Another team enters the Shanahan chase

[Oldfan]

Shanny was 21 games OVER 500 WITHOUT Elway, including 4 playoff appearances, one season hitting 13-3, and constant top 10 offenses.

I listed two factors which Shanahan no longer has going for him. Elway and the lead-time advantage which Alex Gibbs' zone-blocking scheme gave him at the time.

And as for performing with talent, since when is it that any dumb coach can win Superbowls with talent, they all do, etc

Who said that? I didn't.

In SF when he was the offensive coordinator, they had some of the best offenses of all time. Even in the bad years, Shanny had top 10 offenses. His son has a top 10 offense in Texas.

Kyle is running Kubiak's offense which is more like Zorn's.

And if it really is Alex Gibbs that is the genius behind Shanny, good news there, one of the rumors is that he is coming too.

We already have zone blocking, which is not the advantage it once was since defenses have adjusted. I read recently that defenders were using the same cut blocking techniques (Gibbs taught) to cut down lead blockers.

[KingGibbs]

I won't sweat it if we lose out on Shanny. Besides, Kevin Sheehan said on 980 last week that Bill Cowher praised the Allen hire. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I'm assuming from your post that, in your eyes, if you've seen one WCO, you've seen them all. So, Sherman Smith and Sherman Lewis came into Zorn's program prepared from Day One. And, they could go up to Philadelphia and be equally prepared to coach and call plays in Andy Reid's WCO scheme. If that's your premise, there's not much point in continuing this discussion.

You know you're wrong. I know you're wrong. The offense did not IMPROVE because of ZORN. It IMPROVED because of LEWIS.

WCO has basic elements that are the same in every variation of it. That's why it's called the WCO. Why do you think Lewis was able to come in and call the plays? Because he knows the WCO. Use short passes to move the chains and to set up the run, use the RB extensively in the passing game to that end. It's not rocket science. Zorn didn't give a 6 week seminar on his version of it to Smith. Lewis didn't have all night study sessions the week before he started calling plays.

You're ridiculous with your arguments. I mean, I doubt there are many posters that take you serious.

[HailGreen28]

You know you're wrong. I know you're wrong. The offense did not IMPROVE because of ZORN. It IMROVED because of LEWIS.

WCO has basic elements that are the same in every variation of it. That's why it's called the WCO. Why do you think Lewis was able to come in and call the plays? Because he knows the WCO. Use short passes to move the chains and to set up the run, use the RB extensively in the passing game to that end. It's not rocket science. Zorn didn't give a 6 week siminar on his version of it to Smith. Lewis didn't have all night study sessions the week before he started calling plays.

You're ridiculous with your arguments. I mean, I doubt there are many posters that take you serious.

Oldfan has some good info, and some good insights. It's just that some of his conclusions are.... to put it nicely......:insane:

[Skinsinparadise]

I listed two factors which Shanahan no longer has going for him. Elway and the lead-time advantage which Alex Gibbs' zone-blocking scheme gave him at the time.

Who said that? I didn't.

When you say he won with Elway, isn't that discounting the coaching? Well he had a great QB, so he won Superbowls with him -- to me that implies so what. If you don't mean it that way than sorry if I am misinterpreting your thought but that's what it seems to imply.

And as for Gibbs I know he wasn't with Shanny in SF when he was an offensive coordinator. He did pretty nicely there without him. And if Gibbs really deserves full credit for Shanny's success, as I said, from what I have read he is likely coming here too.

To your point that he's a proven mediocrity, then am gathering its not based on his record because as I established its far from mediocre, its not based on his offensive rankings, again far from mediocre -- but based on the idea that he isn't the guy responsible for the success his teams had, he just had a great supporting cast, and Shanny by himself you don't find anything special or as adept at running a good offense like Jim Zorn?

Kyle is running Kubiak's offense which is more like Zorn's. We already have zone blocking, which is not the advantage it once was since defenses have adjusted. I read recently that defenders were using the same cut blocking techniques Gibbs taught to cut down lead blockers.

Wasn't Kubiak the offensive coordinator under Shanny? I am assuming Kyle is well acquainted with his dad. From what has been out there, Kyle is likely coming here with his dad.

I recall you characterized Shanny as more of a big play WCO guy -- so are you thinking more like Andy Reid? On Wikipedia, Shanny's offense is described as a run heavy variation of the WCO and if so I would gather he must at least to a degree buy into your idea of burning up the clock on drives, then just going for quick scores.

[Oldfan]

You know you're wrong. I know you're wrong. The offense did not IMPROVE because of ZORN. It IMROVED because of LEWIS.

WCO has basic elements that are the same in every variation of it. That's why it's called the WCO. Why do you think Lewis was able to come in and call the plays? Because he knows the WCO. Use short passes to move the chains and to set up the run, use the RB extensively in the passing game to that end. It's not rocket science. Zorn didn't give a 6 week siminar on his version of it to Smith. Lewis didn't have all night study sessions the week before he started calling plays.

You're ridiculous with your arguments. I mean, I doubt there are many posters that take you serious.

Don't presume to tell me that I know I'm wrong -- and I don't give a rat's hiney what you doubt about other posters. You can stamp your foot and insist you are right until the cows come home. What you can't do is argue your position intelligently.

[Oldfan]

Oldfan has some good info, and some good insights. It's just that some of his conclusions are.... to put it nicely......:insane:

Unpopular?

[Skinsinparadise]

Not that I am in love with the idea of Shanny as HC, mainly from the standpoint that I don't want him messing with the defense and for that matter with personnel as GM. But from a pure offensive stand point, he seems to be VERY well regarded around the league. In addition, he never struck me incompetent like this coaching staff does at times with the simpler stuff like burning timeouts and clock management.

[Oldfan]

When you say he won with Elway, isn't that discounting the coaching?

Discounting the coaching factor entirely? Of course not. Did you read my comments about Walsh and Belichick?

And as for Gibbs I know he wasn't with Shanny in SF when he was an offensive coordinator. He did pretty nicely there without him.

How well did he do there? I guess he did okay. He wasn't fired.

And if Gibbs really deserves full credit for Shanny's success..

I didn't say that either.

To your point that he's a proven mediocrity, then am gathering its not based on his record...

It's based on my analysis of his record with emphasis on recent years.

Wasn't Kubiak the offensive coordinator under Shanny?

He was, but he's not running Shanny's scheme in Houston.

I recall you characterized Shanny as more of a big play WCO guy -- so are you thinking more like Andy Reid?

No. Both big play offenses, but very different schemes.

On Wikipedia, Shanny's offense is described as a run heavy variation of the WCO and if so I would gather he must at least to a degree buy into your idea of burning up the clock on drives, then just going for quick scores.

The Denver running game was geared to producing big plays also. That's why so many Redskins fans got the idea that Portis was a homerun threat. He was in Denver, but never here.

[crownking]

"he blows ass."

Is it really necessary to use such a disgusting idiom. If one cannot express himself in respectable terms, then he should be banned.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Don't presume to tell me that I know I'm wrong -- and I don't give a rat's hiney what you doubt about other posters. You can stamp your foot and insist you are right until the cows come home. What you can't do is argue your position intelligently.

Yeah, I'm not stamping my foot, I'm making points. Points which you haven't countered, I might add. I guess I can't argue with someone that would rather have an assistant who has zero experience at HC over a guy who has numerous winning records and two Super Bowl wins as HC.

Go on and keep posting your nonsense and we'll continue to point and laugh at it.

[HailGreen28]

Unpopular?

That too. Hope you keep posting, even when I completely disagree with you.

[Oldfan]

...I guess I can't argue with someone that would rather have an assistant who has zero experience at HC over a guy who has numerous winning records and two Super Bowl wins as HC...

We haven't had a state-of the-art NFL passing game here since Norv left. Even Joe Gibbs, who came in with a record far superior to Shanahan's, couldn't get one going. Now, despite a grade C quarterback, backups at the RB position, and backups on the O-line, the passing game and the offense in general is just beginning to show signs of life -- and dimwits on this board think it's time for a change.

[HigSkin]

Besides, Kevin Sheehan said on 980 last week that Bill Cowher praised the Allen hire. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Ya know, why do I keep thinking fans will end up dooped in this and we'll get Cowher if Shanny jerks the Skins around? It's just that the last 2 hires have kind of come out of nowhere. I know, people keep quoting Cowher saying negative things, blah, blah, but stranger stuff has happened before.

[ArmchairRedskin]

We haven't had a state-of the-art NFL passing game here since Norv left. Even Joe Gibbs, who came in with a record far superior to Shanahan's, couldn't get one going. Now, despite a grade C quarterback, backups at the RB position, and backups on the O-line, the passing game and the offense in general is just beginning to show signs of life -- and dimwits on this board think it's time for a change.

It's not just dimwits on this board. It's a decision made by the front office. People recognize that Zorn just wasn't getting the best out of his players.

Look what Merril Hoge said about our offense after he watched the coach's tape after the Tampa game.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2009/10/merril_hoge_breaks_down_the_sk.html

"You have a philosophy, a West Coast philosophy, and nobody fits that mold," said Hoge, who comprehensively reviewed the Tampa game on tape. "I don't think they try to take advantage of their strengths. It's like they've got a philosophy and they want to run it regardless. Shoot, I'd run the ball, run a lot of run action, stack receivers, bunch 'em coming off the line. I'd use a different philosophy to take advantage of their strengths. The West Coast is not their strength. That doesn't mean you can't do it some of the time, it just shouldn't be your staple....That, to me, is the biggest way to fail as a coach. Just watch the Tampa game. They did nothing to help their guys. The quarterback has nowhere to throw the ball, so then he gets sacked and looks like an idiot."

Specifically, Hoge said the Bucs--once famous for the Tampa-2 zone--were running man concept stuff in their secondary for the majority of the game. He said the Redskins were countering with pass routes that would be most effective against zone schemes. He cited one 3rd-and-10 play in which the Skins ran three curl independent curl routes.

"Man, you're never gonna win a curl route against man, ever," Hoge said. "Give 'em an option route. Stack your receivers. Run them across the field. You just can't run zone concept stuff and think you're gonna win [those battles]. You're not."

I think Shanahan would be able to make adjustments. Hell, Lewis has already been making those adjustments. Cerrato was right to bring him in. Zorn was wasting our talent.

Merril's final thought on the subject turned out to be quite prophetic

"The great demise for any coach is when he's unwilling to adapt his philosophy to the strengths of his personnel," Hoge said. "I don't care what level you're at, eventually you have to evaluate the strength of your personnel and adjust your philosophy to those strengths."

[The Waterboy]

I have my fingers crossed. I hope Dallas beats us to him. I don't want him here.

Amen. I agree.

[Skinsinparadise]

How well did he do there? I guess he did okay. He wasn't fired.

Pretty good. How about a Superbowl, and the 1994 49ers were considered one of the best offenses of all time.

It's based on my analysis of his record with emphasis on recent years.

If I recall correctly, he still had top 10 offenses, in his last year when he went 8-8, he lost his last 3 games, Wikipedia attributes their decline at the end to injuries.

I got Shanny's book but of course that stuff is always self-promotional -- otherwise I know little about Shanny but the way he is portrayed good and bad seems to be:

Offensive play caller -- good to excellent

Competence -- good to excellent

GM -- mediocre to bad

Defenses -- stunk under him.

So for me I am not worried about him calling an offense, I am worried about the rest of the stuff.

[Seabee1973]

You know you're wrong. I know you're wrong. The offense did not IMPROVE because of ZORN. It IMPROVED because of LEWIS.

WCO has basic elements that are the same in every variation of it. That's why it's called the WCO. Why do you think Lewis was able to come in and call the plays? Because he knows the WCO. Use short passes to move the chains and to set up the run, use the RB extensively in the passing game to that end. It's not rocket science. Zorn didn't give a 6 week seminar on his version of it to Smith. Lewis didn't have all night study sessions the week before he started calling plays.

You're ridiculous with your arguments. I mean, I doubt there are many posters that take you serious.

You just cant go out there and call plays. you have to put a game plane wich is what Zorn, Sherm smith, sherm lewis are doing you have to practice which Lewis isnt probably adviseing on that and you have to execute those plays in a game.

Now you can do everything right except if the players dont execute the best play in the world looks like a failure.

[ArmchairRedskin]

You just cant go out there and call plays. you have to put a game plane wich is what Zorn, Sherm smith, sherm lewis are doing you have to practice which Lewis isnt probably adviseing on that and you have to execute those plays in a game.

Now you can do everything right except if the players dont execute the best play in the world looks like a failure.

Really? Thanx for pointing out the obvious, Captain. Sure glad you cleared that up.

[Oldfan]

It's not just dimwits on this board. It's a decision made by the front office.

I stand corrected, it's not just the dimwits on the board; it's the dimwits in the front office as well.

Look what Merril Hoge said about our offense after he watched the coach's tape after the Tampa game.

Does it bother you in the least that Hoge's analysis was proven flat-out wrong since the offense made it's surge after the Tampa game?

[ArmchairRedskin]

I stand corrected, it's not just the dimwits on the board; it's the dimwits in the front office as well.

Does it bother you in the least that Hoge's analysis was proven flat-out wrong since the offense made it's surge after the Tampa game?

Lewis. Sherm Lewis. He calls the plays. Merril wasn't proven wrong. He nailed Zorn's playcalling.

[Oldfan]

...So for me I am not worried about him calling an offense, I am worried about the rest of the stuff.

After all that, we agree. I think Shanny would fit well as an OC in Chicago. I think he has ties to that area, and he certainly knows Cutler. I don't really want him screwing around with the progress of our team.

[Oldfan]

Lewis. Sherm Lewis. He calls the plays. Merril wasn't proven wrong. He nailed Zorn's playcalling.

You do realize that Sherman Lewis isn't calling plays stored in his memory don't you?

Do you realize that the plays called are charted according to a game plan? Do you realize that the game plan is determined by Zorn's scheme? Do you doubt Chris Meidt's assertion that Lewis takes a back seat in the game planning during the week and that it's still being done by the same people who did it before Lewis came on board -- Meidt, Sherm Smih with Jim Zorn's input and approval?

[MartinC]

We haven't had a state-of the-art NFL passing game here since Norv left. Even Joe Gibbs, who came in with a record far superior to Shanahan's, couldn't get one going. Now, despite a grade C quarterback, backups at the RB position, and backups on the O-line, the passing game and the offense in general is just beginning to show signs of life -- and dimwits on this board think it's time for a change.

Your are, again, presuming that Zorn is behind the improvement. Thats a conclusion that while its possible is also potentially false. We have rehashed this argument in thread after thread and neither of us have conclusive evidence to prove exactly what or whom is due what credit for the improvement.

There is at least a chace that Zorn is not the main force behind the improvement. If its true that Zorn is NOT chiefly responsible for the improvement then making a change at Head Coach for someone with an offensive background and a much superior record and experience running a scheme with the same roots as our current scheme is not dim witted.

Bottom line though is it does not really matter what folks on here, quick witted or dim witted think. It what people who are much closer and who have access to first hand information and a far greater level of understanding of the factors in play here think that matters.

All evidence is that they believe its is time for a change.

[PCS]

I was going to say,that I could be wrong,but Sherm's been using a playbook largely designed by Zorn. Guess that might count for something. Though one can't discount Sherm's playcalling in the improvement. Sort of a results thing.