Explain the "Wait and See" Approach

[Morning Wood]

Going from 0-5 to 8-8 is only impressive if the team is impressive in doing so...

We improved in the one stat category that matters most. Lombardi trophies aren't issued for most points scored.

But you're harping on this Marty thing more than I ever intended. I brought him up only to illustrate my point towards the subject here - which is: define wait & see. That was the last full changing of the guard, and the last time Snyder was hands off. Didn't last very long. So my point is, if Shanahallen gets off to a slow start....

[Califan007 The Constipated]

When things haven't gone well, Snyder does have a history of making coaches uncomfortable to the point where they either quit or are forced to work under conditions he knows will make them miserable.

Marty: You can stay, but you can't have full control anymore.

Same thing was said to Holmgren in Seattle, and he didn't quit...and even got a Super Bowl birth as the result. Maybe Marty should have done the same...And you should read Art's take on the Season Of Marty for some damn good reasons why he needed to have that control removed from his hands.

Zorn: You can stay, but we've got someone else who's going to be calling plays from now on.

"Staying" in the case of Zorn was only for a few weeks longer lol...it had nothing whatsoever to do with him keeping his job.

You can argue that these were moves were necessary, but these decisions were all made after Snyder had decided that he was no longer infatuated with the coach. In my opinion, each move listed above was a calculated move to make the coach lose interest in the job, and hopefully quit.

I see Snyder as far more of a "**** it, you're fired!" type of guy myself...emotional manipulations seemed unnecessary. Take, for example, the removing of Zorn from controlling all playcalling. That came across as an act of frustration after seeing the offense crap out against yet another winless team far, FAR more than some calculated measure to make Zorn lose interest in remaining coach.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

We improved in the one stat category that matters most. Lombardi trophies aren't issued for most points scored.

YOU said the improvement was "impressive"...the improvement was not impressive, not when you are "improving" on something that not only was scraping the the bottom of the barrel, but was several feet beneath the barrel. It's statistically impossible to NOT improve on that start, in terms of wins, stats, offense...everything.

But you're harping on this Marty thing more than I ever intended. I brought him up only to illustrate my point towards the subject here - which is: define wait & see. That was the last full changing of the guard, and the last time Snyder was hands off. Didn't last very long. So my point is, if Shanahallen gets off to a slow start....

I'm "harping" on your logic used...and showing how it's faulty. Since you used Marty, that's what I used as well. Too many around here seem to chalk up Snyder's moves after Marty's "on the right track" season as nothing more than "little Danny" wanting his toy back, and completely gloss over all the extremely valid reasons why Marty's season doesn't deserve to be seen in such a positive light. That's what I pointed out.

[MassSkinsFan]

I see Snyder as far more of a "**** it, you're fired!" type of guy myself...emotional manipulations seemed unnecessary. Take, for example, the removing of Zorn from controlling all playcalling. That came across as an act of frustration after seeing the offense crap out against yet another winless team far, FAR more than some calculated measure to make Zorn lose interest in remaining coach.

That is impatience and incompetence all rolled into one. And I'm more concerned with the incompetence - hell, I was impatient with our flaccid O at that point too. But there's a right way to manage that situation, and there's the way it was done. The only way it could have been more damaging to Zorn and to the team was to dress him in a schoolboy outfit, call a presser, send him to the corner and put a dunce cap on him.

This sort of ineptitude worries me. Shanny is a pro and deserves and expects to be treated like one. Will Snyder be able to keep up the effort it obviously takes him to do that?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

That is impatience and incompetence all rolled into one. And I'm more concerned with the incompetence - hell, I was impatient with our flaccid O at that point too. But there's a right way to manage that situation, and there's the way it was done. The only way it could have been more damaging to Zorn and to the team was to dress him in a schoolboy outfit, call a presser, send him to the corner and put a dunce cap on him.

This sort of ineptitude worries me. Shanny is a pro and deserves and expects to be treated like one. Will Snyder be able to keep up the effort it obviously takes him to do that?

Oh, I agree with the impatience and incompetence part...I was just saying it wasn't a calculated move to make Zorn want to quit.

And I also see Snyder as someone who has little use for anyone who he doesn't respect professionally, and all the time, money and resources in the world for those he does respect professionally. I think a few too many claim Snyder's perceived impatience is not tied to anything external, it's just some internal "spoiled brat" thing that can go off at any moment over the smallest of things. That doesn't ring true to me, for Snyder or practically anyone else for that matter.

[Morning Wood]

YOU said the improvement was "impressive"...the improvement was not impressive, not when you are "improving" on something that not only was scraping the the bottom of the barrel, but was several feet beneath the barrel. It's statistically impossible to NOT improve on that start, in terms of wins, stats, offense...everything.

My full original post, ....

My version means will Snyder allow these two the time to implement their plan and see it through, or will he get impatient and snap after a 5-11 season?

Gibbs 2.0 gave us stability for a few years - the fundamental flaw being Vinnie, and in retrospect, Gibbs' slow adaptation to "today's" game. The only other time we've come close to showing positive signs was Marty's one season. Anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together could see that we appeared to be headed in the right direction.... but we'll never know cause Dan pulled the plug.

For all intents and purposes, we have now been given exactly what we wanted - a seemingly competent GM and a coach who who has the proven record. Everything is roses and rainbows right now. But will it be allowed to ride out some bumps if need be? I will wait and see.

I never claimed it was "impressive" - as you so "quoted" me. I said we showed "positive signs". If you're going to argue my point of view, fine. But please do not put words in my mouth to serve your purpose.

[Skins24]

Dan could only last one year without having control. Wait and see if he really got the message this time.

I'm waiting to see if he can let the people he hired do their job. I'm waiting to see if Allen is more than a figurehead hired primarily to lure a coach here that has a history of making bad personnel decisions.

I appreciate the optimism, but I don't see how anyone who has followed this team for the past ten years can give Snyder the benefit of the doubt anymore. That's simply baffling to me.

So, what exactly was the set up in Gibbs 2.0?

Could have sworn we've seen the "step back" when he was here :whoknows:

We now have a FO set up that's even better. And a coach that Snyder respects just as much.

Since the hiring of Allen, maybe I've missed it, but I have not seen any evidence to suggest Snyder would be more invovled than what we saw during Gibbs 2.0.

Why should we doubt that he'd step back again? <- not a retorical question

[Larry Brown #43]

Same thing was said to Holmgren in Seattle, and he didn't quit...and even got a Super Bowl birth as the result. Maybe Marty should have done the same...

With who calling the personnel shots, Dan and Vinny? Somehow at that point I don't think Dan was interested in hearing Marty's opinion on who should be in charge of personnel. And look how quickly Vinny was rehired.

I see Snyder as far more of a "**** it, you're fired!" type of guy myself...emotional manipulations seemed unnecessary. Take, for example, the removing of Zorn from controlling all playcalling. That came across as an act of frustration after seeing the offense crap out against yet another winless team far, FAR more than some calculated measure to make Zorn lose interest in remaining coach.

I don't see it that way at all. I see it more as a mental grinding down into submission over time. In '08, after a we lost a few games, it was leaked that "the honeymoon is over" for Zorn. This year, we bring in a consultant to look over his shoulder. Not enough for you Jim? Ok, well now we're taking your playcalling duties.

I think Zorn knew exactly what was going on, and I think the reason he acted oblivious to his impending doom--claiming to have already worked up an offseason schedule for 2010--was to stick it to Snyder. Basically letting him know that, "hey, I'm not going anywhere until you fire me."

Particularly with Spurrier-- Cutting Spurrier's beloved Wuerrfel was a passive aggressive move that Snyder absolutely HAD to know would make Spurrier lose interest in the job. Spurrier came to the NFL for three reasons, in my opinion: 1) for the money, 2) for the challenge of trying his system in the NFL, and 3) to have a chance to continue working with Danny Wuerrfel.

[MassSkinsFan]

And I also see Snyder as someone who has little use for anyone who he doesn't respect professionally, and all the time, money and resources in the world for those he does respect professionally. I think a few too many claim Snyder's perceived impatience is not tied to anything external, it's just some internal "spoiled brat" thing that can go off at any moment over the smallest of things. That doesn't ring true to me, for Snyder or practically anyone else for that matter.

That's a good point. I share the same view. I do admit that sometimes I get so frustrated that I have a knee-jerk reaction that makes an image of Dan Snyder sitting in a crib waving the Redskins around like a rattle pop into my head. I know it's not fair and it's not really accurate, but it gives me an object for my venting.

[TheLongshot]

Oh, I agree with the impatience and incompetence part...I was just saying it wasn't a calculated move to make Zorn want to quit.

Well, it wasn't a calculated move on Snyder's part. It might have been one on Vinny's part, since it seems obvious that he was disenchanted with Zorn this season. Then again, it could have just have been that Vinny knew his job was on the line and decided to throw Zorn under the bus.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

My full original post, ....

My version means will Snyder allow these two the time to implement their plan and see it through, or will he get impatient and snap after a 5-11 season?

Gibbs 2.0 gave us stability for a few years - the fundamental flaw being Vinnie, and in retrospect, Gibbs' slow adaptation to "today's" game. The only other time we've come close to showing positive signs was Marty's one season. Anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together could see that we appeared to be headed in the right direction.... but we'll never know cause Dan pulled the plug.

For all intents and purposes, we have now been given exactly what we wanted - a seemingly competent GM and a coach who who has the proven record. Everything is roses and rainbows right now. But will it be allowed to ride out some bumps if need be? I will wait and see.

I never claimed it was "impressive" - as you so "quoted" me. I said we showed "positive signs". If you're going to argue my point of view, fine. But please do not put words in my mouth to serve your purpose.

I'm sorry, you said it was "remarkable", which is a synonym of "impressive":

We went from an 0-5 start to finish 8-8. That is a remarkable improvement for ONE season. Very different from say... starting 6-2, then finishing 8-8. Zorn was given a second season, after showing a swift decline. Marty, after showing an obvious ascent, was shown the door.

Nobody is saying we were great after that one season... But we'll never know since Dan decided to dump him for a shiny new toy.

So, same thing...

[Califan007 The Constipated]

With who calling the personnel shots, Dan and Vinny? Somehow at that point I don't think Dan was interested in hearing Marty's opinion on who should be in charge of personnel. And look how quickly Vinny was rehired.

Irrelevant to the point I was making, though, which was that taking back some control that a head coach had isn't and should be seen merely as a ploy to make that coach want to quit...and can even lead to greater success.

I don't see it that way at all. I see it more as a mental grinding down into submission over time. In '08, after a we lost a few games, it was leaked that "the honeymoon is over" for Zorn. This year, we bring in a consultant to look over his shoulder. Not enough for you Jim? Ok, well now we're taking your playcalling duties.

You truly see Snyder as some sort of "Dr. Evil" with warped plots to find nefarious ways to get rid of coaches, huh lol...he doesn't have to concoct ways to fire coaches. In fact, he would have fired Zorn if Shanahan had agreed to come on mid-season. No convoluted shenanigans needed.

Particularly with Spurrier-- Cutting Spurrier's beloved Wuerrfel was a passive aggressive move that Snyder absolutely HAD to know would make Spurrier lose interest in the job. Spurrier came to the NFL for three reasons, in my opinion: 1) for the money, 2) for the challenge of trying his system in the NFL, and 3) to have a chance to continue working with Danny Wuerrfel.

"Passive-aggressive" move? Ok, now we're deep into psychoanalysis territory lol...Wuerrfel should have never been in the NFL to begin with, nonetheless on the Skins roster. Spurrier wouldn't or couldn't do the right and best thing, so "Snyderrato" overrid him and did it for him. Whether or not they SHOULD have is up to debate...but chalking up that move as anything but a response to the stupidity of Spurrier's decision-making would be folly.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

That's a good point. I share the same view. I do admit that sometimes I get so frustrated that I have a knee-jerk reaction that makes an image of Dan Snyder sitting in a crib waving the Redskins around like a rattle pop into my head. I know it's not fair and it's not really accurate, but it gives me an object for my venting.

:rotflmao:

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Well, it wasn't a calculated move on Snyder's part. It might have been one on Vinny's part, since it seems obvious that he was disenchanted with Zorn this season. Then again, it could have just have been that Vinny knew his job was on the line and decided to throw Zorn under the bus.

I thought it might have been a "calculated" move on Vinny's part from him fearing for his job, to be honest...he may have been desparate to do anything and everything to improve the offense (which was THE biggest problem during the first half of the season). But not as a way of getting Zorn to want to quit or anything...

[TheLongshot]

"Passive-aggressive" move? Ok, now we're deep into psychoanalysis territory lol...Wuerrfel should have never been in the NFL to begin with, nonetheless on the Skins roster. Spurrier wouldn't or couldn't do the right and best thing, so "Snyderrato" overrid him and did it for him. Whether or not they SHOULD have is up to debate...but chalking up that move as anything but a response to the stupidity of Spurrier's decision-making would be folly.

If we had a GM at the time, he would have every right to kick Woeful off the team. That being said, getting Rob Jackson was hardly an improvement.

[Mursilis]

We have a great GM, we have a great coach.

Same owner though.

[ldysknzfn1]

That is a good point, any one who says "wait and see" should automatically give up their right to come back later and say that hiring Shanahan was a bad move, because the fact of the matter is at the time of his hire (the time that Snyder had to make the hire) they did not disagree, they thought it may work, but just didn't want to put their full support into it because they don't want to risk looking stupid if it fails.

I won't say this and I am one that said "wait & see". My "wait & see" approach is from years of becoming one of the ones who got overly excited about things way too early in the past, only to have them turn out like the last few years. I don't know that anyone can say what is bad or good until it comes about. You can "think" it's good or bad but not know for sure until it actually happens. Most ppl here called for JC to take the reigns from noodle arm and now look at what most folks are saying about JC. That's just one example.

"Wait & see" to me means not stickin my neck out on the chopping block again only to have the guillotine blade not sharp enough to handle the slice in one pass but having to lower it over and over again to get the job done. Isn't that a nice mental picture?

[ouvan59]

The results were mediocre. We had two playoff appearances (which is great compared to the other results) but both were ones in which we backed in (with winning streaks at the end)

You need to look up the definition of "backed in". If there were a negative take contest you would be a superstar. Winning 4 or 5 straight at the end of season is the exact oppositive of "backing in." And I'm sorry but winning on the road in any playoff game doesn't constitute playing horribly. WE WON A PLAYOFF GAME ON THE ROAD. Do you have any idea how hard that is to do?

I'll never get why so some people are so focused on the negative that they completely dismiss the positive. Unbelievable!

[Larry Brown #43]

Irrelevant to the point I was making, though, which was that taking back some control that a head coach had isn't and should be seen merely as a ploy to make that coach want to quit...and can even lead to greater success.

Can lead to greater success if the right people are installed to make decisions. And I don't think Snyder wanted Marty's input at that point on who should be making decisions.

You truly see Snyder as some sort of "Dr. Evil" with warped plots to find nefarious ways to get rid of coaches, huh lol...he doesn't have to concoct ways to fire coaches. In fact, he would have fired Zorn if Shanahan had agreed to come on mid-season. No convoluted shenanigans needed.

No, I really don't see him that way. I WANT to like him. I just want him to give me reasons to like him. If you go back to my posts during Gibbs II, I was as pro-Snyder as just about anyone around here. I immediately forgave Snyder for any past mistakes, because I felt that bringing Gibbs back was amazing, awesome, and wonderful, and as far as I was concerned, gave Snyder a clean slate.

My enthusiasm even carried over into the Zorn hire initially. I gave Dan and Vinny the benefit of the doubt, and thought they were really onto something in finding Zorn. (I was dead wrong about Zorn. Nice guy, but should not have been hired.)

So I'm really not pro-Snyder or anti-Snyder. Some on this board hate Snyder and will never feel otherwise, and some love him and will never feel otherwise. I'm in neither camp. I call it as I see it. And particularly as the '09 season wore on, I saw shades of the old Snyder re-emerge.

As for finding nefarious ways of getting rid of coaches--there's a financial stake in doing so. I suppose not all coaching contracts are written the same way, but typically if a guy quits you don't have to pay him what you would if you were to fire him.

"Passive-aggressive" move? Ok, now we're deep into psychoanalysis territory lol...Wuerrfel should have never been in the NFL to begin with, nonetheless on the Skins roster. Spurrier wouldn't or couldn't do the right and best thing, so "Snyderrato" overrid him and did it for him. Whether or not they SHOULD have is up to debate...but chalking up that move as anything but a response to the stupidity of Spurrier's decision-making would be folly.

Yes, Wuerrfel was not an NFL QB. But that's beside the point. Spurrier was hired to run his system with his players. It turned out to be a disaster. But I'm of the opinion that you let the man do his job and do it his way, and if it fails, you fire him. But don't undercut him. Let's not forget...Spurrier was also a big Kenny Watson fan, but Dan and Vinny cut him to make room for Sultan McCullough (yikes). What I'm saying is, Spurrier's input became marginalized once Snyder lost interest in Spurrier. I just don't think that's the way to run a railroad. If you have to fire a guy, you fire him. But as long as he's in that position, you give him enough rope to hang himself with, but you let him do it his way.

If Spurrier's allegiance to Wuerrfel ends up sinking him, you let it sink him. But the moment you undercut him is the moment he checks out mentally. And it becomes clear to the players that he's no longer in charge.

[bubba9497]

not to expect anything because of Shanny's previous success

Very few high profile moves have come close to the expectations imagined.

I'll celebrate and get excited about playoff wins and division titles, etc.... when they actually happen

[ThePreciating]

The picture being presented to us is that Shanahan and Allen share full control (with Shanahan being the final say in the event of a complete disagreement). Snyder will sit back and sign the checks without being involved in decision making.

If this truly is the reality of the situation, then I think Dan Snyder is the best owner in the NFL.

[Larry Brown #43]

The picture being presented to us is that Shanahan and Allen share full control (with Shanahan being the final say in the event of a complete disagreement). Snyder will sit back and sign the checks without being involved in decision making.

If this truly is the reality of the situation, then I think Dan Snyder is the best owner in the NFL.

I have said it before: Snyder could be beloved, and I mean BELOVED, in this town, if he chose to be. But he didn't allow himself to be for a variety of reasons, including an inexplicable allegiance to a marginally competent stooge who would not and will not be hired by another NFL team.

Now, Snyder has taken a step that COULD ultimately put himself on a path to being beloved--or at the very least, liked--in DC. He said something interesting in an interview yesterday. He said, "it's going to be a great decade."

He can make it so by allowing this thing to work. He just can't allow himself to screw it up.

[Henry]

So, what exactly was the set up in Gibbs 2.0?

Could have sworn we've seen the "step back" when he was here :whoknows:

Well we know Dan Snyder was part of the equation. He and Vinnie may have been deferntial to Gibbs. I'm sure they were. But I'm also guessing Gibbs didn't make every personnel decision all by his lonesome. One of Gibbs' great qualities is he is willing to take the brunt of any mistake and give away credit for any job well done. Unfortunately, doing that makes it very hard to know who's really accountable for what.

We now have a FO set up that's even better. And a coach that Snyder respects just as much.

How do we know that? Because Snyder and the guys he's paying say so?

Since the hiring of Allen, maybe I've missed it, but I have not seen any evidence to suggest Snyder would be more invovled than what we saw during Gibbs 2.0.

The evidence is 1999-2009. I don't see how you can erase those ten years based on a few weeks.

But let's pretend we can.

Allen was hired about a month ago. He was announced as the guy making all the decisions now. So who do you think made the decision to hire Shanahan, Allen or Snyder? I mean, Allen was the guy who introduced Shanahan, not Snyder, right?

So based on what Allen says and does I guess Snyder had no input on the hiring of Shanahan.

Show of hands: Who thinks that's really the case?

You all can take Snyder's word that he's not doing anything. You can take Allen's and Shanahan's too if you want.

Me? I'm not saying Snyder hasn't changed, but I'm going to wait and see. I still don't see why that's such a crazy idea.

Why should we doubt that he'd step back again? <- not a retorical question

We don't know how much he's ever 'stepped back.' What we DO know is that as long as he's owned the team, it's consistently traded away draft picks and overpaid for free agents that don't fit whatever scheme we are running at the time. This has been true of every single coach except for Schottenheimer, who was fired after one season for not giving up total control of personnel moves.

[Morning Wood]

What we DO know is that as long as he's owned the team, it's consistently traded away draft picks and overpaid for free agents that don't fit whatever scheme we are running at the time. This has been true of every single coach except for Schottenheimer, who was fired after one season for not giving up total control of personnel moves.

Thank you for echoing the basic point I tried to make earlier. The one time he agreed to get out the way, he couldn't stand it. Same reason I will wait and see now. I want to believe Dan has the team's best interest in mind, and will finally just be an owner. History states otherwise though.

[Sikbug]

I'll wait and see the faces on all the Giants fans I work with when we win the Super Bowl next season... lolz