Opposition to Health-care Reform Revives Christian Right

[twa]

This current area of discussion easily takes on the nature of catapulting bucketloads of gravel into an entire neighborhood of shared glass housing.

Hey zoony :evilg:, how about the next load of **** we pile on is working in the idea that so many of the objectionable illegals often discussed are both Christian and anti-abortion. So should the right hate on them for draining health resources or love on them for being their kind of folk and having such "anti-liberal values?" And should the left continue to defend them and appear to be so willing to provide succor, or should they be more invested in denial of free services and the pursuit of aggressive deportation to get their multi-baby-making God-fearing traditionalist candy-asses out of the country. :hysterical:

You been reading my scripts?:hysterical:

[Midnight Judges]

as if this medical plan **** weren't confusing enough, now we're intertwining it with scripture.

****, what other **** can we pile on top?

eeeeeyyy....ok. not knowing the backround here I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you lost a sig bet.

[Toe Jam]

and guess you lost a sig bet.

Correct.

[Midnight Judges]

Why doesn't anybody ever discuss the morality of leaving future generations huge amounts of debt for things we want, but don't want to pay for?

I think that is a legitimate factor that needs to be taken into account.

As someone who plans on being around long enough to pay off this debt, I think it is worth it if current estimates are anywhere near what reform will cost over the next 10 years.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I think that is a legitimate factor that needs to be taken into account.

As someone who plans on being around long enough to pay off this debt, I think it is worth it if current estimates are anywhere near what reform will cost over the next 10 years.

I agree, the health care plan with the public option will cost in 10 years less than what we've spent in the Iraq war in 8 years, and people are all the sudden are supposedly concerned about debt.

Bullets good

Health care bad.

:doh:

[techboy]

Which party is against abortion? (Keep in mind when answering, that I'm going to ask you to prove it.)

The specifics are irrelevant to my point, which is that my "accusation" sent you into full-on spin mode in an attempt to explain your support of the party and candidate that supports abortion. Many Christians would not find your explanation satisfying.

I don't find your explanation satisfying.

Keep that in mind when you don't find the explanation of Christians who oppose health care reform satisfying, before you launch into a self-righteous judgement of their understanding of their faith.

P.S. We could make the example tighter, if we wanted, not that it matters. John Mcain would have nominated justices that are pro-life like Scalia and Thomas. Barack Obama did not and will not nominate pro-life justices. The court is the only thing that matters right now for abortion, it's hanging by one vote (there are four reliable pro-life votes), and we knew going in to the election that there would very likely be at least one justice replaced this term, and it would very likely be one of the pro-choice votes being replaced.

Voting for Obama under those conditions and ensuring the survival of Roe v. Wade is real Christian... :doh:

Yeah... Not real fair, is it?

[twa]

I think that is a legitimate factor that needs to be taken into account.

As someone who plans on being around long enough to pay off this debt, I think it is worth it if current estimates are anywhere near what reform will cost over the next 10 years.

How about after that,or if the numbers switching from public plans are off?(as several studies claim,which will jack the costs significantly)

Keeping in mind that 10 yr cost est covers only 7 yrs of the plan being operational

[techboy]

I agree, the health care plan with the public option will cost in 10 years less than what we've spent in the Iraq war in 8 years, and people are all the sudden are supposedly concerned about debt.

You ever stop to consider that the war spending (as wasteful as it might have been), is why we can't afford the health care package? Does it really make sense to say that because we spent a lot before, we can spend a lot now?

I hear that argument being used by fighting couples ("He just bought an Xbox, and he won't even let me buy one Coach bag"), and it just has never made any sense to me.

[AsburySkinsFan]

The specifics are irrelevant to my point, which is that my "accusation" sent you into full-on spin mode in an attempt to explain your support of the party and candidate that supports abortion. Many Christians would not find your explanation satisfying.

There is nothing satisfying about any of this, Bush nominated 2 justices and they had the opportunity to review Roe on their watch, and they declined to do so. We are voting for Caesar, why do we think that we should be satisfied with them?

P.S. We could make the example tighter, if we wanted, not that it matters. John Mcain would have nominated justices that are pro-life like Scalia and Thomas.

Sorry, but McCain is not nearly that conservative I don't care what he said on the campaign. All I remember hearing during the primaries is that McCain was too liberal, and all of the sudden he was gonna be the guy to nominate the justices who would over-turn Roe. Please.

[AsburySkinsFan]

You ever stop to consider that the war spending (as wasteful as it might have been), is why we can't afford the health care package? Does it really make sense to say that because we spent a lot before, we can spend a lot now?

I hear that argument being used by fighting couples ("He just bought an Xbox, and he won't even let me buy one Coach bag"), and it just has never made any sense to me.

The health care plan will pay for itself....how is the Iraq war going to pay for itself? This is the bloody hypocrisy of the Christian Right who stood lock step with Bush on Iraq and yet when it comes to spending for health care all of the sudden they are against it. I'm sorry, but when those who claim Christianity are more willing to buy bullets than band-aids then it is a sad day for the public face of Christianity in America.

[techboy]

Sorry, but McCain is not nearly that conservative I don't care what he said on the campaign. All I remember hearing during the primaries is that McCain was too liberal, and all of the sudden he was gonna be the guy to nominate the justices who would over-turn Roe. Please.

Again, you might want to remember, as you're spinning away, that many Christians would find this explanation very weak, and perhaps apply that understanding to your judgement of the explanation of anti-health reform Christians, before you get too carried away with your judgment of the hearts of others.

[twa]

I agree, the health care plan with the public option will cost in 10 years less than what we've spent in the Iraq war in 8 years, and people are all the sudden are supposedly concerned about debt.

Bullets good

Health care bad.

:doh:

I love this analogy

So you support spending more than the war in a unending program?

A eternal WOT equivalent entitlement spending spree is OK,but a limited engagement is unaffordable:doh:

[AsburySkinsFan]

Again, you might want to remember, as you're spinning away, that many Christians would find this explanation very weak, and perhaps apply that understanding to your judgement of the explanation of anti-health reform Christians, before you get too carried away with your judgment of the hearts of others.

So, let me see if I get this straight, I can't support a President who is Pro-Choice and yet wants health care reform and a public option, but I can support a candidate who wasn't going to do anything to end abortion and is against health care reform with a public option...is that right?

Sorry, but I'm unconvinced. The abortion rate for those living in poverty is 300% higher than those living above the poverty line, that statistic should wake us up to the fact that if you want to end abortion you end it by taking away the motivation for it. Do that and you've made a law allowing abortions irrelevant.

I also think its funny that because Obama is Pro-Choice as is McCain that they Christians aren't supposed to support health care with a public option because its Obama's idea. I guess if it was Bush's idea it would have been ok, even though the abortion rate in America rose under Bush higher than it was under Clinton. And you say my argument is unsatisfying.

[techboy]

The health care plan will pay for itself....

If you actually believe that the health care plan will pay for itself (a dubious proposition, especially given the history of past presidents and their ridiculously rosy budget projections for their programs), then you don't need to talk about spending at all. There is none.

If you do need to justify spending, then pointing to other spending is a silly way to go about it.

Crap. Jumbo was right. I'm about to let myself get dragged into this.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I love this analogy

So you support spending more than the war in a unending program?

A eternal WOT equivalent entitlement spending spree is OK,but a limited engagement is unaffordable:doh:

Sorry, but you're describing a plan that is not being considered, because I don't see anywhere a "spending spree" plan, try being at least pretending to accurately describe the plan. Also Iraq as a limited engagement, really, because it was the Neo-Con plan to have a permanent US presence in the middle east which is why there was NEVER an exit strategy for Iraq.

10 billion a month in Iraq...good.

health care bad.

[techboy]

So, let me see if I get this straight, I can't support a President who is Pro-Choice and yet wants health care reform and a public option, but I can support a candidate who wasn't going to do anything to end abortion and is against health care reform with a public option...is that right?

You're so deep in spin mode that you're completely missing my point altogether. Try again.

I am not trying to tell you that you shouldn't have voted for Obama.

That is a matter for your own conscience, and if you decided that your Christian faith is compatible with voting for Obama and the Democrats, then so be it.

I couldn't reconcile it, but that's me.

My point is that you need to look in a mirror. You are becoming outraged because you think that I am judging your vote by my understanding of Christianity, and you see it as unfair.

Now, take that righteous indignation and try to extend the concept to those Christians that might disagree with you on health care.

In other words, who died and made you judge of Snydershrugged (to pick out one Christian I know of that opposes this bill)?

Just a hint... It wasn't Jesus.

I also think its funny that because Obama is Pro-Choice as is McCain that they Christians aren't supposed to support health care with a public option because its Obama's idea.

Oh, and just for the record, McCain is pro-life.

[twa]

Sorry, but you're describing a plan that is not being considered, because I don't see anywhere a "spending spree" plan, try being at least pretending to accurately describe the plan. Also Iraq as a limited engagement, really, because it was the Neo-Con plan to have a permanent US presence in the middle east which is why there was NEVER an exit strategy for Iraq.

10 billion a month in Iraq...good.

health care bad.

HB3200 costs according to the CBO(with only 7 yrs of actual coverage)

WITH costs increasing if more switch to the public plan than projected

Want more specifics?:evilg:

We have always (in recent history) had a military presence in the ME,Iraq is simply a different base and a relatively minor cost for a continuing force presence.

What...you don't trust O to honor the drawdown agreement?

[Pskins]

for all opposed to health care reform.

Please sign a legal document so hospitals can legally

refuse you care.

You will die quickly and save money for everyone else

Thank You

The rest of us.

Thats off my chest now flame away

[Smoot Point Really]

Such generalization and hate. This is America, I don't think you could find any two people that have the same views on every subject, yet he lumps 150 million people into one pile and ****s on them. It's really funny, but still frightening that an educated human being is still able to think this way. I guess they didn't pay attention when fallacies were being discussed.

Show me where I am wrong with my statement that you quote... Your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I'm actually not sure who you were responding to. What 150 million people are you accusing me of "lumping into one pile"?

Please don't respond unless you can: 1) Show me where my statement is wrong... 2) Explain these 150 million...

[twa]

for all opposed to health care reform.

Please sign a legal document so hospitals can legally

refuse you care.

You will die quickly and save money for everyone else

Thank You

The rest of us.

Thats off my chest now flame away

Which reform?

You will be glad to know the documents are signed as well as Dr and family informed.

Do I get a cookie?:cool2:

[Smoot Point Really]

Rubbish. And not only rubbish, but an elitist, inclusive way of looking at Christianity. This is the exact sort of small-minded hypocrisy that made me post on this thread in the first place. It's the sort of attitude that represents everything that's wrong with the Christian Right. You even denounce other Christians, as if your faith is superior to anyone else by virtue of their political stance.

Just to let you know... You proved my point in just about every way.

1) I never mentioned my faith at all. I only spoke about liberals and how they view the Christian traditions that have been handed down from England and America. It is as if you are conditioned to view everything that I say in a negative light, so you "filled in the blanks" a bit.

2) I don't know your faith, but from what I read: You think that Christianity can be separated from its traditions and that it fits entirely into your liberal worldview of what Christianity is. Much like a liberal would view the Constitution. As long as you have the Bible and can bend it's meanings to make you feel "saved", who cares about tradition?

3) Honestly? I don't know why a liberal would be offended by what I said. Many liberals\progressives blame Judeo-Christian tradition for all types of oppression.

As for the "will of the people" comment... Have you even looked at the polls lately? Even if Obama won an election just over a year ago, it's fairly clear that his popularity has taken a steep nose dive since Congress started pushing these bills. So, do you believe it's the Conservative Christians stopping this bill?

[Smoot Point Really]

Who exactly are you to pass judgement on anyone else's interpretation of scripture, be they liberal, conservative or otherwise? And how is it that European/American traditionalists Christians are the "lucky" ones to be singled out for such "persecution"?

I'm persecuting a liberal because I will immediately disregard his arguments? What kind of light-weight are you? Please... Read my post again. You are just conditioned to disagree with me. I think what I wrote was fairly non-controversial.

[Midnight Judges]

You ever stop to consider that the war spending (as wasteful as it might have been), is why we can't afford the health care package? Does it really make sense to say that because we spent a lot before, we can spend a lot now?

That's true, but Dems have to take the opportunity while they can. Healthcare reform is larger than the next few years of debt. And even if Dems did drastically reduce the deficit, the next Republican would just cut taxes/defense spend until the deficit expanded again and we'd be right back where we are now.

[twa]

Next few yrs?...is that what you think?

I'm glad I'm old:)

[Baculus]

Just to let you know... You proved my point in just about every way.

And what was your point? Oh, this is what you said: "A liberal's mindset is to dishonor tradition and disrespect anything that a European/American traditionalist would consider sacred, especially their Christian faith (even those who call themselves Christians)."

So, HOW did I prove your "point"?

1) I never mentioned my faith at all. I only spoke about liberals and how they view the Christian traditions that have been handed down from England and America. It is as if you are conditioned to view everything that I say in a negative light, so you "filled in the blanks" a bit.

Re-read what you posted. This isn't what you said.

2) I don't know your faith, but from what I read: You think that Christianity can be separated from its traditions and that it fits entirely into your liberal worldview of what Christianity is. Much like a liberal would view the Constitution. As long as you have the Bible and can bend it's meanings to make you feel "saved", who cares about tradition?

I was raised a Christian and still consider that to a part of my background (meaning I do not go to Church every Sunday). From my POV, I see these right-wingers as the one who are "bending" tradition to make them feel "saved." Apparently they feel they can do what they want as long as they accept Jesus as their lord and savior.

But WHAT traditions are you talking about? Free market laissez-faire economics is not part of this tradition, and yet, the Christian right-wing has mixed in modern politics with this religious tradition. You obviously did not read my post from a week ago that demonstrated that the traditionalists from a century or two ago were often Christian "socialists" who saw liberalism with its market ideas and division of property as a threat to the communal tradition of the English countryside. Liberalism was radical to these traditionalists.

Here is the irony:

You do not even realize that you, yourself, have liberal ideals which would have been rejected a century ago by "traditionalists."

3) Honestly? I don't know why a liberal would be offended by what I said. Many liberals\progressives blame Judeo-Christian tradition for all types of oppression. Conservatism has absorbed and even co-opted these classical liberal philosophies while behaving as if they invented them.

As for the "will of the people" comment... Have you even looked at the polls lately? Even if Obama won an election just over a year ago, it's fairly clear that his popularity has taken a steep nose dive since Congress started pushing these bills. So, do you believe it's the Conservative Christians stopping this bill?

Of course Obama's numbers have dropped a little bit, especially with the relentless attacks and outright lying from the right-wing. But, more so, this country is going through a difficult period, with two wars and an economic crises. His support will fluctuate up and down over the next few years. Otherwise, though, Obama still has support from his electorate. THIS is the "Will of the people," the people who elected him.

I mean, really -- are you really looking to Obama's opposition as evidence of people's unhappiness with him?

As far as the conservative Christians stopping the bill -- well, they sure are trying. And it really says a lot that they have to resort to misrepresentations to achieve this objective.