Opposition to Health-care Reform Revives Christian Right

[Baculus]

very true. I'm against it solely for economic reasons.

Too bad most of the current over the top arguments aren't merely economic related. And add to that the trillions that were spent over the last eight years which could have paid for this system. Never mind the run-away costs in health that leads to bankruptcies, increased premiums, etc.

Economically, there is every reason to support reform when we spent twice as much per-capita then the next First World Nation. Economics is not a good reason to sit pat and do nothing, which is what we have done for the last fifteen years since the last reform effort.

[SonnySide]

Is this the part where I get to point out that liberals and blue states are better educated and more affluent than conservatives and red states?

Since we are doing our best to hit all the Tailgate talking points in this one thread... heheheh

Yes, those geniuses are resonsible for paradises like Detroit and Compton....

BTW, I believe you guys on the Left also lead us in the amount of anti-depressants and anti-psychotics consumed...

[RDSKNfaithfull]

If you believe that than there is really no room for debate. What private sector company can compete with a government agency that can operate at a loss indefinitely?

UPS, Fed Ex :whoknows:

[Johnny Punani]

Is this the part where I get to point out that liberals and blue states are better educated and more affluent than conservatives and red states?

Since we are doing our best to hit all the Tailgate talking points in this one thread... heheheh

And still people are leaving in mass because of government waste and corruption, high taxes, massive debt, and job loss...

[Predicto]

Yes, those geniuses are resonsible for paradises like Detroit and Compton....

BTW, I believe you guys on the Left also lead us in the amount of anti-depressants and anti-psychotics consumed...

Well what do you expect, when we have to deal with all these far right neanderthals all day long?

[SnyderShrugged]

UPS, Fed Ex :whoknows:

bad example.

Fed ex isnt allowed to compete in first class mail (a protected federal monopoly)

[Baculus]

Hmmmm, what would Jesus do?

Let me tell you what Jesus WOULDN'T do:

Jesus wouldn't stand on the floor of the Illinois legislature and argue that healthy babies, outside the womb and viable (that survived a failed abortion attempt), should be left to die from starvation/exposure if it was the mother's wish to have an abortion.

That's what the idiot in the White House argued when he was a Senator from Chicago.

Please provide details of this speech to show that he specifically argued for this.

Opposition to the HealthCare reforms proposed by Congress is really simple: they are lying (kudos to Wilson for having the guts to call obama what he is). They are arguing one thing when the Bill contains another. It is a simple matter of control.

Do you know anything about this argument? Do you know nothing about section 246 in H.R. 3200 that specifically says that Federal funds CANNOT go to illegals?

Joe Wilson was falsely misrepresenting when he said, "you lie." In short, HE was the one lying and you are falling for it.

It does not take guts to scream and yell some rubbish. Any fool on the street corner can do that.

Framing all these proposals as "healthcare reform" while actually advocating something else is simply the Democrats being who they are.

What is this "something else" that you speak of? Are you going to trot out a list of right-wing talking points?

They have a habit of using children/dead worthless Senators as Legislative Human Shields so as to avoid any discussion, or those pesky other ideas (like the Republican proposals in Congress for Healthcare reform). "Let's do this for Swimmer Ted" is the cry. Shameless , indeed...

Yeah -- using poor children to show why they need SCHIP is horrible. What is worse -- showing that children need help to support government health insurance, or opposing this health insurance?

"Yeah, those evil Democrats extending SCHIP to millions of poor children! They are just doing it as a power grab!"

Tell those people who receive SCHIP that they Democrats only did it for a power grab, and see what they say to you.

If the Dems were truly worried about the un-insured, a 10 page Bill could be written, simply expanding Medicare/Medicaid to those who need coverage. Of course, some genius would argue "but those programs are going broke" and the sheep would be too stupid to argue otherwise...

Good idea -- this is what Democrats support, except many Republicans would oppose the expansion of Medicare or Medicaid. Why? Because they are single-payer government systems.

Maybe you are on the side of Democrats and you just do not know it.

[twa]

Economically, there is every reason to support reform when we spent twice as much per-capita then the next First World Nation. Economics is not a good reason to sit pat and do nothing, which is what we have done for the last fifteen years since the last reform effort.

Now this is a convincing post ,we need to do something.

However w/o more detail in the proposed reform(HB 3200) the result is rather unclear,but seems lacking by the CBO report.(as well as others)

And you cannot ignore the economics w/o disaster

[Baculus]

Now this is a convincing post ,we need to do something.

However w/o more detail in the proposed reform(HB 3200) the result is rather unclear,but seems lacking by the CBO report.(as well as others)

And you cannot ignore the economics w/o disaster

Sure, that is something that we can find some agreement. I think the economics is important.

We also have to remember that the GOP plan isn't free. Their alternative is to provide tax breaks to those in need so they can buy private plans. I would dare say that they have not provided any numbers what so ever in their health care alternatives.

[Baculus]

And still people are leaving in mass because of government waste and corruption, high taxes, massive debt, and job loss...

And red states are some of the largest recipients of federal aid in the nation. Part of the issue, too, has to do with the plight of the old industrial states, especially those in the rust belt that have been affected by job losses, free trade, etc.

Also, this trend has reversed -- you see people moving TO blue states from red states at this point.

http://www.esquire.com/features/data/red-states-blue-states-0709

[Larry]

UPS, Fed Ex :whoknows:

Apples and oranges.

Try to hire UPS to visit every address in the USA, six days a week, just in case that address chooses to mail a letter. Let me know how much they charge for it.

Try getting FedEx to deliver a letter for, what's it cost now days, 50 cents?

----------

In fact, there might be a parallel, here.

Medicare and Medicaid provide health coverage to the most expensive demographics in the country. They cover every person who's in those demographics, regardless of their health or previously existing conditions.

The private insurers target the segment of the market that's the most profitable, and fight over that segment, and ignore the rest.

[Larry]

Also, this trend has reversed -- you see people moving TO blue states from red states at this point.

Yeah, but the red states breed.

[twa]

Yeah, but the red states breed.

So do the blue,they just kill more off.

The trend of red states growing has not reversed,even with the stipulations in the link.

[The Sisko]

The New Testament teachings of Jesus are clear on helping poor people, but that is an injunction laid on each person individually. You will search in vain for any suggestion that anyone is supposed to force others to help poor people whether they want to or not.

A moral act must involve choice. A coerced act says nothing about the morality of the person acting. (It does say something about the morality of the person performing coercion, however.)

Oddly enough, they do seem to be hell bent (pun fully intended) on using the power of government when it comes to coercing others on homosexual issues, pornography, drugs, teaching creationism/intelligent design in schools etc.

The original point of the thread was that the religious right's position on this issue contradicts Christian doctrine. Thanks SS for helping to highlight the fact that the issue is broader than that. Much of the religious right's whole agenda is at odds with their claims to be "protecting" freedom, liberty and American ideals.

[Bang]

well, in the interest of fairness, I have grown to understand that I cant define a whole group under observations of the individuals.

I in my heart, believe that the majority of folks who follow modern Liberal beliefs are doing so with the best intent and with goodness at their core.

It;s their means that I object to, for the most part.

You're indeed the man, SS.

~Bang

[Duckus]

SonnySide is slowly becoming my new favorite poster. Highly entertaining.

[SnyderShrugged]

Oddly enough, they do seem to be hell bent (pun fully intended) on using the power of government when it comes to coercing others on homosexual issues, pornography, drugs, teaching creationism/intelligent design in schools etc.

The original point of the thread was that the religious right's position on this issue contradicts Christian doctrine. Thanks SS for helping to highlight the fact that the issue is broader than that. Much of the religious right's whole agenda is at odds with their claims to be "protecting" freedom, liberty and American ideals.

I actually agree that coersion on those things is also immoral. (though I'm not sure where intelligent design comes into play in this context).

I am religious, christian and pretty much on the right, but I wholeheartedly disagree with legislating items that do not harm anyone but themselves. I feel that any government sponsored health care option does in fact harm some for the benefit of others.

[SnyderShrugged]

You're indeed the man, SS.

~Bang

awww, thanks bang! I'd be rather hypocritical if I didnt play in total fairness.

[The Sisko]

I actually agree that coersion on those things is also immoral. (though I'm not sure where intelligent design comes into play in this context).

I am religious, christian and pretty much on the right, but I wholeheartedly disagree with legislating items that do not harm anyone but themselves. I feel that any government sponsored health care option does in fact harm some for the benefit of others.

Other than our religious views, I think we're in agreement then. However I think you are very atypical of most who make up the religious right. You seem to be a libertarian whereas most of the religious right are only concerned with implementing "God's plan" for our society. Much of the former I agree with. The latter and its ever growing influence in the GOP scares the hell out of me.

[SnyderShrugged]

Other than our religious views, I think we're in agreement then. However I think you are very atypical of most who make up the religious right. You seem to be a libertarian whereas most of the religious right are only concerned with implementing "God's plan" for our society. Much of the former I agree with. The latter and its ever growing influence in the GOP scares the hell out of me.

I think I'd pobably just consider myself a christian with small l (l)ibertarian core beliefs.

To me, the phrase "religous right" is just another name for neo-con.

There are many more christians like me than like them.

[LApunkrocker72]

I'm not a Christian but I thought being a Christian meant helping your fellow man.

The thing that really bothers me about the Christian Right is that they want to force their way of life on the rest of us. And that I think is totally uncool.

Secondly, I think the Christian Right cares more about making money than actually helping people.

[SnyderShrugged]

I'm not a Christian but I thought being a Christian meant helping your fellow man.

The thing that really bothers me about the Christian Right is that they want to force their way of life on the rest of us. And that I think is totally uncool.

Secondly, I think the Christian Right cares more about making money than actually helping people.

I think you need to read the whole thread. this ground has been somewhat covered alread.

[Major Harris]

Amazing. Yet another thread goes down in flames. :doh:

you act as if this thread wasn't delivered via molotov ****tail.

[techboy]

It's very simple, really. Jesus did command us to help the poor and the sick. He did not command us to seek out the nearest government agency to do it for us (though he didn't say we shouldn't, either).

If a person opposes health reform because he thinks it's bad for the country as a whole, he is not a hypocrite.

If a person opposes health reform because he thinks it's good for the country as a whole, but he personally doesn't want to be inconvenienced by higher taxes or something, then he is a hypocrite.

Unless you ask a person, and he is honest and tells you "yes, I'm a self-serving ****", that's something that's impossible to know, and so the thrust of this thread is ridiculous and unfair, just as it is unfair when conservatives point to what they see as the failure of the War on Poverty and assert that liberals care only about power, and poor people are just a means to an end.

[SnyderShrugged]

It's very simple, really. Jesus did command us to help the poor and the sick. He did not command us to seek out the nearest government agency to do it for us (though he didn't say we shouldn't, either).

If a person opposes health reform because he thinks it's bad for the country as a whole, he is not a hypocrite.

If a person opposes health reform because he thinks it's good for the country as a whole, but he personally doesn't want to be inconvenienced by higher taxes or something, then he is a hypocrite.

Unless you ask a person, and he is honest and tells you "yes, I'm a self-serving ****", that's something that's impossible to know, and so the thrust of this thread is ridiculous and unfair, just as it is unfair when conservatives point to what they see as the failure of the War on Poverty and assert that liberals care only about power, and poor people are just a means to an end.

incredibly well written post TB.:king: