USAToday: Judge Rules National Day of Prayer Unconstitutional

[Larry]

Larry:

You still haven't shown how 1) that is forcing anyone to do anything and seeing as how not all presidents do it how exactly is it enforced and 2) how that is promoting one religion over any other.

1) The government isn't just prohibited from forcing people to pray. It's [prohibited from encouraging it, too.

2) And as I stated back on page 2 or so: Do you really want to try to claim that when Congress passed this law, that the members of Congress, who were, what, 95% Christian, didn't have in mind the promotion of one particular religion?

[Skins24]

It is promoting religion over non religion, which is discrimination based on religion or lack thereof.

The NDoP isn't promoting any religion. And it isn't discriminating against people who don't pray any more than Mother's Day discriminates against those who don't have mothers.

Again if it weren't for lawsuits like this or maybe a 30 sec. blurb on the news most people wouldn't even know about it.

1) The government isn't just prohibited from forcing people to pray. It's [prohibited from encouraging it, too.

Have you ever in your life felt that the government was encouraging you to pray?

2) And as I stated back on page 2 or so: Do you really want to try to claim that when Congress passed this law, that the members of Congress, who were, what, 95% Christian, didn't have in mind the promotion of one particular religion?

Yeah. Do you have any evidence otherwise?

And you keep answering questions with a question. Didn't your teachers tell you that was rude?

Simple task - Show that this is promoting one religion over any other.

[mistertim]

Have you ever in your life felt that the government was encouraging you to pray?

Sure, during...wait for it..."National Day of Prayer"

[PokerPacker]

The NDoP isn't promoting any religion. And it isn't discriminating against people who don't pray any more than Mother's Day discriminates against those who don't have mothers.

Again if it weren't for lawsuits like this or maybe a 30 sec. blurb on the news most people wouldn't even know about it.

Mother's day is a hallmark holiday.

Have you ever in your life felt that the government was encouraging you to pray?

Yes, I went to a public high school graduation where the guest speaker was a priest who lead everyone in prayer. The whole "moment of silence" is an obvious ploy trying to get students to pray. The inclusion of the words "under god" in the pledge of allegiance that teachers made students recite.

Simple task - Show that this is promoting one religion over any other.

Its is promoting religion over non religion, which is religious discrimination.

[Larry]

Again if it weren't for lawsuits like this or maybe a 30 sec. blurb on the news most people wouldn't even know about it.

Guess you weren't there, I'd say a couple of weeks ago, when someone "proved" to me that Obama wasn't a Christian, because he didn't ont the National Day of Prayer, Obama didn't make a public event out of meeting with the leaders of the Religious Right, the way W did.

Have you ever in your life felt that the government was encouraging you to pray?

Aren't you the same person who demanded, less than a day ago, that I quote for you the original post, which stated that the law Congress passed stated that it's purpose was for the President to encourage people to pray?

Are you still pretending that that doesn't exist?

Or are you somebody else, who didn't read the original post, or my quote of it?

[commyderm2]

I could care less either way about this issue.. Theocrats will get their chastity belts all up in a bunch over this.. As a Christian, I personally don't need the government to tell me when I should or should not pray..

To those liberals that are against the NDoP, what's the problem? You want the government to force us to follow every one of your personal beliefs.. Oh gee, the governments promoting something that you don't personally agree with.. hmmmm.. now you know how we feel.. You could always choose not to participate in the National Day of Prayer.. you aren't legally mandated to do it or face tax consequences.. Which I'm sure would be the case if liberals just so happened to be theocrats..

[PokerPacker]

I could care less either way about this issue.. Theocrats will get their chastity belts all up in a bunch over this.. As a Christian, I personally don't need the government to tell me when I should or should not pray..

To those liberals that are against the NDoP, what's the problem? You want the government to force us to follow every one of your personal beliefs.. Oh gee, the governments promoting something that you don't personally agree with.. hmmmm.. now you know how we feel.. You could always choose not to participate in the National Day of Prayer.. you aren't legally mandated to do it or face tax consequences.. Which I'm sure would be the case if liberals just so happened to be theocrats..

I don't think anyone's mistaken me for a liberal. Hooray for broad-brushes.

[commyderm2]

I don't think anyone's mistaken me for a liberal. Hooray for broad-brushes.

Hooray for insecurity..

psst.. FYI, I wasn't talking about you... Especially if your neither a liberal or a theocrat "conservative"...

[Hubbs]

I could care less either way about this issue.. Theocrats will get their chastity belts all up in a bunch over this.. As a Christian, I personally don't need the government to tell me when I should or should not pray..

To those liberals that are against the NDoP, what's the problem? You want the government to force us to follow every one of your personal beliefs.. Oh gee, the governments promoting something that you don't personally agree with.. hmmmm.. now you know how we feel.. You could always choose not to participate in the National Day of Prayer.. you aren't legally mandated to do it or face tax consequences.. Which I'm sure would be the case if liberals just so happened to be theocrats..

You know, I've always thought that conservatives should be even more strongly against the "two wrongs make a right" argument than liberals. But, hey, if it's politically convenient....

[Skins24]

Yes, I went to a public high school graduation where the guest speaker was a priest who lead everyone in prayer. The whole "moment of silence" is an obvious ploy trying to get students to pray.

Did you yourself pray? If not, did anyone notice you not praying during the moment of silence? Did anyone kick you out for not praying during the moment of silence?

The inclusion of the words "under god" in the pledge of allegiance that teachers made students recite.

You're young. Meaning you were in school when teachers couldn't make you recite the pledge. They couldn't make anyone when I was in school. If they did, why didn't you sue?

And, that is in no way a prayer.

Its is promoting religion over non religion, which is religious discrimination.

Problem is it's not promoting anything as again this is not something that is forced or enforced. You can be as non religious as you want that day and (unless you break the law) not one person will say or do anything.

(also, this really is no different than mother's day - [wiki] The holiday was declared officially by the state of West Virginia in 1910, and the rest of states followed quickly.[2] On May 8, 1914, the U.S. Congress passed a law designating the second Sunday in May as Mother's Day and requesting a proclamation. On May 9, 1914, President Woodrow Wilson issued a proclamation, declaring the first national Mother's Day,[9][10] as a day for American citizens to show the flag in honor of those mothers whose sons had died in war)

I suppose on that day, people who've lost their mothers feel forced to find another one to celebrate that day?)

larry:

Guess you weren't there, I'd say a couple of weeks ago, when someone "proved" to me that Obama wasn't a Christian, because he didn't ont the National Day of Prayer, Obama didn't make a public event out of meeting with the leaders of the Religious Right, the way W did.

I don't get it.

How is that showing that most people know about the day?

Aren't you the same person who demanded, less than a day ago, that I quote for you the original post, which stated that the law Congress passed stated that it's purpose was for the President to encourage people to pray?

You STILL haven't answered a simple question. Have YOU - as in YOU, Larry - ever felt the government encouraging you to pray?

I know I haven't. I can't remember the NDoP last year, and during W's term I only remember a couple times him having breakfast with various religious leader. Can't remember ever feeling forced to pray any more than normal that day. Have you? This is a simple yes or no question.

Are you still pretending that that doesn't exist?

Or are you somebody else, who didn't read the original post, or my quote of it?

This is in no way a "law" in the normal sense. It's about as "official" as pardoning a turkey.

[Larry]

To those liberals that are against the NDoP, what's the problem? You want the government to force us to follow every one of your personal beliefs..

Prove it.

[Perky72]

Since the NdoP doesn't have the force of law, I wouldn't think it would be strictly unconstitutional, just like the National Prayer Breakfast and having ministers lead Congress in prayer which has happened in the past.

Hope I'm not banned but haven't read the whole thread. It certainly is established by law.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/36/I/A/1/119

The President shall issue each year a proclamation designating the first Thursday in May as a National Day of Prayer on which the people of the United States may turn to God in prayer and

meditation at churches, in groups, and as individuals.

Imo it's also black-letter unconstitutional. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". In the above law, Congress is making a law respecting their own establishment. This is debatable and now it's supposed to mean promoting one religion above others, but that's BS imo. Congress should never make any law about any particular religion or religion in general, certainly shouldn't mention capital g "God" in a law either, as that establishes monotheisms over polytheisms.

In God We Trust, One Nation Under God, all should be unconstitutional. Hope the judge's ruling holds up.

[greenspandan]

To those liberals that are against the NDoP, what's the problem? You want the government to force us to follow every one of your personal beliefs..

ahahaha :facepalm:

[Perky72]

You STILL haven't answered a simple question. Have YOU - as in YOU, Larry - ever felt the government encouraging you to pray?

I know I haven't. I can't remember the NDoP last year, and during W's term I only remember a couple times him having breakfast with various religious leader. Can't remember ever feeling forced to pray any more than normal that day. Have you? This is a simple yes or no question.

How about this yes/no question: Would you support a "National Day of Observing that God Does not Exist Day", with instructions for the President to declare this a day where people can abandon god as a myth and turn instead to science and rationality to find answers to life problems?

yes/no?

I wouldn't support it.

[Larry]

Have you ever in your life felt that the government was encouraging you to pray?

Have I ever been aware that the government was doing that? No.

Has the government ever done that? Yes. (And is continuing to do so, today.)

But, when they did it to me, I was a kid, and didn't know that what they were doing was both morally wrong and treasonous. I just did what the teacher told us to do.

Just like the government, to this day, is counting on people doing.

----------

Now, your turn:

Whether Larry has ever personally known that the government was actively attempting to encourage him to certain religious practices, is relevant to the question of "Does Congress have the authority to pass legislation for the specific, stated, purpose, of encouraging religion?", exactly how?

Last I checked, the Constitution doesn't care whether Larry likes a law or not. All it cares about is whether the purpose of the law to advocate religious matters?

[Skins24]

How about this yes/no question: Would you support a "National Day of Observing that God Does not Exist Day", with instructions for the President to declare this a day where people can abandon god as a myth and turn instead to science and rationality to find answers to life problems?

yes/no?

I wouldn't support it.

Nope, but I could care less. Doing that wouldn't change or affect anything concerning me or anyone else for that matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Reason

[Skins24]

Have I ever been aware that the government was doing that? No.

Good. So we've established that you knew nothing about this day and hence never felt encouraged or forced to pray.

That was my only point.

You're in the same boat as millions upon millions of others.

The claim that people are actually affected by this day is absolutely ridiculous. If this is overturned, then those who pray will pray as they do every day. Those who don't, won't, like they do every day. If they don't watch the news they won't know that that day is NDoP.

If this ruling is upheld, those who pray will pray as they do every day. Those who don't, won't, like they do every day. If they don't watch the news they won't know that that day used to be set aside for NDoP.

Now, your turn:

Whether Larry has ever personally known that the government was actively attempting to encourage him to certain religious practices, is relevant to the question of "Does Congress have the authority to pass legislation for the specific, stated, purpose, of encouraging religion?", exactly how?

Probably not. It doesn't have the authority to establish any religion, but it's freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. It doesn't have the authority to discourage religion.

Prayer isn't a religion though, it's a religious practice. I know congress does have the authority to discourage some religious practices but I think prayer is safe.

[mistertim]

ahahaha :facepalm:

x2 Dan

:double facepalm:

[Predicto]

Probably not. It doesn't have the authority to establish any religion, but it's freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. It doesn't have the authority to discourage religion.

Prayer isn't a religion though, it's a religious practice. I know congress does have the authority to discourage some religious practices but I think prayer is safe.

You are turning the analysis on its head.

HAVING a National Prayer Day actively encourages and endorses prayer, and thus necessarily encourages and endorses religious belief, and is unconstitutional (and no, I do not think it is a big deal).

NOT having a National Prayer Day would not be DIScouraging prayer or religion. It would just be the government keeping its nose entirely out of the subject. The private sector would continue with its monopoly on the subject, which is the way it should be: Religious people being religious, non-religious people being non-religious.

Having a "National God is a Fake" day would be active DISencouragement of religious belief, and also would be unconstitutional.

[Veretax]

Great as if the religious right needed more reason to want to kick liberal butts in the next election cycle. Thank you Judge Crabb. Man Its taking restraint to not say whats in my head but Washington was the VERY First president to call for such a day of prayer as I recall. its been a tradition for presidents to do this at various times, and frankly this is RIDICULOUS.

It is ludicrous to assume that men of faith do not draw on their beliefs in the public square. But you know what, if they don't want us to pray for the nation, maybe it is time for God to bring some 'rain' if you will on it to bring people back to him. Its certainly what he did to Israel a multitude of times.

[mistertim]

You are turning the analysis on its head.

HAVING a National Prayer Day encourages and endorses prayer, and thus necessarily encourages and endorses religious belief.

NOT having a National Prayer Day would not be DIScouraging prayer or religion. It would just be the government keeping its nose entirely out of the subject. The private sector would continue with its monopoly on the subject, which is the way it should be: Religious people being religious, non-religious people being non-religious.

Exactly. Nobody is asking for a "No National Prayer Day". The issue isn't even about what religion you are a part of or if people are offended or not; I don't get why that argument even comes up. It has to do with the law and what the government should or shouldn't be involved in. It is odd to me that many of those who are ardent critics of government influence in pretty much any area (health care, etc) are the first to jump to their side when it comes to this matter.

[Predicto]

Great as if the religious right needed more reason to want to kick liberal butts in the next election cycle. Thank you Judge Crabb. Man Its taking restraint to not say whats in my head but Washington was the VERY First president to call for such a day of prayer as I recall. its been a tradition for presidents to do this at various times, and frankly this is RIDICULOUS.

I'm sure it seems that way to you. As a member of the overwhlming religious majority in this country, I'm sure it has always seemed as though it was your natural birthright to have the government officially endorse your beliefs, regardless of what the Constitution requires.

How can religion stand a chance in this country if the government does not go out of its way to endorse it with special proclamations? Churches will close tomorrow. Faith will wither on the vine.

You SHOULD be insulted that anyone dare ask that the Constitution be enforced. Constiutional limitations are only for other people, not for Christians. They are the majority, after all.

It is ludicrous to assume that men of faith do not draw on their beliefs in the public square.

No one has ever made such a claim. This sentence has nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

[techboy]

How can religion stand a chance in this country if the government does not go out of its way to endorse it with special proclamations? Churches will close tomorrow. Faith will wither on the vine.

The funny thing is that history shows that Christianity flourishes in the face of actual persecution, and tends to get watered down when supported by the state.

[RedskinsFan318]

Of course if an atheist is a U.S. citizen then he or she is protected by the constitution. Just as those who believe the moon landing was a hoax. Or those who still believe the Earth is flat.

How you decided that atheists compare to people who believe the moon landing was a hoax or that the Earth is flat I will never know. Seriously? There is video footage proving the moon landing and there are satellites around the Earth proving its roundness. There is as much proof for the existence of a god as there is the non-existence of a god, and all of a sudden those who choose not to believe are the ignorant people who still think the Earth is flat?:saber:

[DieselPwr44]

Out of all the problems facing this country, this is what some people in the court system focus on?

Jesus, are we in trouble as a nation.........