Politics Daily.com: Glenn Beck Urges Listeners to Leave Churches that Preach Social Justice

[AsburySkinsFan]

I don't think Beck is much good for spiritual advice,certainly not among my first 100 choices

Well he hasn't shown that he should even be on my list of the first 100,000.

I would be curious however where the social justice crowd stands on forced 'charity'

Is it only the result that matters (the needy getting help) ???

ASF should we compel it by force of law?...WWJD?

Trick question, because I could just as easily turn it around and ask should we cut ALL social assistance programming which have often been described as "forced charity". The other tricky bit is that God did legally mandate "forced charity".

Just one example:

Deuteronomy 24:21 When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, do not glean what is left; it shall be for the alien, the orphan, and the widow.

[Springfield]

And here I was, naive little me, thinking that Glen Beck was speaking out against churches that protest abortion, show up at military funerals and speak out against homosexuality. Oh naive little me, what was I thinking?

[twa]

Well he hasn't shown that he should even be on my list of the first 100,000.

Trick question, because I could just as easily turn it around and ask should we cut ALL social assistance programming which have often been described as "forced charity". The other tricky bit is that God did legally mandate "forced charity".

Just one example:

Deuteronomy 24:21 When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, do not glean what is left; it shall be for the alien, the orphan, and the widow.

First ten or 10 million doesn't matter since I don't seek advice much in that area;)

You are offering false choices and building a strawman,,,,and avoiding the question of what defines charity.

I'm not asking what the govt should do,but rather what God says the INDIVIDUAL should.

Allowing them a means to survive is not the same as bringing the harvest to their door now is it?...though there is certainly cause for that in certain cases.

[Veretax]

Right wing revealed. Guess he didn't read the part about how the church shared with each other all their stuff....

Oh did they? Ananias and Sapphira would seem to disagree, in fact imply that everything they had to give they could give and share, but were not required too, yet Ananias and his wife Sapphira what did they do? Sold a piece of land, made a big show of giving money saying it was all, (and lied to the church, and wound up dead). The principle is not that we should be giving all to the church, its that we should give as he moves us to give, that's the principle throughout scripture. And applies better to the situation in the early church then the ideas that they were just being communistic.

The scriptures also banish to hell those that when confronted with those in need did not act to help them. It's not a contradiction but instead the lesson as a whole. The Lord says that you need to work, sloth being a sin, but he also reminds you that you aren't the judge of man. Thus when you are confronted with a person in need it's not your call to judge them worthy, instead you are commanded to help, not out of excess but at great cost to you if need be. The first is how live the other is how you are judged.

Wrong, the bible, God's word says we will Judge even the angels. However, there is a difference between judging, and discerning right and wrong, and condemnation, it is unrighteous condemnation, (or what I call phony righteousness) that Christ was preaching against when he said judge not lest ye be judged.

It is not that he was forbidding judgment, he was reminding us that we each are fallen sinful creatures and would have the same standard applied to us that we apply unto others. We are commanded by the bible to seek what is right and good over that which is sinful and evil, to say that Jesus was saying not to judge good and evil, is one of the biggest lies in society today.

[Madison Redskin]

Wrong, the bible, God's word says we will Judge even the angels. However, there is a difference between judging, and discerning right and wrong, and condemnation, it is unrighteous condemnation, (or what I call phony righteousness) that Christ was preaching against when he said judge not lest ye be judged.

It is not that he was forbidding judgment, he was reminding us that we each are fallen sinful creatures and would have the same standard applied to us that we apply unto others. We are commanded by the bible to seek what is right and good over that which is sinful and evil, to say that Jesus was saying not to judge good and evil, is one of the biggest lies in society today.

It's pretty bold of you to say that another man's interpretation of the Bible is "wrong" and the product of "one of the biggest lies in society." I think most everyone agrees that Biblical passages may be interpreted in many different ways.

If the passage I quoted above refers to the Sermon on the Mount, I slightly differ with you claim. Jesus talked about a man who spent time trying to remove a particle from his brother's eye, while he stood with a stick in his own. That little story doesn't illustrate your point (i.e., you will be judged according to the same standard that you applied to others). Instead, IMO, it illustrates the point that we shouldn't judge others because we should be concerned with our own faults and shortcomings.

[ABQCOWBOY]

the ultra right wing talking heads are running out of targets. it's hard to fill up several hours of air-time everyday

There are no shortage of targets on either side. To believe this is folly. Are their good targets for discussion? Were their ever good targets? Those are different discussions and they can be had on either side.

[Veretax]

It's pretty bold of you to say that another man's interpretation of the Bible is "wrong" and the product of "one of the biggest lies in society." I think most everyone agrees that Biblical passages may be interpreted in many different ways.

If the passage I quoted above refers to the Sermon on the Mount, I slightly differ with you claim. Jesus talked about a man who spent time trying to remove a particle from his brother's eye, while he stood with a stick in his own. That little story doesn't illustrate your point (i.e., you will be judged according to the same standard that you applied to others). Instead, IMO, it illustrates the point that we shouldn't judge others because we should be concerned with our own faults and shortcomings.

The point of the spec and log is that each of us has our own faults that we should deal with before trying to help others. It however, does not imply that we should just as you put not judge at all, which is what the liberal churches today preach. I have had that passage thrown at me so many times I almost laugh when people bring it up.

[ABQCOWBOY]

The scriptures also banish to hell those that when confronted with those in need did not act to help them. It's not a contradiction but instead the lesson as a whole. The Lord says that you need to work, sloth being a sin, but he also reminds you that you aren't the judge of man. Thus when you are confronted with a person in need it's not your call to judge them worthy, instead you are commanded to help, not out of excess but at great cost to you if need be. The first is how live the other is how you are judged.

I would be interested in the books you speak of. I agree, it is not your place to judge. However, it is also not your place to be your neighbors keeper. As I said in an earlier post, the Bible would seem to support a hand up, not a hand out. The Bible is not a source that can be referenced to support Immigration Policy or Entitlement Programs. I don't believe that you can look at either Political Party in this country and make declaration on how they support people who are in need. Neither party believes keeping people from help or assistance. I don't see the correlation.

[Madison Redskin]

The point of the spec and log is that each of us has our own faults that we should deal with before trying to help others. It however, does not imply that we should just as you put not judge at all, which is what the liberal churches today preach. I have had that passage thrown at me so many times I almost laugh when people bring it up.

So, you admit that the passage stands for the proposition that we should deal with our own faults before we concern ourselves with the faults of others. Surely, you also admit that no man or woman is free from sin or otherwise perfect. Put those two together, figure out what the implication is, and get back to me.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Who's to say leaving a destitute country and crossing a border risking jail and getting shot isn't "helping yourself" It sure isn't doing nothing. It's putting forth effort and risk in hopes of a better life.

For me, this argument falls entirely flat. (Mind you, I actually am for much stricter border control, but I don't want my religious people advocating that. I want them advocating compassion and do unto man as you would have them do unto you)

I think the big part II of this for me is that I hate, absolutely hate the casual invocation of Nazis. As someone who was raised by a Holocaust survivor I have an idea of what it was about or at least how it impacted and shaped their life. Preaching "Social Justice" and wanted to help people, especially people with a different ethnic background, doesn't sound anything whatsoever like Nazism.

It is ignornant and lessens the real lessons that we should carry forward from that time.

I don't think that this is the case in America, where immigration is concerned, for either party. The fact of the matter is, if immigrants follow the proper procedures, according to the laws of this country, they are not at odds with either their faith or the law. To me, they are not in opposition of one another. However, it is beyond difficult for me to see how the Bible can be used to support immigration policies in this country. I am not saying this is what you are trying to do. I'm simply making a personal statement for myself.

[AsburySkinsFan]

You are offering false choices and building a strawman,,,,and avoiding the question of what defines charity.

I'm not asking what the govt should do,but rather what God says the INDIVIDUAL should.

Well God doesn't "say" and individual should do something...He demands that they do what He commands them to do. You asked if charity should be legally obligatory and I showed you where God did legally and theologically obligate people to give to the poor. So I guess I'm not sure how you think I'm offering false choices, keeping in mind that this goes beyond the issue of the 10% tithe. My guess is that if churches went back to revisit the commandment to leave the last two rows unharvested Glenn Beck would scream that they are advocating Communism through their concern for social justice.

Allowing them a means to survive is not the same as bringing the harvest to their door now is it?...though there is certainly cause for that in certain cases.

Fine, but all we're doing now is talking about the practicality. Since I imagine you don't farm and thus don't have two rows to leave unharvested would you rather the poor line up at your door to glean the two rows or would it stand to reason that it might be better to have system in place where we might be able to deposit those two "rows" where those poor might be able to go and glean from those "rows".

[AsburySkinsFan]

However, it is beyond difficult for me to see how the Bible can be used to support immigration policies in this country...I'm simply making a personal statement for myself.

And I totally agree with you. The Kingdom of God has no borders.

[ABQCOWBOY]

In the Book of Matthew, the Scriptures advises us not to Judge lest ye be Judged. However, In the Books of John, James, Timothy, Ephesians and even in Matthew, the Scriptures tell us that we should keep Covenant with Gods Word and warns us that there will be those who use the Scriptures to change the meaning of the Word. It tells us to be mindful of this and recommends that you do not consort with those who would break Covenant with the Word of God. The two things are very different. One is telling you not to take it upon yourself to bestow judgment. The other is telling you to mind your own faith and not allow man to come between your God and yourself. Two completely different things. In Revelations, it specifically says:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

In Deuteronomy, it says, "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you."

Jesus clearly states, his Kingdom is not of this world. For us to try and make it such is against the words of Scripture. It is wrong to try and do it on either side. The Right should not use the Scriptures as political tools, just as the Left should not. Both are equally wrong just as we would be wrong to do this, according to scriptures. If you are a Christian, then you must understand the problems that can happen when you use the Bible to support political positions that are not in step with the Scriptures.

The Bible is very clear about this.

[Homercles82]

Wrong thread.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Jesus clearly states, his Kingdom is not of this world. For us to try and make it such is against the words of Scripture.

I think I understand what you're saying here that we are not supposed to assume that our nation is God's Kingdom. However, as a people we are of God's Kingdom...we are the population of that Kingdom and as such where ever we are there is God's Kingdom. As such the Kingdom can be described as "here and not yet" in that the population is here (and by default so is the Kingdom) but it is not yet fully realized until the 2nd coming. I find it very similar to the idea where a family moves to another country and yet they bring their culture, and their religious practices with them and continue to live with that culture even in the new country. I see this is how the Kingdom of God can be seen even in and alien land.

[Homercles82]

I think I understand what you're saying here that we are not supposed to assume that our nation is God's Kingdom. However, as a people we are of God's Kingdom...we are the population of that Kingdom and as such where ever we are there is God's Kingdom. As such the Kingdom can be described as "here and not yet" in that the population is here (and by default so is the Kingdom) but it is not yet fully realized until the 2nd coming. I find it very similar to the idea where a family moves to another country and yet they bring their culture, and their religious practices with them and continue to live with that culture even in the new country. I see this is how the Kingdom of God can be seen even in and alien land.

I think a can of worms was just opened. Eschatalogical discussions are a big divider among Christians.

[Midnight Judges]

At what point do people start not giving crap what this idiot says?

[Homercles82]

At what point do people start not giving crap what this idiot says?

When another idiot finds his niche in the market.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think I understand what you're saying here that we are not supposed to assume that our nation is God's Kingdom. However, as a people we are of God's Kingdom...we are the population of that Kingdom and as such where ever we are there is God's Kingdom. As such the Kingdom can be described as "here and not yet" in that the population is here (and by default so is the Kingdom) but it is not yet fully realized until the 2nd coming. I find it very similar to the idea where a family moves to another country and yet they bring their culture, and their religious practices with them and continue to live with that culture even in the new country. I see this is how the Kingdom of God can be seen even in and alien land.

Yes. I believe that this is factual, according to the scriptures.

[twa]

Well God doesn't "say" and individual should do something...He demands that they do what He commands them to do. You asked if charity should be legally obligatory and I showed you where God did legally and theologically obligate people to give to the poor. So I guess I'm not sure how you think I'm offering false choices, keeping in mind that this goes beyond the issue of the 10% tithe. My guess is that if churches went back to revisit the commandment to leave the last two rows unharvested Glenn Beck would scream that they are advocating Communism through their concern for social justice.

)

God demands?...whatever happened to love and mercy?

Still don't see where God demanded we give to the poor in your example,by modern comparison a right to work and soup kitchens would satisfy your example:evilg:...keeping in mind your example is from a theocracy,which is verbotten under our constitution

The tithe is a interesting example which was directed solely to the priesthood,if we are going to shift responsibility to our government should we then not tithe?.

"My ownership fee is to be used for three purposes: One, to maintain a priesthood for all of you which will mediate your relationship with Me and act as a bridge whereby redemption from Me can flow to you, and whereby sacrifices of repentance can flow from you to Me. Two, all strangers (merchants, tourists, travelers, those seeking truth, etc.) are to be treated with hospitality when they come to My land. You Israelites, therefore, are to be stewards of My funds set aside for this purpose and offer food and lodging in your own homes for all Gentile visitors."

"Three, you Israelites are to personally be stewards of My funds which are earmarked to take care of all widows and orphans in your community."

http://ldolphin.org/tithing.html

Now in addition to the ownership fee (the tithe) which the Israelites were to bring to God each year, they were to additionally give the Lord free-will gifts and offerings. Generally speaking, these free-will gifts and offerings were used to build the temple, repair the temple, furnish it, and in effect keep the religious activity of the nation operational economically. In addition, the Israelites were to give gifts to support the prophets. (Tithes were never used for prophets or teachers rabbis.) However, the tenth God specifically set aside for certain purposes.

Hmm,there is also the issue of these citizens were GIVEN land,quite a bit different than our model there as well :beatdeadhorse:

[81artmonk]

He never explained what type of social justice he was talking about? So Without an explanation and just his ranting, I find it hard to even formulate an opinion on this topic.

[AsburySkinsFan]

God demands?...whatever happened to love and mercy?

Heck yeah God demands...do you really want to take THAT argument?

Still don't see where God demanded we give to the poor in your example,by modern comparison a right to work and soup kitchens would satisfy your example:evilg:...keeping in mind your example is from a theocracy,which is verbotten under our constitution.

And yet I still don't see Christians leaving the last two rows of their harvest ungathered. What's more is that as Christians in a representative democracy we have the right...nay the duty to impact the way our government spends our tax dollars (read two rows of harvest). Also if you think that there are enough soup kitchens around to employ the poor and to feed them at the same time then I might be tempted to agree with you...but as it stands right now there aren't.

The tithe is a interesting example which was directed solely to the priesthood,if we are going to shift responsibility to our government should we then not tithe?.

Which is why I specifically cited a case where giving to the poor was mandated over and above the tithe.

Hmm,there is also the issue of these citizens were GIVEN land,quite a bit different than our model there as well :beatdeadhorse:

Oh come on now that dog simply won't hunt. We talk all the time in church that it is God who gives us the ability to work and to provide for our families, how is that any different than God giving a parcel of land to a Jewish tribe? Answer, it is not.

[AsburySkinsFan]

He never explained what type of social justice he was talking about? So Without an explanation and just his ranting, I find it hard to even formulate an opinion on this topic.

You can't formulate an opinion on this topic when Beck is obviously hijacking the term social justice and manipulating it in such a way as to further his Communist=Nazi rant (which is simply nonsensical to begin with) and then using that rant to call people out of their churches?! My goodness, what exactly WOULD it take for you to develop an opinion on the matter? I think more likely the problem is that you don't WANT to express an opinion against Beck, but that's just my opinion.

[AsburySkinsFan]

At what point do people start not giving crap what this idiot says?

When people stop listening to him.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I think a can of worms was just opened. Eschatalogical discussions are a big divider among Christians.

You're right that it is a big divide, and you're right to note that it is along the lines of how Christians understand the Eschaton. Those who believe that Christ is bringing the Kingdom with Him at the 2nd Coming tend to follow my description (or something along those lines) however, those who lean more Amillennial (no 2nd Coming) typically understand that the Kingdom of God IS supposed to be established BY the Church, a prime example of that is the Roman Catholic Church. There are some conservative Christians who blend the two (Zionists, and some Fundamentalists) who blend 2nd Coming theology with the idea that the church is supposed to establish the Kingdom of God in a very real political sense on Earth before the 2nd coming, add to that an unhealthy does of nationalism and watch out.