Robertson: Haiti 'cursed' since Satanic pact

[Guest Spearfeather]

Every life has a meaning and purpose whether they are a christian or not

Like I said, guess it depends on what your definition of " meaning " and " purpose " is.

[Bang]

Like I said, guess it depends on what your definition of " meaning " and " purpose " is.

I think it's more to do with what your definition is not.

I don't share your belief, but I strongly urge you to rethink this notion that because of that my life has no meaning or purpose. If I ever needed a reason to believe otherwise, a single look into my son's eyes is all it takes for me to believe that my life has both.

What you seem to be saying is that I should not work to provide my son a good life, that I should not instill in him any values (which may surprise you to find are much like your own, without the belief in a Heaven to entice me, or a Hell to threaten me onto the path of being a decent person.).

Without this ever present idea of an afterlife, I simply shouldn't bother to try and mold my son into a good citizen, or to provide him with the best education I can afford. I should not bother to try and give him a better step forward in life than I have had, and instill in him these values to do the same for his children. I should not work hard myself to achieve anything, I should not enjoy because it's all pointless. I should not be charitable, I should not care for my neighbors, I may as well just become a degenerate and enjoy every vice that comes along, simply because I haven't any reason not to.

I firmly believe you're wrong. Life is much more than simple faith. Life has plenty of meaning, plenty of purpose. And somehow, even though people like you have told me otherwise all my life, I still strive to persevere, to better myself and build a better future for my family, so that they may in turn do the same for my grandchildren, and their children, etc.

Somehow, no matter how often someone like you tells me I'm wrong, or that I'll be eternally punished for a lack of belief, I continue. Somehow I view you and your faith with a willingness to understand and accept, even if I don't believe or agree. If your belief gives you peace, so be it. It is not mine to judge you for it, or from where you gather your strength to continue to do things in what you consider to be the right way.

And no matter how many times someone like you tells me that it's pointless to be this way. I always will. Again, I'd wish you could understand that, but it is more likely that your belief in somehow being superior to me because of your faith, you will not. And that is one thing I've never been able to understand.

~Bang

[techboy]

Like I said, guess it depends on what your definition of " meaning " and " purpose " is.

Well, here's the thing. I'm actually pretty familiar with the philosophical argument you're making, and your presentation of it has got to be one of the worst I've ever seen, from getting basic parts of it wrong, to your confrontational attitude tempered only slightly by later pretending that it's just an opinion and telling people to go in peace.

It's too late to salvage it now, so I suggest you engage in tactical withdrawl.

[Guest Spearfeather]

Yeah, I had a feeling you were going in this direction. Of course you should do all those things you mention with your son.

From what I understand, most scientist or cosmologist believe that the Universe will indeed one day dissappear. They're will be no memory from anyone OF anyone. You, your son, his children, nobody. There will be no record, no way to recall that anyone ever was here. In fact it would be as if nobody ever existed.

This is just a random example that I found.

The End of Everything – 10100 years and beyond

When the last black hole evaporates, all that will remain in the Universe are photons of radiation, and elementary particles that escaped capture by black holes. The temperature of the entire Universe will reach a final temperature just above absolute zero.

Dark energy may play some future role, continuing the expansion of the Universe, accelerating each of these elementary particles and photons away from each other until they're effectively cut off from one another. No future gravity will bring them together again.

Perhaps there will be another Big Bang someday. Perhaps the Universe is cyclical and the whole process will start up again.

Perhaps it won't, and this bleak future of a cold, dead Universe is all that awaits us. It's not happy, but it's awe inspiring to consider the long future ahead, and helps us appreciate the vibrant age we live in today.

-_______________________________________________________________

So with that scenario ahead. A scenario of ..... nothing, what would be the point?

Unless.

Unless there are things that last forever, that can extend, or travel outside of our dimension. Now you're talking about something that REALLY matters.

So, while doing these things for and with your son, I can only hope that you would instill in him the belief that even after his body is gone, there is a part of him that will last for eternity, instead of having him grow to believe that one day it will be as if he never existed, because one day we're all going to be gone.

[zoony]

well if it makes you feel any better, the earth will be swallowed up by the sun's expansion long before any of that.

[Bang]

Yeah, I had a feeling you were going in this direction.

"This direction"... how patronizing, as if I'm just coming up with an angle to refute your argument.

It's my life, and it's how I live.

And this business of what may happen in 10 thousand years is just as weak an argument as anything I've ever seen.

Regardless of your belief, I will continue to be the best person I can be, no matter if the earth is snuffed out in a thousand years, or if the nukes destroy it next week, despite any supposed reward or punishment.

The point is there is purpose beyond the boundaries of what you believe. And I don't need what you consider purpose to see it, to live it, and to accept the responsibility of it.

I rarely participate in any of these theological threads, because there's a great number of believers on this site who I hold in high regard and carry the utmost respect for, such as techboy, Asbury Skins Fan and ZGuy to name a few.

I believe in a "live and let live" principal, and I respect their beliefs and knowledge thereof, even if I don't agree.

In that spirit, I'll bow back out of this discussion.

~Bang

[Guest Spearfeather]

well if it makes you feel any better, the earth will be swallowed up by the sun's expansion long before any of that.

Either way, the result is the same.

[zoony]

Either way, the result is the same.

....

Well, here's the thing. I'm actually pretty familiar with the philosophical argument you're making, and your presentation of it has got to be one of the worst I've ever seen,

+1

You'd be doing Christians a favor in keeping your opinions to yourselves. You're doing much more harm than good.

[Guest Spearfeather]

"This direction"... how patronizing, as if I'm just coming up with an angle to refute your argument.

It's my life, and it's how I live.

And this business of what may happen in 10 thousand years is just as weak an argument as anything I've ever seen.

Regardless of your belief, I will continue to be the best person I can be, no matter if the earth is snuffed out in a thousand years, or if the nukes destroy it next week, despite any supposed reward or punishment.

The point is there is purpose beyond the boundaries of what you believe. And I don't need what you consider purpose to see it, to live it, and to accept the responsibility of it.

I rarely participate in any of these theological threads, because there's a great number of believers on this site who I hold in high regard and carry the utmost respect for, such as techboy, Asbury Skins Fan and ZGuy to name a few.

I believe in a "live and let live" principal, and I respect their beliefs and knowledge thereof, even if I don't agree.

In that spirit, I'll bow back out of this discussion.

~Bang

Wasn't trying to be patronizing. It's just, I've heard that argument before. So it didn't surprise me, that's all. Remember when you say you persevere despite having people tell you all your life the same thing I'm saying? Well I persevere also. I never said that you couldn't be a good father, never said anything condescending to you, or tried to condemn you, for anything. I just thought we we're debating the two sides. I said earlier that in my very first response I should have used words that didn't make my " then your life has no meaning" comment sound so personal. I was just trying to say that that belief of " No God, No soul " seems not to have much of a purpose in the big picture. Hey, it's just my opinion, and you have yours and I have mine. Somehow making this argument has made me out to be a bad Christian. I guess I should have initially said " Yeah, you might be right" to the person who said that his faith has eroded over the years. Would that have been what you wanted me to say. Would that have made me a good Christian in your eyes, even though that's not what I believe? Trust me man, I'm in no position to pass judgement on anyone here. Nor do I think anyone here is in that same position with me. If I offended someone, that was not my intent.

[Special K]

You'd be doing Christians a favor in keeping your opinions to yourselves. You're doing much more harm than good.

I've been praying for some sort of Divine Intervention on Spearfeather's posts since his original doosie to Predicto.

Oh, and Chachie, your picture messages cracked me up, lol

[Guest Spearfeather]

I've been praying for some sort of Divine Intervention on Spearfeather's posts since his original doosie to Predicto.

Oh, and Chachie, your picture messages cracked me up, lol

Thata boy. Way to add some thing to the discussion.

It appears your prayers have been answered

[Special K]

Thata boy.

Why thank-you

Way to add some thing to the discussion.

Hmmm...I wonder what should be said of your posts...

[Guest Spearfeather]

Why thank-you

Hmmm...I wonder what should be said of your posts...

I don't know, you tell me.

[Jumbo]

Thata boy. Way to add some thing to the discussion.

It appears your prayers have been answered

Just fyi, keeastman is female and a Christian and a very intelligent poster (even though a blonde--forum joke :evilg:) .

I know from your post count and log-in record you don't spend much time in this forum, though you have presumed to read others' moods and thoughts (incorrectly) along with just "not getting" some really simple things (prompting my original response to you). And, if you knew Corgaigh at all from interacting here, you would know that the idea that you angered him, or anyone else in the discussion so far, was laughable.

These folks are regulars who have far more "spirited" exchanges than this, and read far whackier posts every day without getting any feathers ruffled.

Most of the people who have said the same basic truths I offered about there being all kinds of meaning in the life of non-Christians or non-believers, have been Christians.

You seem to be unable to grasp that while you believe such could not be true for you, that is a quite different matter than stating something suggesting others who believe different can not have real meaning in their lives.

You really don't seem like a bad guy at all, and though you are oddly struggling to hear what so many diverse people are telling you about the ...unfortunate...way you try to present some of your positions, I am comfy with having taken a softer tone with you, though my actual points remain unchanged.

When I accused you of practicing willful ignorance as a likely explanation, I did so because I couldn't imagine how some simple realities could elude you. Do you really think an atheist (for instance) doesn't find meaning in raising a family, having friendships, succeeding in a profession, enjoying art and nature, or helping others, and most of the same things you probably like that don't directly involve some religious service or function. C'mon.

I almost flashed to a Clinton-esque moment when you said "it depends on your definition of meaning and purpose." Often after a comment like that, someone would just post a dictionary listing to make someone look foolish, but I won't. Just look them up and see how your effort to communicate keeps falling short.

If you'd simply say anything along the lines of "my beliefs about God make me think that my life without them would feel empty" it would be fine, though still open to discussion--like how would you know how you'd feel if you believed entirely differently than you do --but regardless of that, saying something like "without my kind of God-belief your life can't have real meaning or purpose" is not only pushing a severely limited perspective as Dan T. was noting, it's also potentially quite an insulting view to many. It's very presumptuous and well beyond what's logically justifiable as some objective statement.

Sticking with how deeply you feel enriched yourself via your beliefs is great. Asserting that others can't feel as great as you if they believe differently is quite questionable, to put it politely.

Peace.

[Rocky21]

I saw your comment, but as I am not "uberreligious" (really... ask anybody that's met me at the ES/RR Tailgate), I didn't feel like I was targeted. I suppose I should have known better.

That's cool. I was trying not to do a call out.

And for the record, I am trying not to let televangelists like Robertson and Falwell negatively reflect on my feelings toward organized religion.

[Bang]

Wasn't trying to be patronizing. It's just, I've heard that argument before. So it didn't surprise me, that's all. Remember when you say you persevere despite having people tell you all your life the same thing I'm saying? Well I persevere also. I never said that you couldn't be a good father, never said anything condescending to you, or tried to condemn you, for anything. I just thought we we're debating the two sides. I said earlier that in my very first response I should have used words that didn't make my " then your life has no meaning" comment sound so personal. I was just trying to say that that belief of " No God, No soul " seems not to have much of a purpose in the big picture. Hey, it's just my opinion, and you have yours and I have mine. Somehow making this argument has made me out to be a bad Christian. I guess I should have initially said " Yeah, you might be right" to the person who said that his faith has eroded over the years. Would that have been what you wanted me to say. Would that have made me a good Christian in your eyes, even though that's not what I believe? Trust me man, I'm in no position to pass judgement on anyone here. Nor do I think anyone here is in that same position with me. If I offended someone, that was not my intent.

Fair enough.

Whether or not you're a 'Good Christian" isn't what I was trying to get after. I stepped in to merely point out that there is meaning and purpose beyond that which gives you meaning and purpose. Far be it for me to judge you or your faith.

It's not an argument. Like I said, I don't believe, but I do not begrudge you your belief.

As Jumbo has said, you don't seem like a bad guy, maybe the way you've come off on this particular point colors you a bit arrogant, but then again maybe not. I'd be very hard pressed to make solid judgments like that based on reading just one of the viewpoints that makes you who you are.

Peace.

~Bang

[polywog999]

Pat Robertson knows way too much about SATAN! :evilg:

[Chachie]

Oh, and Chachie, your picture messages cracked me up, lol

Glad someone noticed.

[Mickalino]

In the spirit of full disclosure, I admit that I have lost my religious faith. It was issues like this, why bad things happen to innocent people, that eroded my faith over a period of several years.

Obviously, it is horribly tragic to see innocent people, women, children, babies, die a horrible death, if not suffering while alive.

But at the same time, speaking of apparent injustices, someone even more innocent than all of these Haitians, the most innocent, flawless, blameless man to walk the face of the earth, suffered one of the worst tortures ever, and perhaps the worst. It started long before the suffering on the cross. He was whipped 39 times by a cat of nine tails, with sharp shells on the end, which sliced his flesh so deep, you could see the meat and bones on the inside of him. It generally took 40 lashes to kill a person, so they got as close to killing him as possible, without doing so, by going with the 39. And this supposed injustice is the basis of faith for Christianity - not a belief that everything fair will happen to good people, and that "God works in mysterious ways" So, to question Christianity's faith, because of the fact that horrible things happen to good people, is ignoring the true core of the Christian faith.

In his word, it even says that Jesus also came to earth to experience (during his lifetime - not his torture and death) the same frustrations, and feelings of weakness and inadequecy that we experience. God's word explains that he had to deal with every single emotion that we experience, in order that we would have a have a High Priest who is familiar and can relate to our infirmities.

If Jesus suffered to the extent he did, it should not be a great surprise that any of us suffer. And he did so for our good. Not just so we could be redeemed and forgiven, but that he could relate to our trials, and effectively comfort us, knowing what we went through.