Getting ready for Detroit.

[SkinsFTW]

I said during the Rams game that it was too bad Snyder fired Norv during the season.

The reason is that he won't do it twice, or is very unlikely to after the beating he took for it.

Otherwise I'd have expected Zorn gone after that game.

[hail2skins]

Great thread.

Yes, the offense is frustrating, and even watching today's Skins reminds me of watching us play at Indy in the middle of the 2006 season with Brunell. The contrast between our offense, which just kind of plodded up the field in drives that seemed to take forever, versus the explosive offense of Peyton and Co. was just striking. Is there not a happy medium?

Regarding Zorn, I honestly think he stays through the end of the year and probably beyond through Year 3, barring a total collapse that leaves us at 6-10 or worse. Reason is that this is Snyder's first "non big-name" hire as HC, and delivering the axe so early would be an open admission that Dan really screwed up on this hire.....an admission I don't think his ego will let him make.

The positive thing we have going for us is the early soft schedule, which should allow us to amass some wins while Zorn (hopefully) figures out our proper identity.

[88Comrade2000]

Great thread.

Yes, the offense is frustrating, and even watching today's Skins reminds me of watching us play at Indy in the middle of the 2006 season with Brunell. The contrast between our offense, which just kind of plodded up the field in drives that seemed to take forever, versus the explosive offense of Peyton and Co. was just striking. Is there not a happy medium?

Regarding Zorn, I honestly think he stays through the end of the year and probably beyond through Year 3, barring a total collapse that leaves us at 6-10 or worse. Reason is that this is Snyder's first "non big-name" hire as HC, and delivering the axe so early would be an open admission that Dan really screwed up on this hire.....an admission I don't think his ego will let him make.

Superbowl winning coaches are available, I think Dan's ego will survive.

[Birdlives]

Meh.

As far as I'm concerned Art, you could've just as easily come in here and said, "hey guys, don't be surprised if, after the Lions game, Snyder fires Zorn. Just a heads up."

This thread is damage control, nothing more.

[BayouBrave86]

dont look back in anger dude.

:rotflmao:PERFECT. He gave you a fast ball and you hit it out of the park.

[Art]

Meh.

As far as I'm concerned Art, you could've just as easily come in here and said, "hey guys, don't be surprised if, after the Lions game, Snyder fires Zorn. Just a heads up."

This thread is damage control, nothing more.

I couldn't say that as I'd have no information suggesting that's remotely true. I suspect the team won't fire him now and if he figures it out and turns it around, they won't fire him later either.

[SkinsFTW]

This thread is damage control, nothing more.

Yeah, because we all know that Art is DS or Vinny. :chair:

[Art]

Art,

Other than this article being extremely melodramatic, i want to give you a piece of advice in the form of a quote from your own article:

"Its Week 2 of Season 2." Have a little patience.

Sure, you could see his play calling as "desperate" or you could see it as backbone. Hell, i remember when we wouldn't go for it if our season depended on it under Gibbs 2.0. I understand why you are upset. You're a Redskins fan. You expect excellence. And I'm right there with ya, but if you take a step back, realize three things.

1) Its only Week 2....theres PLENTY of season left

2) We are 1-1. Same as the Patriots, Same as the Cowboys, Same as Eagles etc

3) Its only the 2nd season of a NEW offense and a QB in that offense. Sometimes it takes a few years to run it perfect.

Much love.

These are all valid points. But, it's got nothing to do with patience. I have no doubt this team will get most of us very excited and sit 5-1 or no worse than 4-2. It could even look mildly good at points doing that. One game should actually be a blowout or at least comfortable win.

But, it doesn't matter. The Redskins have enough talent and good coaching to win some games and be competitive with good teams. We lack coherent playcalling that understands how to influence both the game we're in and games to come.

The OLD Redskins spoke of how Gibbs could call plays in a game setting something up for weeks later against the Giants. Zorn doesn't seem to understand building, exploiting, forcing a team to adjust to what you're doing, then HITTING THEM with the kill shot. Zorn almost appears so afraid of getting caught by other team's adjustments like last year, that he adjusts himself both from drive to drive and within drive. The team plays with no personality because we don't simply do something that defines us.

You do not watch what we do and see ANYTHING building. We actually ran a slant and go before we ever ran a slant last game. I'm surprised Sellers got so open on the wheel route, because we'd not done anything in the flat to hurt them that much so they shouldn't have jumped that as they did.

When you see good playcalling you see a team building against a defense. You see the defense forced to adjust. Then you see the defense taken off balance by what they are doing. In this, it requires some failed plays sometimes. But, the halfback option pass was THE FIRST sweep all game. They'd not gotten hurt by it. So they had no reason to commit to stop it. Thus, no one is every going to be open.

It's this area he just seems so helpless with and I'm not sure that helplessness is correctable. I will LOVE it if it is. I just suspect we know what we have now. And it's never going to succeed.

[DieselPwr44]

I've never seen Art and Oldfan in the same thread before.

Hell has frozen over.

[CurseReversed]

I am not saying anything about anything until after the first loss. Right now we are on a winning streak.

[SkinsFTW]

You do not watch what we do and see ANYTHING building. We actually ran a slant and go before we ever ran a slant last game. I'm surprised Sellers got so open on the wheel route, because we'd not done anything in the flat to hurt them that much so they shouldn't have jumped that as they did.

LOL.

Funny as well is that they ran from the 9, the 8, and then had Portis pass into the endzone going to the right, with the OL pass blocking, on a supposed run. Is that fooling anybody on 3rd down and goal at the 7-8 yard line? Were they even trying to fool the Rams or was Portis the better option for a throw into the end zone? It's mind boggling. :doh:

[SkinsFTW]

But, it doesn't matter. The Redskins have enough talent and good coaching to win some games and be competitive with good teams. We lack coherent playcalling that understands how to influence both the game we're in and games to come.

Exactly, it really doesn't matter at all.

When your receivers drop passes, in the WCO, and you decide to pound it in from the 9, and have the RB pass, nothing matters.

I never saw a Walsh drive even remotely as random as every Zorn drive. Walsh called the play that would work in the situation. Zorn calls the play he sees working in his mind before he relays it to JC, despite the situation.

[Birdlives]

I couldn't say that as I'd have no information suggesting that's remotely true. I suspect the team won't fire him now and if he figures it out and turns it around, they won't fire him later either.

And how long should Zorn get to figure it out? According to you its 18 games. Fire him now. Does that actually seem logical to you? Snyder hired a guy he knew had never called a game, never coached a team, and never had any job higher than QB coach. So 18 games is enough to determine he isn't going to get it?

[illone]

I dont think Zorn gets fired mid-season.

I agree that he should be fired, and I have a feeling he will at the end of this boring/horrific year.

This year won't end soon enough. The pain is easier to deal with by just admitting the team stinks and has no identity. Easier pill to swallow. Plus, I don't actually have to watch the games on Sunday. Work schedule.

Who are you hoping the Skins hire next year, Art? I'm pulling for Shanahan.

[TheLongshot]

These are all valid points. But, it's got nothing to do with patience. I have no doubt this team will get most of us very excited and sit 5-1 or no worse than 4-2. It could even look mildly good at points doing that. One game should actually be a blowout or at least comfortable win.

But, it doesn't matter. The Redskins have enough talent and good coaching to win some games and be competitive with good teams. We lack coherent playcalling that understands how to influence both the game we're in and games to come.

The OLD Redskins spoke of how Gibbs could call plays in a game setting something up for weeks later against the Giants. Zorn doesn't seem to understand building, exploiting, forcing a team to adjust to what you're doing, then HITTING THEM with the kill shot. Zorn almost appears so afraid of getting caught by other team's adjustments like last year, that he adjusts himself both from drive to drive and within drive. The team plays with no personality because we don't simply do something that defines us.

You do not watch what we do and see ANYTHING building. We actually ran a slant and go before we ever ran a slant last game. I'm surprised Sellers got so open on the wheel route, because we'd not done anything in the flat to hurt them that much so they shouldn't have jumped that as they did.

When you see good playcalling you see a team building against a defense. You see the defense forced to adjust. Then you see the defense taken off balance by what they are doing. In this, it requires some failed plays sometimes. But, the halfback option pass was THE FIRST sweep all game. They'd not gotten hurt by it. So they had no reason to commit to stop it. Thus, no one is every going to be open.

It's this area he just seems so helpless with and I'm not sure that helplessness is correctable. I will LOVE it if it is. I just suspect we know what we have now. And it's never going to succeed.

I understand what you are saying, and it is true that Zorn's playcalling isn't that sophisticated. At the same time, I think it is overrated to a certain extent. At the end of the day, it is about your guys beating the other teams guys. In that fashion, Zorn and Blache are very similar.

I think Zorn is still trying to get the parts he has working as a coherent whole. While his basis is in the WCO, he doesn't have pieces which are perfect fits and is making adjustments on the fly. That's probably why you don't see a "personality" (whatever that really means.)

While the offense may not be super sophisticated right now, I'd prefer that over trying to be way too cute and not being able to pull it off. I think you want to be off and running when we are still learning to walk in some cases. Your prediction of a 20 point victory in New York is indicative of that. I wouldn't have picked a margin of victory that large, particularly with our issues in New York early in the season.

Let's see where we are by the end of the season before we write off Zorn, if nothing else because we have little other choice.

[Art]

And how long should Zorn get to figure it out? According to you its 18 games. Fire him now. Does that actually seem logical to you? Snyder hired a guy he knew had never called a game, never coached a team, and never had any job higher than QB coach. So 18 games is enough to determine he isn't going to get it?

18 games is enough to see progress.

You know when you see a good play caller. You know when you see a guy just throwing other teams off with how he calls a game. Zorn has not progressed in this area. It's one reason so little is easy for us. The point isn't how long he should get to figure it out.

It's that in Week 2 of Season 2 if he's going to treat things with such desperation, it's not something you can survive. Again, one score is a fake field goal. Another is against prevent. A third attempt was a halfback pass. On the second play of a game he runs a reverse pass play. On the first play of the game he calls a long pass and it's a TD, but isn't executed. He never comes back to it when?

It's fourth and 1, up by two against a team with no timeouts. He goes for it. SAY you can forgive the first go for it. You can't the second. It's all so scattershot and breathless and hopeless. Nothing is all that different from week one last year save he DOES have more intermediate routes in and Campbell does seem to know the offense better. Still, it's not building. It's just what it's been, only MORE desperate. You heard it on the NFL film of him at the game. That halfback pass leads to him wondering aloud what it takes to get a TD. He's baffled and uncertain. When faced with adversity, as he said on that clip, we're going to run it from the 9 because we can't catch.

You want to instill confidence, call the same play on the next down and give Sellers another chance. You don't stop thinking passing is allowed. It's just so strange.

[Art]

I dont think Zorn gets fired mid-season.

I agree that he should be fired, and I have a feeling he will at the end of this boring/horrific year.

This year won't end soon enough. The pain is easier to deal with by just admitting the team stinks and has no identity. Easier pill to swallow. Plus, I don't actually have to watch the games on Sunday. Work schedule.

Who are you hoping the Skins hire next year, Art? I'm pulling for Shanahan.

I'm hoping Zorn succeeds. I'm expecting our next coach to be Gruden or Cowher.

I'd probably stick with the idea of a young coach you can make your next Jeff Fisher. Maybe Jason Garrett.

[Art]

I understand what you are saying, and it is true that Zorn's playcalling isn't that sophisticated. At the same time, I think it is overrated to a certain extent. At the end of the day, it is about your guys beating the other teams guys. In that fashion, Zorn and Blache are very similar.

I think Zorn is still trying to get the parts he has working as a coherent whole. While his basis is in the WCO, he doesn't have pieces which are perfect fits and is making adjustments on the fly. That's probably why you don't see a "personality" (whatever that really means.)

While the offense may not be super sophisticated right now, I'd prefer that over trying to be way too cute and not being able to pull it off. I think you want to be off and running when we are still learning to walk in some cases. Your prediction of a 20 point victory in New York is indicative of that. I wouldn't have picked a margin of victory that large, particularly with our issues in New York early in the season.

Let's see where we are by the end of the season before we write off Zorn, if nothing else because we have little other choice.

Jason. The problem is WE ARE BEING WAY TOO CUTE.

That's exactly the problem. When I spoke of the Giants game it was heavily influenced by the Pats game. I thought that's what we'd see. An offense throwing the ball down the field pulling the defense back. We threw the ball deep in a half more that game than BOTH games this year. That's what this team has to be to be effective. It's not cute. It's what we have.

[TheLongshot]

Jason. The problem is WE ARE BEING WAY TOO CUTE.

I don't call a smattering of gadget plays being way too cute. Anyways, I expect most of them to go away. I think the only reason why we saw the halfback option last week because he wanted a different look in the end zone. I think he might have been correct in his self analysis a couple of days later that it might have been better to run such a play on 1st down. Yeah, he still makes rookie mistakes on occasion, but such is the growing pains of a new playcaller.

That's exactly the problem. When I spoke of the Giants game it was heavily influenced by the Pats game. I thought that's what we'd see. An offense throwing the ball down the field pulling the defense back. We threw the ball deep in a half more that game than BOTH games this year. That's what this team has to be to be effective. It's not cute. It's what we have.

You mean the preseason game? We didn't pass all that deep, really. We did get a big play out of Cooley, but it really wasn't that deep, maybe 20 yards down the field. It wasn't exactly one of the most impressive games we had, because other than that first drive and the big catch by Cooley, we didn't really do all THAT much.

We threw down the field about as much against the Giants. The problem was that we were our own worst enemy with execution. Things are different if ARE isn't tackled for a loss, if Campbell doesn't make a stupid throw across the line of scrimmage, if Campbell actually steps up in the pocket like he was supposed to.

A quote from Sonny, which I happen to agree with:

"Play-calling, let me say this, and I've said this as long as I've been in the game, or around the game: It's overrated," Jurgensen says. "Play-calling is overrated. And the reason I say that is that you can call the worst play in the world and if you execute it, if you go in the huddle and tell the guys to give you time, and you call a pattern and you execute it and get a touchdown, boy, what a good call that was. It could've been into double coverage and everything else, right? It's a matter of execution. The coach calls a draw play on third and eight, and he gets seven. What a dumb call. Why would you do that? But if he gets nine, it was a great call, wasn't it?"

As a corollary, if you don't have good execution, it doesn't matter how good the playcall is. In both the Giants game and to a lesser extent in the Rams game, the problem has been execution. The players know that that's what is holding this team back. Whether or not they are able to fix that issue is certainly an open question, but from what I have seen so far this season I do have hope that they can work through it and find that level of execution.

[SkinsFTW]

I'm hoping Zorn succeeds. I'm expecting our next coach to be Gruden or Cowher.

I'd probably stick with the idea of a young coach you can make your next Jeff Fisher. Maybe Jason Garrett.

Hopefully it's Gruden.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-top-ten/09000d5d810aec9a/Top-Ten-Motivational-Coaches-Jon-Gruden

[Slacky McSlackAss]

It's clear that Jason Campbell transforms into Heath Shuler when we get in the red zone. Zorn is being smart by playing it safe and at least getting us a field goal.

[SkinsFTW]

I think he might have been correct in his self analysis a couple of days later that it might have been better to run such a play on 1st down.

Why would he even have to state the obvious? To run that play from the 7 on 3rd down with the OL pass blocking, Cooley not blocking but in the End Zone, can only mean that you'd rather Portis pass for the TD than your QB. Nobody thought that was a run, nobody sold it as a run. It was Portis at QB making a TD Pass attempt.

[Birdlives]

18 games is enough to see progress.

That halfback pass leads to him wondering aloud what it takes to get a TD. He's baffled and uncertain. When faced with adversity, as he said on that clip, we're going to run it from the 9 because we can't catch.

You want to instill confidence, call the same play on the next down and give Sellers another chance. You don't stop thinking passing is allowed. It's just so strange.

Actually, after Sellers dropped the ball he called a different play, it was however a passing play. That was the 3rd down pass to ARE. I think your time of events is muddled. He spoke about not being able to pass for a TD near the end of the game after missing on DT's play, MS's play, ARE's play, and the completely inappropriate HB pass to Cooley (not in order, of course).

I wouldnt argue with him on running and going for 2 4th downs at the end of the game.

1. It worked.

2. It would not have changed things much from kicking the field goal and kicking off, EXCEPT, you would have to kick off.

As far as play calling, I completely disagree. Zorn is very open to change. More than most. I also see where that will serve us well this season. I don't see where we're going to get better by bailing now, much less at the end of the season. Your opening premise in this thread is that we should fire Zorn now.

So really, what would you do. You've offered up part A, fire Zorn, even part B, implement Bugel. What's part C of this plan? Will we be contending by the end of 2010?

[TK]

Maybe Jason Garrett.

That just screams of Norv Part 2.

[88Comrade2000]

I'm hoping Zorn succeeds. I'm expecting our next coach to be Gruden or Cowher.

I'd probably stick with the idea of a young coach you can make your next Jeff Fisher. Maybe Jason Garrett.

Jason Garrett?

Synder would only trust someone with experience and someone with heft, ie Superbowl heft. The only exception to that would be if he hired Russ Grimm. Otherwise it will be one minority and all the big name superbowl winning ex-coaches who will be candidates.

I think Cowher is Carolina's next coach.