Definately, D is the problem

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

The problems with letting teams get big drives are 1) Eats up clock, gets D tired from being on the field too long, The O never gets a chance to get in a rhythm.

And the most important is it gives the other team Momentem over us.

who cares about the D being tired if the other team isnt scoring? theyre gonna be tired as long as our offense keeps them out on the field.

games are won in the "who had more and who had less points" department, not "which team gave up bigger yards and had the ball longer". we cant score, and its killing our defense. its why our defense is so winded in the 4th quarter, because our offense cant go anywhere.

the lions game, we went past the lions 45 yard line twice until the final 5 minutes. thats 125% unacceptable.

[20April1980]

the offense moved the ball a total of 41 yards in the 2nd half until the giants went up by 10. the offense had 3 drives in the 3rd quarter, one starting at the giants 11 yard line, and we gained 3 points out of it.

in the 4th quarter, our one possession was a 3 and out before the giants went up.

this offense is killing us, not the defense. the giants are a better team anyways, to expect us to continually get stops while the offense sputters around is completely unreasonable.

We ended the 3rd by cutting the lead to 10-17

DRIVE TOTALS: WAS 10 NYG 17, 4 plays, 2 yards, 1:57 drive, 14:10 elapsed

Yes the offense had been playing poorly(notice not once have I said the offense has been playing good,even said they suck) and the defense finally played well.

But the defense went bye bye in the 4th.

18 plays and 11 mins of the 4th qtr. 1 drive over 60 yards.

We are failing as a team. Neither side can say they are doing good.

who cares about the D being tired if the other team isnt scoring? theyre gonna be tired as long as our offense keeps them out on the field.

games are won in the "who had more and who had less points" department, not "which team gave up bigger yards and had the ball longer". we cant score, and its killing our defense. its why our defense is so winded in the 4th quarter, because our offense cant go anywhere.

the lions game, we went past the lions 45 yard line twice until the final 5 minutes. thats 125% unacceptable.

In both losses the defense gave up late drives for points and that ate up the clock. We were in both games at the time. Both times we needed just 1 stop.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

You don't get my point. I can tell now. I am sorry

BLC came out and said he can not get past his hatred for the offense and even said that might make him bias. Thus making his intentions in this thread suspect.

Next he asks me a direct question and I answered it and he ignored it. Thus showing his intentions were not to discuss the facts but to bash the offense.

Notice he still has not responded to that post. I posted it twice now. That is my only point.

stop with the trolling crap. i simply said its tough for me to fault the defense that much when the O is this terrible. that doesnt mean im doing drive bys and making snide comments, which is pretty much what trolling is.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

We ended the 3rd by cutting the lead to 10-17

DRIVE TOTALS: WAS 10 NYG 17, 4 plays, 2 yards, 1:57 drive, 14:10 elapsed

Yes the offense had been playing poorly(notice not once have I said the offense has been playing good,even said they suck) and the defense finally played well.

But the defense went bye bye in the 4th.

18 plays and 11 mins of the 4th qtr. 1 drive over 60 yards.

We are failing as a team. Neither side can say they are doing good.

how do you expect the defense to not go bye bye against the best team in the NFC when the offense has accumulated 41 yards in almost an entire half of football?

[20April1980]

stop with the trolling crap. i simply said its tough for me to fault the defense that much when the O is this terrible. that doesnt mean im doing drive bys and making snide comments, which is pretty much what trolling is.

What is so tough.

neither part of our team has played any good.

Why are you fighting the facts of who we are and what our team is doing?

You are the most vocal in defense of the defense? Why?

[abdcskins]

We are failing as a team. Neither side can say they are doing good.

Exactly. We suck on both sides of the ball.

Here's what I see with the defense:

1) No pass rush. Big effin surprise huh? I have no clue how to change this. I would like to see more Chris Wilson, Jeremy Jarmon, and Brian Orakpo where he belongs!

2) Pass coverage sucks. Everytime Stafford dropped back to pass I expected a completion. And whaddya know, he did. Our corners come off their men and just expect others to pick them up. Matter of fact, I don't see anyone stepping up and taking charge to cover that guy. It's just a bunch of zone crap, which I equate to "you get him." Stick to your man.

Very disappointed with the defense so far. Points is not the whole story. Yards and time of possesion are. So far teams have been able to drive on us rather easily.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

What is so tough.

neither part of our team has played any good.

Why are you fighting the facts of who we are and what our team is doing?

You are the most vocal in defense of the defense? Why?

because IMO the lions game was the first game where they looked ugly. and they have a proven track record so i refuse to just give up on them. i think we have way too much talent on that side of the ball to just roll over and die every week.

and i also think the offense is making their job 10x harder. another poster and myself have already said, lets see how this defense is perceived when the offense can muster 3 TDs in a game (insane thought, i know).

[gca61087]

What factors? How is 3rd down defense less important? So MAKING STOPS on 3rd down don't matter? :hysterical: They are 20 or worse in a number of stats. And DEAD LAST at 51% for 3rd down defense!!!!

They suck. They aint even avg. Avg would not be 32 of 32 teams on 3rd down defense. 28th in TOP.

They were no worse than 8th in any stat last year with a garbage offense.

We are now near the bottom. We got destroyed in the first half by the LIONS. 9/12 on 3rd down and 3 drives of over 70 yards by a rookie QB. 1 drive went 99 yards!!!!

The 0-19 Lions :hysterical:

Yes we suck it up on both sides of the ball right now.

first of all, tell me where i said 3rd down defense doesn't matter.

second, i'll offer you two scenarios:

defense gives up 14/14 third downs, allows 10 points.

defense gives up 5/ 14 third downs, allows 30 points.

tell me which one is more important.

also, that TOP stat you keep showing has alot to do with offense too. against the rams, the skins dominated TOP and wouldnt you know it, the defense allowed seven points (which sadly was "barely good enough" to get them a win). that is a shared statistic. the redskins had as many chances as the lions did to control the ball and failed.

[Burgold]

how do you expect the defense to not go bye bye against the best team in the NFC when the offense has accumulated 41 yards in almost an entire half of football?

Suddenly, the Detroit Lions are the best team in the NFC? Cause our D did the same exact disappearing act.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

who cares about the D being tired if the other team isnt scoring? theyre gonna be tired as long as our offense keeps them out on the field.

games are won in the "who had more and who had less points" department, not "which team gave up bigger yards and had the ball longer". we cant score, and its killing our defense. its why our defense is so winded in the 4th quarter, because our offense cant go anywhere.

the lions game, we went past the lions 45 yard line twice until the final 5 minutes. thats 125% unacceptable.

I care when the D is tired because when their tired they get run on in the 4th quarter when we need stops. Everyteam wants to get the other D tired. If you dont know that then I have nothing else to say to you.

Our O isnt clicking in the redzone so they need as many drives as possible. And not getting off the field on 3rd down doest help.

I get what ur saying about the O but u can aknowledge the problems the D have too. That wont make you a Campbell supporter.

[20April1980]

because IMO the lions game was the first game where they looked ugly. and they have a proven track record so i refuse to just give up on them. i think we have way too much talent on that side of the ball to just roll over and die every week.

and i also think the offense is making their job 10x harder. another poster and myself have already said, lets see how this defense is perceived when the offense can muster 3 TDs in a game (insane thought, i know).

And I have shown you the stats that showed in reality they weren't that good. And failed when we needed them the most.

You can be critical of both the offense and the defense. And you should be as blown away we are DEAD LAST in any category offensive or defensive.

Let alone find out in every game we have given up 46% or higher 3rd down defense.

We are not a very good team offensive or defensive man. :doh: We can't win with either the offense or defense at this point imho.

first of all, tell me where i said doesn't matter.

second, i'll offer you two scenarios:

defense gives up 14/14 third downs, allows 10 points.

defense gives up 5/ 14 third downs, allows 30 points.

tell me which one is more important.

I would be concerned in both scenarios. What is the use of making scenarios.

We suck on offense and now defense. Welcome to reality :hysterical:

[jkypoo]

What is so tough.

neither part of our team has played any good.

Why are you fighting the facts of who we are and what our team is doing?

You are the most vocal in defense of the defense? Why?

This is where the conversation comes into context and maybe you will understand what I have been trying to tell you.

In some of my original posts in this thread, I said that both the defense and offense have looked bad. But we have had a perennial top tier defense and a constantly under performing offense. This has been going on for years and for years we have had mediocre teams. Therefore, if there is a trend of good defense + poor offense = mediocre team, then the offense deserves the bulk of the scrutiny, even if this years defense isn't necessarily above remark. The point being that this team evidently isn't going to turn any corners until the offense steps up, starts playing better, and starts putting points on the board.

[jkypoo]

Suddenly, the Detroit Lions are the best team in the NFC? Cause our D did the same exact disappearing act.

:secret: ...he was referring to the Giants game...me thinks.

[20April1980]

This is where the conversation comes into context and maybe you will understand what I have been trying to tell you.

In some of my original posts in this thread, I said that both the defense and offense have looked bad. But we have had a perennial top tier defense and a constantly under performing offense. This has been going on for years and for years we have had mediocre teams. Therefore, if there is a trend of good defense + poor offense = mediocre team, then the offense deserves the bulk of the scrutiny, even if this years defense isn't necessarily above remark. The point being that this team evidently isn't going to turn any corners until the offense steps up, starts playing better, and starts putting points on the board.

:doh:

I get all that. We all agree on that. It was his statement that he is biased. Meaning no matter the facts he is here just to bash the offense cause he is so angry at it.

Not that hard to understand. Big picture deal. Macro not micro.

i respect every posters opinion. But finding out another poster could care less about the facts cause of emotion is upsetting. That person is here for 1 reason only. To make sure we all know this offense stinks. I know that now .

[gca61087]

This is where the conversation comes into context and maybe you will understand what I have been trying to tell you.

In some of my original posts in this thread, I said that both the defense and offense have looked bad. But we have had a perennial top tier defense and a constantly under performing offense. This has been going on for years and for years we have had mediocre teams. Therefore, if there is a trend of good defense + poor offense = mediocre team, then the offense deserves the bulk of the scrutiny, even if this years defense isn't necessarily above remark. The point being that this team evidently isn't going to turn any corners until the offense steps up, starts playing better, and starts putting points on the board.

this is the truth.

[jkypoo]

:doh:

I get all that. We all agree on that. It was his statement that he is biased. Meaning no matter the facts he is here just to bash the offense cause he is so angry at it.

Not that hard to understand. Big picture deal. Macro not micro.

I have and will continue to be critical of the defense staying on the field too long, giving up too many third down conversions, and not forcing turnovers, but they are only giving up 16 ppg. If the offense cannot step up and put up 17 ppg, then the bulk of the blame comes down to the offense. Regardless of how the games played out, we should be able to expect 17 out of our team. Until that happens, the bulk of the blame is going to fall on the offense.

And so far, this season has been a microcosm of years of ineptitude by our offense, during which time our team has been mediocre. Casting equal blame to a D that surrenders only 16 ppg is an act of not holding our offense to a high enough standard, which has been another trend over the years.

So, yes, the D could get off the field sooner or force more turnovers, but, ultimately, we continue to look mediocre because our offense cannot fulfill their end of the bargain.

[gca61087]

I would be concerned in both scenarios. What is the use of making scenarios.

We suck on offense and now defense. Welcome to reality :hysterical:

the point of making scenarios is to argue my point. you know, using examples to argue a point?

if you would really be equally (which i am infering) concerned with a defense allowing 10 points per game as opposed to a defense allowing 30 per game, i can't take any more of your arguments seriously.

this is reality: find a team with an offense that scores 13 points per game and is successful in the nfl. you will be hard pressed to find one.

now, look at teams with a defense that allows 16 points per game, and find successful ones. guarantee the number will be exponetially greater than above.

its not the only stat that matters, but it is the most important.

[20April1980]

I have and will continue to be critical of the defense staying on the field too long, giving up too many third down conversions, and not forcing turnovers, but they are only giving up 16 ppg. If the offense cannot step up and put up 17 ppg, then the bulk of the blame comes down to the offense. Regardless of how the games played out, we should be able to expect 17 out of our team. Until that happens, the bulk of the blame is going to fall on the offense.

And so far, this season has been a microcosm of years of ineptitude by our offense, during which time our team has been mediocre. Casting equal blame to a D that surrenders only 16 ppg is an act of not holding our offense to a high enough standard, which has been another trend over the years.

So, yes, the D could get off the field sooner or force more turnovers, but, ultimately, we continue to look mediocre because our offense cannot fulfill their end of the bargain.

Once again I agree with you.

Our offense sucked last year as well. Our defense still finished no worse than 8th in any statistical category.

36% 3rd down defense in 2008

51% 3rd down defense in 2009

No reason why they should be doing so poorly now. And saying they played poorly and contributed to our losses does not release the offense from its responsibilities.

Both have contributed equally in 2009 to our 1-2 start. They both have played well and bad in all games.

[20April1980]

the point of making scenarios is to argue my point. you know, using examples to argue a point?

if you would really be equally (which i am infering) concerned with a defense allowing 10 points per game as opposed to a defense allowing 30 per game, i can't take any more of your arguments seriously.

this is reality: find a team with an offense that scores 13 points per game is successful in the nfl. you will be hard pressed to find one.

now, look at teams with a defense that allows 16 points per game, and find successful ones. guarantee the number will be exponetially greater than above.

its not the only stat that matters, but it is the most important.

Your scenario is bs for 2 reasons. you gave no info on how they other team scores or anything, Just 2 pieces of a stat line.

Any good defense would want to limit scoring, 3rd down conversions and force turnovers. I would be concerned if a team gave up 30 points no matter 3rd down conversions. And equally concerned even if we won if we gave up 100% 3rd down conversions.

We can play good and win and still make mistakes. That is what you don't get. those mistakes will come back to bite you in the ass eventually.

The only stat that matters is W and L. And when we lose no facet of our team is immune to scrutiny.

in the Giants loss we were down 1 score and the defense could not make a stop. 10-17 start of the 4th. Our offense also 3 and outed but does not free the defense up from its failure to stop the Giants. 18 plays 11 mins and 6 points. Goes on both the offense and the defense

In the lions game the defense allowed 3 scoring drives over 70 yards in a row. Offense had 1 good drive than fizzled. Offense woke up got the big play and the defense could not hold the Lions. They let them go 85 yards!!!! for a TD to win the game

We lost both games on offense and defense.

We can't score and we can't get teams off the field. We suck lol

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

because IMO the lions game was the first game where they looked ugly. and they have a proven track record so i refuse to just give up on them. i think we have way too much talent on that side of the ball to just roll over and die every week.

and i also think the offense is making their job 10x harder. another poster and myself have already said, lets see how this defense is perceived when the offense can muster 3 TDs in a game (insane thought, i know).

Defenses will ware out physically, and mentally, right now I think the mental aspect of knowing JC is not going to produce points, or sustain drives is a huge problem, it kills the incentive and drive needed for success. The physical break down is not far behind, and when I say physical break down I mean they will ware down from being on the field way to much, especially with the scheme we play which does give up yds but not points, not that I agree with that philosophy but we don't give up points, and if our defense could play with a 2 score lead they would look a whole lot more productive.

[jkypoo]

Once again I agree with you.

Our offense sucked last year as well. Our defense still finished no worse than 8th in any statistical category.

36% 3rd down defense in 2008

51% 3rd down defense in 2009

No reason why they should be doing so poorly now. And saying they played poorly and contributed to our losses does not release the offense from its responsibilities.

Both have contributed equally in 2009 to our 1-2 start. They both have played well and bad in all games.

I agree with what you are saying, too.

But I'm not necessarily talking about the technical reasons why we are 1 - 2, because I will do nothing but agree with you about that.

My focus has been more towards explaining why the offense receives and deserves more scrutiny. They have been the constant under performing factor during our years of mediocrity, so it is only natural that their continued ineptness will garner more scrutiny. It is less of an excuse and more of an explanation.

Even if I agree that the D can and should do more and do it better, I still blame the offense more for our current mediocrity. As said before by another poster, "Maybe that is bias," but it is the current state and nature of things.

[20April1980]

Defenses will ware out physically' date=' and mentally, right now I [b']think the mental aspect of knowing JC is not going to produce points, or sustain drives is a huge problem, [/b]it kills the incentive and drive needed for success. The physical break down is not far behind, and when I say physical break down I mean they will ware down from being on the field way to much, especially with the scheme we play which does give up yds but not points, not that I agree with that philosophy but we don't give up points, and if our defense could play with a 2 score lead they would look a whole lot more productive.

:hysterical:

Really?

Not the play calling?

Not the 24th ranked rush offense?

Not cp not having 100 yards or a td?

Not even injuries to key guys like Randy Thomas?

So this defense went from elite top 5 to bums overnight cause they no longer believe in JC? Who has been their QB for 3 season now?

:hysterical:

Now I have read it all. The defense sucks cause of JC? wow

We drive 75 yards and CP can't score from the 1 so since the defense is upset they let the Lions and a rookie QB go 99 yrds for a td? Damn JC.

They were fine with 16 pts a game but 13 broke the defenses back lol. No body tell him JC is avg more yards a game this year than last. The biggest difference in our offense is no rushing game. But that doesn't matter.

We couldn't score last year we had 5th ranked defense, spend millions and draft picks to upgrade they do worse cause we still can't score. What a joke

[Slateman]

Isn't our D rated one of the last in third downs?

Bingo. Fix this, we have a very good defense.

[jkypoo]

Bingo. Fix this, we have a very good defense.

We do have a very good defense, where it counts.

The only two things that should matter are points allowed by our defense and points scored by our offense. Right now, our D is only giving up 16 per game. Sure, they could do some things better, but if the offense could score at least 17 a game (on average) then this whole discussion would be moot. The defense keeping the points low is keeping the game in our favor, our offense has yet to take advantage (except for the Rams game).

[gca61087]

The only stat that matters is W and L. And when we lose no facet of our team is immune to scrutiny.

the last time i checked, the team that did better or worse on 3rd downs was not awarded a win or a loss.

thats because the team that scores more POINTS than the other wins.

you CAN NOT WIN on a consistent basis in the nfl is you score 13 POINTS per game. this is what our offense is doing, and why our offense deserves more scrutiny than the defense.

yes, the defense has problems. and i admit they are playing to a lower level than I (and most) expected them to. but really, should they be expected to hold teams to ten points per game?

by your argument, an improvemt in third down defense would ultimately lead to a better scoring defense, right? since teams would have more drives stalled and....ultimately....SCORE LESS!!!

holding teams to 13, 10, 9 points etc. on a consistent basis is expecting the defense to perform at a LEGENDARY level. i wish they could, but our defense is not the 2000 ravens or steel curtain. and even then, WE WOULD STILL BE STRUGGLING TO WIN GAMES BECAUSE WE CANT SCORE!!!!

on the contrary asking the offense to score 20 points per game is asking them to be AVERAGE. not good, great or legendary. AVERAGE!!!!!!!!