymac27]

Personally, I think that neither party is innocent in this fiasco. Meaning the humanitarians on the ships, Palestinians, and the Israelis. I think to attempt to point the finger at one party is being either hypocritical or biased.

All of the parties are to blame in this. I think if everyone looks at each sides' position and the history b/w the parties in the region, you'll come closer to understanding each of their positions. But, to point the finger at at some, and give others a free pass just isn't fair.

Either way, IMPO, I don't see the situation getting any better any time soon, and I have a gut feeling this thing is gonna get really, really bad. It's unfortunate that it seems like the Israeli's and Palestinians will never be able to get along, and it seems like the only person in this thread who came up with any type of decent proposal to fix the situation was Larry.

If his proposal will work, I don't know. But the reason I bring it up is b/c so many people in this thread have thrown around a ton of garbage at other posters and towards certain groups that are involved in this, like the Palestinians and Israelis, that it's gotten ridiculous.

I mean, if you're gonna spew garbage/bigotry at least come up with a plausible solution to the problem. And again, I think it's unfair to point the finger at any group considering that both parties (Palestinians and Israeli's) BOTH have massive amounts of blood on their hands. I feel bad for all of them. I would hate to live in a situation like that, especially one that seems will never get better until one group literally wipes the other off the map.

Anyway, I guess I just wanted to say this so everyone can take an honest look at the situation instead of pointing fingers based on your own personal prejudices.

[HailGreen28]

You'd normally move your 'allies' to your spare bedroom?

Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran should take Palestinians.

Then the home location should be the United Nations and Nato and Historical National Park on what not to do ever again.

Dear lord, this thread exploded last I checked...

Jordan probably still isn't too keen on having to do another "Black September", or Hamas getting more of a foothold in their country. Ditto for the other Arab states. They helped encourage this mess to vex Israel, not themselves.

I like the sentiment of the UN taking charge of ALL Gaza, and all the West Bank including Jerusalem.

[Prosperity]

to sum up the Israel/Palestine conflict

"**** sucks"

[jpyaks3]

Jesus christ this gets so many basic facts wrong it isn't even funny.

First off Ottoman Empire wasn't ruled by the Turks for 400 years the Turks were one of many people to rule in the Ottoman Empire.

There actually was a Palestinian nation as they held congress in 1935 well before Israel was an entity.

He is says that Jews were the majority population in Jerusalem since the 19th century which is disputable and he also doesn't mention that they were the vast minority in the Palestinian territory until the 5th wave of immigration into Israel well after the 19th century.

What exactly does the Jewish prosecution by Nazi Germany and Russia have to do with Palestine? The answer absolutely nothing. Why is that even in there?

The British gave 80 % of the land to Arabs because Arabs constituted the vast majority of the population. He also fails to understand the distinction between Jordanian Arabs and Palestinians, he just throws them all in together because they are brown so hey they are all the same.

He states that they split the Palestinian mandate into 2 parts but he doesn't mention that Palestinians made up the majority of the population and owned the majority of the land and yet received land significantly less than their population numbers would suggest. But hey lets not let facts stand in the way.

What the hell is he talking about with billions from the US and the UN? He didn't really mention that a lot of Palestinians were driven from their land through a concerted effort by the Israeli leadership.

Wow another terrible talking point that is false and not indicative of the situation, the Palestinians were offered 90 percent of the land but that didn't include the settlements that criss cross the West Bank and make in economically and politically unviable or the vast network of security measures that make it nearly unlivable.

Hey once again lets just act like all Arabs are the same. Once again if they are brown they are the same right.

I am 3 minutes into this racist piece of trash and he still hasn't gotten a single fact right. Are you sure you want to stand by this?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Seems that those terrorist sympathizers aren't exactly enemies of Israel after all, and I guess that the arms they were smuggling into Gaza weren't all that some made them out to be.

Israel began releasing activists detained from a Gaza aid flotilla Tuesday as humanitarian cargo aboard the ships was unloaded and taken into the blockaded Palestinian territory.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/gaza.raid.resolution/index.html?hpt=T2

[DixieFlatline]

Seems that those terrorist sympathizers aren't exactly enemies of Israel after all, and I guess that the arms they were smuggling into Gaza weren't all that some made them out to be.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/gaza.raid.resolution/index.html?hpt=T2

How do you know if arms are on board until you check?

If those activists really wanted the aid to be delivered, all they had to do was go into the port they were directed to.

[AsburySkinsFan]

How do you know if arms are on board until you check?

If those activists really wanted the aid to be delivered, all they had to do was go into the port they were directed to.

Why? So the materials could be seized by the government and never find its way into the lives of those who need it most? Do you seriously believe that without this media firestorm and international outcry that Israel would have seen to it that these materials got to Gaza? IMO not a bloody chance.

I've said it repeatedly in this thread, Israel played their part just as expected.

[Maximus71]

Seems that those terrorist sympathizers aren't exactly enemies of Israel after all, and I guess that the arms they were smuggling into Gaza weren't all that some made them out to be.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/gaza.raid.resolution/index.html?hpt=T2

This is from your article:

Hanin Zoabi, a member of the Israeli parliament, was on board the Miva Marmara, the ship that was the scene of the confrontation between activists and Israeli soldiers. The Israeli Navy fired on the ships five minutes before commandos descended from ropes that dangled from helicopters, Zoabi said during a news conference in Nazareth, Israel. She said passengers on board the ship were unarmed.

So let me get this right, an Israeli Parliament member is saying passengers on board the ship were UNARMED! Am I missing something here? Also, lets just say that the people on the ship did attack first by clubs and knives, per that article it clearly states that the Israeli Navy opened fire on the ship, 5 minutes later the commandos repelled down on to the ship where they were greeted by angry mob... keep in mind they are still in international waters, maybe they were trying to defend them selves from soldiers with guns invading their ship after being attacked by a Navy vessel. How were they suppose to react? I think its pretty stupid to attack a group of well trained soldiers that have guns with clubs and knives, unless they were shot at first by the commandos and they retaliated to defend their own lives.

[SkinsHokieFan]

This is from your article:

Hanin Zoabi, a member of the Israeli parliament, was on board the Miva Marmara, the ship that was the scene of the confrontation between activists and Israeli soldiers. The Israeli Navy fired on the ships five minutes before commandos descended from ropes that dangled from helicopters, Zoabi said during a news conference in Nazareth, Israel. She said passengers on board the ship were unarmed.

So let me get this right, an Israeli Parliament member is saying passengers on board the ship were UNARMED! Am I missing something here? .

She is clearly an anti-Semite

[SkinsHokieFan]

A few more anti semites here

Link to story

[AsburySkinsFan]

She is clearly an anti-Semite

[brianm23]

You actually believe that ****?

Hey guys, I saw a video on youtube, it must be true!!

[sacase]

The question is how can you defend that they were attacked first when they illegally boarded a sovereign vessel in international waters beyond the authority of the blockade? At what point is Israel the aggressor?

The US Navy does this all the time.

[MurrayH81]

This is from your article:

Hanin Zoabi, a member of the Israeli parliament, was on board the Miva Marmara, the ship that was the scene of the confrontation between activists and Israeli soldiers. The Israeli Navy fired on the ships five minutes before commandos descended from ropes that dangled from helicopters, Zoabi said during a news conference in Nazareth, Israel. She said passengers on board the ship were unarmed.

I am not sure exactly what is being referred to here, but "firing upon" the ships attempting to break the blockade could mean that "warning shots were fired across the bow (or in front of) of those vessels". If that turns out to be the case, the US Coast Guard does this all the time when vessels refuse to comply with their directive to "heave to and prepare to be boarded". I would assume the US Navy does this as well, where they have jurisdiction. Even if outside of their jurisdiction, if a modern naval vessel tells you to "heave to", you better be ready for armed conflict if you don't. It's kind of like telling the officer that you didn't pull over for that "he is out of his jurisdiction" when you finally got stopped. That may be true, but it would be better to let your lawyer make that argument in court after you stopped as directed. Not saying there isn't enough blame on both sides in this incident, I am just making a comment on the above.

[Ryman of the North]

What the?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

You do know that was completely rejected by the arabs and caused a civil war right? and you also know that since then the UN has been extremely anti Israel to the point where a watchdog organisation was formed by several member states?

[Ryman of the North]

Unfortunately, what you said was:

and this:

You show video footage of unarmed civilians fighting with deck chairs and lengths of pipe, quote a claim that the Israelis may have lost some (unspecified) weapons, and the next thing is, you're announcing that unarmed civilians managed to take loaded guns away from trained, armed, soldiers, and were shooting at them.

Yes you did. Here's one of the many times you said it:

wow larry, really? I was pretty clear that this was never about humanitarian aid, I never once said they didnt actually have supplies, that was the EXCUSE as admitted by the organiser of this debacle.

I also said that the Israelis didnt start shooting lethal weapons until AFTER the arabs took away some firearms and used them, (and yes there were svereal wounded commandos who had gunshot wounds, given that there were supposedly no guns on those ships how else did they get them?

[Ryman of the North]

This is from your article:

Hanin Zoabi, a member of the Israeli parliament, was on board the Miva Marmara, the ship that was the scene of the confrontation between activists and Israeli soldiers. The Israeli Navy fired on the ships five minutes before commandos descended from ropes that dangled from helicopters, Zoabi said during a news conference in Nazareth, Israel. She said passengers on board the ship were unarmed.

So let me get this right, an Israeli Parliament member is saying passengers on board the ship were UNARMED! Am I missing something here? Also, lets just say that the people on the ship did attack first by clubs and knives, per that article it clearly states that the Israeli Navy opened fire on the ship, 5 minutes later the commandos repelled down on to the ship where they were greeted by angry mob... keep in mind they are still in international waters, maybe they were trying to defend them selves from soldiers with guns invading their ship after being attacked by a Navy vessel. How were they suppose to react? I think its pretty stupid to attack a group of well trained soldiers that have guns with clubs and knives, unless they were shot at first by the commandos and they retaliated to defend their own lives.

If they followed typical boarding protocols then they most likely dropped teargas to disperse anyone crowing the decks, and as for being "attacked" they knew damn well that had the israelis gone in hot the casualties would have been far greater, this was a staged "protest" nothing more.

[Ryman of the North]

Jesus christ this gets so many basic facts wrong it isn't even funny.

First off Ottoman Empire wasn't ruled by the Turks for 400 years the Turks were one of many people to rule in the Ottoman Empire.

There actually was a Palestinian nation as they held congress in 1935 well before Israel was an entity.

He is says that Jews were the majority population in Jerusalem since the 19th century which is disputable and he also doesn't mention that they were the vast minority in the Palestinian territory until the 5th wave of immigration into Israel well after the 19th century.

What exactly does the Jewish prosecution by Nazi Germany and Russia have to do with Palestine? The answer absolutely nothing. Why is that even in there?

The British gave 80 % of the land to Arabs because Arabs constituted the vast majority of the population. He also fails to understand the distinction between Jordanian Arabs and Palestinians, he just throws them all in together because they are brown so hey they are all the same.

He states that they split the Palestinian mandate into 2 parts but he doesn't mention that Palestinians made up the majority of the population and owned the majority of the land and yet received land significantly less than their population numbers would suggest. But hey lets not let facts stand in the way.

What the hell is he talking about with billions from the US and the UN? He didn't really mention that a lot of Palestinians were driven from their land through a concerted effort by the Israeli leadership.

Wow another terrible talking point that is false and not indicative of the situation, the Palestinians were offered 90 percent of the land but that didn't include the settlements that criss cross the West Bank and make in economically and politically unviable or the vast network of security measures that make it nearly unlivable.

Hey once again lets just act like all Arabs are the same. Once again if they are brown they are the same right.

I am 3 minutes into this racist piece of trash and he still hasn't gotten a single fact right. Are you sure you want to stand by this?

There was no palestinian nation in 1935 thats a complete fallacy.

and the part that is definately true was that a majority of the land given to the jews was alkali desert that they reclaimed (part of their under the table talks with jordan that led to the assasination of the king of the jordan was the sharing of the methods used to reclaim the desert.

some of it was pretty propoganda but given the huge amount of misinformation some of it propagated by anti Israelis on this forum, im ok with it lol

[dockeryfan]

misinformation

Is this Alan Dershowitz?

[HailGreen28]

Seems that those terrorist sympathizers aren't exactly enemies of Israel after all, and I guess that the arms they were smuggling into Gaza weren't all that some made them out to be.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/gaza.raid.resolution/index.html?hpt=T2

LOL. Nice way to spin that the Israelis aren't taking advantage of a crisis to execute political opponents, like Hamas has done in the past.

[skinfan133]

Civilians who intentionally put themselves in harms way are no longer civilians, just as civilians who attack soldiers are no longer civilians. according to CNN they couldnt verify that the activists hadnt attcked the Israelis who boarded the ships. and btw when a country states its BLOCKADING another country to prosecute an embargo its not exactly rocket science to expect them to follow through. unlike the US and the UN Israel rarely makes a threat without backing up with action.

This has probably been addressed already, but I feel as though I need to make a point.

while this statement may be mostly true in terms of conventional land-based conflict, this happened at sea in most likely international waters. If you are being attacked on a ship, you can't be faulted for defending yourself. It's like the idiot zero tolerance fighting rules in public schools were kids literally have to ball up and suck their thumb in order to not be expelled for fighting if they are attacked. You have a right to self-defense, which in this situation it most definitely would have been.

edit: blockades are illegal in international law outside of declared war, and even then it's ify. A blockade is established as an act of war. just thought I'd mention that just as a trivia aside.