Explain the "Wait and See" Approach

[Henry]

Did you read about the contract yet? Final say is written into Shanahan's contract. If Snyder wants to override Shanahan, he has to be prepared to fire him.

Schottenheimer - fireable. Shanahan - unfireable.

Why is Shanahan unfireable? Since when are NFL contracts written in stone?

And is no one concerned about the dynamic between our coach and GM? If Allen is Shanahan's Ceratto is that really better? It's not like Shanahan is a personnel mastermind.

I'd love to climb to the mountaintop and say 'everything's completely different now!' but I've done that four times already this decade, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm a little cautious for number five.

[TankRizzo]

"wait and see" for me is in regards to my expectations. I'm highly optimistic about Shanny and Allen, esepcially after the presser the other day. I guess what my "wait and see" mainly pertains to is Snyder. Fool me once, shame on you. Is he going to get control anxiety and Vinny is going to pop up in the owner's box and then yank the rug out from under all of this? If Allen and Shanahan are given complete autonomy, I have 100% faith that they'll right the ship....it's what's lurking beneath that keeps my expectations at bay.

[MassSkinsFan]

Did you read about the contract yet? Final say is written into Shanahan's contract. If Snyder wants to override Shanahan, he has to be prepared to fire him.

Schottenheimer - fireable. Shanahan - unfireable.

Right. That's what we're waiting to (hopefully not) see. If Dan gets impatient with ShanWow and gives him the boot mid-season in 2011, I'll know we're doomed for Dan's lifetime. I'm leaning away from believing it will happen, but I've been burned repeatedly and it's just hard to line up for more of the same.

Just curious - if Shanahan is unfireable (see your last line) then how is it that Dan can be prepared to fire him? I admit I haven't seen the contract yet, but that's a 1 + 1 = 7 argument.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

When's the last time Dan fired a coach due to "impatience"?...

Zorn? He had to go, he was terrible. "Impatience" really had nothing to do with it.

Gibbs? He retired.

Spurrier? He quit.

Marty? Yeah, I suppose...although Snyder still told Marty he wanted him to remain as coach.

Norv? Yeah, I suppose...although Norv needed to be fired anyway. Snyder should have waited 3 more weeks to do it.

I highly doubt Shanahan will be effected by the moves Snyder made 8 years ago after only owning the Skins for 2 years. And even the guy he was "impatient" with told Shanahan to "jump at the chance" to coach the Skins if given the opportunity. I don't understand hanging onto the "Danny will get impatient!" mantra...seems like lazy rationalization.

As for "waiting and seeing", the only thing I'm waiting to see is how quickly we start consistently winning again, because I KNOW we will be...Shanahan has had something like a whopping three losing seasons out of FIFTEEN full seasons of coaching! lol...There's no need to "wait and see" if Shanahan can build and coach winning teams, because doing so has defined his entire coaching career. Numerous ex-players are all ecstatic to see him coaching again and have zero doubts that he'll succeed...so why should I at this point? What, you think these players no nothing about snyder? lol...Please. What they DO know is a helluva lot about Shanahan, far more than any of us do combined.

These players' faith in him, Shanny's coaching career, his only being out of the league for 12 months, his still immersing himself into football during his time off, bringing in a young, talented OC whose team seemed to march up and down the field at will, the details about Shanny and Allen's power, and seeing already how Snyder has been relinquishing his normal roles to Allen and fading back into the shadows are all signs that this is gonna work...the only thing I'm "waiting to see" is how soon.

[ThePreciating]

Just curious - if Shanahan is unfireable (see your last line) then how is it that Dan can be prepared to fire him? I admit I haven't seen the contract yet, but that's a 1 + 1 = 7 argument.

Because unlike players, a coach's contract is guaranteed. Firing Shanahan after next season is giving away nearly 30 million dollars, something Snyder is not likely to do, and something Allen is DEFINITELY not likely to do.

I don't know the exact numbers, but the hit for firing Schottenheimer pales in comparison, I'm sure.

[gibbsfan2018]

It means that we have been fooled by big name signs for the last 12 years. Most have not yielded dividends. I am not going to get exited about this move until it translates to wins on the field.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

It means that we have been fooled by big name signs for the last 12 years. Most have not yielded dividends. I am not going to get exited about this move until it translates to wins on the field.

I know you don't (or can't) mean it this way, but this line of thinking sometimes sounds like "I'm gonna wait and see if Allen and Shanahan can really do any better than Vinny and Zorn" lol ...

[The Waterboy]

In many threads here, people are claiming to take a "wait and see" approach on Allen/Shanahan.

Can you all clarify this? Do you mean you'll wait to see if we have a winning season this year? Do you mean you'll wait to see if we've won the division within five years? Do you mean you'll wait to see if Dan Snyder is still secretly pulling strings?

We have a great GM, we have a great coach.

What exactly are you waiting for? How long are you willing to patiently wait for it?

I'm am waiting to see if the owner has really,actually,truely bowed out of operations or if its just another slight of hand move and the pea has just been slipped under a different shell.

Is he still having dinner with players? Is he still the head talent scout? Is he still going for big name splashy $$$ FA? Vinny is still around until Feb at least according to statements attributed to him at his "firing" ... then what exactly happens.

Its been demonstrated over the last decade, changing coaches and executive vice presidents doesn't change the outcome. So, that only leaves the one constant - owner's involvement. Has it changed? I'll wait and see.

[suze109]

What Pez said.

Seriously ... for the last decade it's like I've been told the pool was open every year, and then found out there was no water in there when I dove in. And yup that makes ya fearful.

But I refuse to let that fear keep me sitting on the edge.

The old poolboy is gone and the pool finally has some competent management for a change.

Call me stupid, naive, crazy or all three, but I'm divin' in

[VRIEL1]

I'm not in the wait and see mode. I know we get burned every year when we get all excited, but I think there is a few reasons to be a bit more optimistic vs. how we have been in the past. Oh, don't get me wrong I've had rose colored glasses and drank from the cool aid every year except last year. We started out great and ended bad. You don't want to end a season on a bad note so the decline in production no matter the injuries rubbed me the wrong way. This year (2009) I was in a show me kinda mode. This year I kinda expected mediocracy and it didn't fail me or burn me in the end.

I know the owner has not changed. I know some of you have issues with the owner and how he does things, which is why I can understand people being hesitant about climbing back on the bandwagon. Totally understood. I have been pissed off and not happy for the last 3-4 yrs with how this organization has been settling for mediocracy. I've stopped purchasing Skins items so as to not line the owners pockets.

My issues were Snyder, Cerrato, and whoever they had as HC that didn't have the balls to say "stop, let me build my team and coach it." You'll never get Snyder to sell the team. The Skins are a cash cow. No owner in his right mind would sell a profitable team, they'd move it first. So we are kinda stuck with DS. My second issue was Cerrato whome I think fed into DS's ego and wouldn't put some things in check. Plus I think his own ego was so bad HC's had a hard time working for the team. Now that Cerrato is gone and we have a new GM hopefully he won't have a problem telling DS no at times. We have a HC that although some of you don't think is all that great he's better then Zorn. He's a proven HC. He's always had an awsome running game with a great OL. I think Kyle Shanahan coming in will help the passing attack and bring something new to the table for M. Shanahan. I'm a little scared of how young he is but if this thing kicks off well I could see a transition to Kyle being the HC in the future.

I know the Skins are going out of their way to make it feel like DS is not involved and because of it it feels fake. But I do think things have changed. Winning might take a year or two or more until the HC can get all the pieces to the puzzle he needs to run his offense but I'm willing to wait. I'd prefer they build through the draft but if they go out and pick up a few FA in order to get the job done I'll be ok with it.

BUT...... If DS allows the players to come to him and undermind the HC or fails to listen to Allen or Shanahan then I'm almost ready to bail and look for a new team to root for until DS does sell the team.

[Morning Wood]

My version means will Snyder allow these two the time to implement their plan and see it through, or will he get impatient and snap after a 5-11 season?

Gibbs 2.0 gave us stability for a few years - the fundamental flaw being Vinnie, and in retrospect, Gibbs' slow adaptation to "today's" game. The only other time we've come close to showing positive signs was Marty's one season. Anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together could see that we appeared to be headed in the right direction.... but we'll never know cause Dan pulled the plug.

For all intents and purposes, we have now been given exactly what we wanted - a seemingly competent GM and a coach who who has the proven record. Everything is roses and rainbows right now. But will it be allowed to ride out some bumps if need be? I will wait and see.

[4skins23]

I can't say it any better than this....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/06/AR2010010602367.html?wprss=rss_sports/redskins

[Califan007 The Constipated]

The only other time we've come close to showing positive signs was Marty's one season. Anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together could see that we appeared to be headed in the right direction....

How were we "heading in the right direction" under Marty?...Something tells me that if we had the exact same season this past year that we had in 2001 under Marty, 90% of the people who claim things were going "in the right direction" back then would have been saying "What, so we improved from absolutely pathetic to barely mediocre, and everyone thinks things are great now?...Forgive me if I don't get excited over yet another season of 8-8 mediocrity."...For as bad as Zorn's offense was this year, Marty's offense back then was 1,000 times worse.

[Morning Wood]

How were we "heading in the right direction" under Marty?...Something tells me that if we had the exact same season this past year that we had in 2001 under Marty, 90% of the people who claim things were going "in the right direction" back then would have been saying "What, so we improved from absolutely pathetic to barely mediocre, and everyone thinks things are great now?...Forgive me if I don't get excited over yet another season of 8-8 mediocrity."...For as bad as Zorn's offense was this year, Marty's offense back then was 1,000 times worse.

We went from an 0-5 start to finish 8-8. That is a remarkable improvement for ONE season. Very different from say... starting 6-2, then finishing 8-8. Zorn was given a second season, after showing a swift decline. Marty, after showing an obvious ascent, was shown the door.

Nobody is saying we were great after that one season... But we'll never know since Dan decided to dump him for a shiny new toy.

[Bang]

To me "Wait and See" means that anyone who expects an instant turnaround are going to be disappointed. We need 3 new starting OL minimum. Possibly a new quarterback. New running back(s). We need outside linebackers, we only have one on the squad. We need a cornerback, possibly two. We need a safety. We need a kicker.

Too many needs to address in one year. By year two I would expect us to start moving forward.

~Bang

[Thinking Skins]

My "wait and see" is just to see if we do things differently. If its just lipstick on a pig, then its still a pig. If we're still going after all the big name free agents and trading away draft picks and trying to reinvent how to build a team by ignoring our needs, then I'll say we're the same team under a different front office.

[Thinking Skins]

That is a good point, any one who says "wait and see" should automatically give up their right to come back later and say that hiring Shanahan was a bad move, because the fact of the matter is at the time of his hire (the time that Snyder had to make the hire) they did not disagree, they thought it may work, but just didn't want to put their full support into it because they don't want to risk looking stupid if it fails.

Not true. Just because I'm not excited about the move doesn't mean I support it. When Buford was doing his fan card campaign, I expressed a bit of regret because I feared that all that would happen is that we'd get another lapdog in his place. I'm not going to call Allen and Shanahan lapdogs, but I'm not going to say that they're the best at making personnel decisions either. So just like with the Zorn hire, I notice the change at the surface level, but I wonder what it really means and whether its something to get excited about.

[Thinking Skins]

i appreciate the optimism, but i don't see how anyone who has followed this team for the past ten years can give snyder the benefit of the doubt anymore. That's simply baffling to me.

qft

[4skins23]

How were we "heading in the right direction" under Marty?...Something tells me that if we had the exact same season this past year that we had in 2001 under Marty, 90% of the people who claim things were going "in the right direction" back then would have been saying "What, so we improved from absolutely pathetic to barely mediocre, and everyone thinks things are great now?...Forgive me if I don't get excited over yet another season of 8-8 mediocrity."...For as bad as Zorn's offense was this year, Marty's offense back then was 1,000 times worse.

Actually, Zorns offense was pretty good this year. Especially the last half. How many games were 21 points or higher? Compare that to when Gibbs 2.0 was coach. I think it was more of just not playing as a team.

I stand corrected. The offense did not put points like under Gibbs 2.0.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

We went from an 0-5 start to finish 8-8. That is a remarkable improvement for ONE season. Very different from say... starting 6-2, then finishing 8-8. Zorn was given a second season, after showing a swift decline. Marty, after showing an obvious ascent, was shown the door.

Nobody is saying we were great after that one season... But we'll never know since Dan decided to dump him for a shiny new toy.

Going from 0-5 to 8-8 is only impressive if the team is impressive in doing so...

In 2001:

- We scored a whopping 32 points in the first 5 games

- We only scored TWO TDs in the first 5 games

- We were outscored by 80 points in the first 5 games

It would be practically impossible NOT to improve from that monstrosity of a start. Improving on that pathetic performance isn't anything to brag about or get excited about. Especially when the improvement consisted of:

- Beating the Panthers, who ended up 1-15. And we needed OT to do it...

- We scored over 20 points three times in those last 11 games...

- We lost to the 5-11 Cowboys

- 5 of our 8 wins were against losing teams

- We finished the season 3-3

So we went from absolute pathetic to mediocre...

I'm not saying Marty should have been fired...in fact, back then I was all for bringing him back another year, at least. Marty had a career that showed he more than likely would have eventually turned the team into consistent winners at the very least, even though his 1st year back was pretty horrid. Not sure how long it would have taken, though...and in San Diego his first year he went 8-8, then in his second year he went 4-12 and everyone in the press thought it was a foregone conclusion that he'd be fired.

But I also don't view his one year here with rose-colored glasses...I remember fully how bad that team played that year. Yes, they had a 3-game streak where they beat teams with winning records, but so what...Hell, Zorn had a 4 game winning streak against teams that ended up with better records in 2008.

[TheLongshot]

To me "Wait and See" means that anyone who expects an instant turnaround are going to be disappointed. We need 3 new starting OL minimum. Possibly a new quarterback. New running back(s). We need outside linebackers, we only have one on the squad. We need a cornerback, possibly two. We need a safety. We need a kicker.

Too many needs to address in one year. By year two I would expect us to start moving forward.

~Bang

It is a possibility, but there are teams with less talent than have turned it around in a year. There isn't much doubt that this team underachieved in many areas and can get better. I wouldn't expect it to be a great team, but I think we can be competitive next year. Course, we will have to "wait and see" if the talent can be collected to do that.

My "wait and see" is to see if we can stick to a plan longer than a couple of years. Even under Gibbs he made a major change to the offensive scheme midstream. A big name by itself isn't going to get me excited, because we've been down that path before.

[Larry Brown #43]

I think the Wait and See approach has more to do with Snyder than with Allen and Shanahan.

Yes, exactly. I'm very optimistic that things will work out, and I see some signs of true, positive change. I want to believe everything will work out wonderfully.

But as for the wait-and-see approach, yes, it has more to do with Snyder than it does with Shanny or Allen.

When things haven't gone well, Snyder does have a history of making coaches uncomfortable to the point where they either quit or are forced to work under conditions he knows will make them miserable.

Marty: You can stay, but you can't have full control anymore.

Spurrier: You can stay, but we're cutting your favorite QB, and we're picking your QB from now on. (Last thing Spurrier said on his way out the door: "I thought I'd at least be able to pick my QB.")

Zorn: You can stay, but we've got someone else who's going to be calling plays from now on.

You can argue that these were moves were necessary, but these decisions were all made after Snyder had decided that he was no longer infatuated with the coach. In my opinion, each move listed above was a calculated move to make the coach lose interest in the job, and hopefully quit.

If Snyder loses interest in Shanny at some point, it really doesn't matter what is written into the contract, because Snyder has shown an ability to make coaches miserable when they fall out of his favor.

Again, I DON'T think that will happen here with Shanny. I bolded that sentence so my words are not misconstrued. I really do feel that we are witnessing true change with this organization. But to criticize fans for taking a wait-and-see approach to how Snyder will handle this whole arrangement is just silly.

It's not about waiting to see how many games we win next year. It's about waiting to see how Snyder reacts if things don't go well for a couple of years.

[MassSkinsFan]

These players' faith in him, Shanny's coaching career, his only being out of the league for 12 months, his still immersing himself into football during his time off, bringing in a young, talented OC whose team seemed to march up and down the field at will, the details about Shanny and Allen's power, and seeing already how Snyder has been relinquishing his normal roles to Allen and fading back into the shadows are all signs that this is gonna work...the only thing I'm "waiting to see" is how soon.

I agree with the logic here, but I'm still not convinced. It's more than the "impatience mantra" that bothers me. I see signs of incompetent management that raise doubts for me and frankly I'm waiting to see if the Dan or the organization he's built hamstring the best efforts of these two football pros.

You make it sound like I'm being stupid and I assure you I'm not. Suspicious definitely, superstitious maybe, stupid no way.

Like every other Skins fan I can't wait to see things turn around; but just because I don't have total blind faith doesn't make me the enemy. That would be a Cowpukes fan.

[MassSkinsFan]

to criticize fans for taking a wait-and-see approach to how Snyder will handle this whole arrangement is just silly.

It's not about waiting to see how many games we win next year. It's about waiting to see how Snyder reacts if things don't go well for a couple of years.

Thank you - this is exactly the point.

[stevenaa]

I got everything I wanted...

- New respectable GM

- New respectable coach (who by the way is bringing in a young coordinator who could stabilize this franchise for years to come)

- Snyder stepping back (there is no way in hell Shanahan signed on without telling snyder to back off the team)

I am buying in now.... the rest of you all can wait if you want, but fan is short for fanatic, and as such, I like to jump into the lake headfirst without looking. If things do fall apart... its not like I am going to be more or less miserable than the people with the wait and see attitude other than the fact that they will spout off "I told you so"

Come on folks... wait and see is no fun! Life is too short! Jump into fray now and enjoy the ride

You know you want to

Pez for the win. I largely divorced myself from the team this past season. Following only on a cursory basis.

Snyder has done exactly what we've clamoured for. I'm all in again. I have no doubt that Shanahan and Allen have control. Don't know if they'll be successful or not, there are plenty of teams with normal front office structures that don't win. But it won't be because Snyder is calling the shots. I'm not sure he was really doing a whole lot of that the last couple of years, but he certainly did undermine Zorn and contribute to the circus. That won't be possible with this current structure unless he really goes off the deep end and I don't see that happening. At the very worse, I believe the franchise will be respectable again and the team will be competitive. That is such leaps and bounds from were we are, it's almost unthinkable.