Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 fansince62 is smart for a crotchety old man! I can't figure out how such an obviously intellgent man can be wrong as much as he is. When Brady went to negotiate his deal, he told Pats management that he would be willing to sign for a bit less money so they can surround him with more talent under the cap.Brady was the smart one. He knows his stock would plummet if he doesn't get a lot of help.Oh, and Bellichecks' record sans BradyNever gonna give up on this old chestnut, are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Not to invalidate the rest of your post but BB is a defensive guru not offensive. He comes from the Bill Parcells tree and was the Defensive Coordinator with the Giants under Parcells in the 80's before he got his Head Coaching shot with the Browns were he was VERY mediocre without the benefit of an elite QB by the way.Also Marroney is far from a great running back but we digress. So who's running the offense over there in NE? And last I checked their defense wasn't that great. I mean its not a bad defense, buti ts not a top 5 defense... (not arguing with you, i just hear how much of a 'genius' BB is... well... if all he's doing is the defense... then i strongly disagree with those evaluations of him....) As far as Marroney - I said great, but I didn't mean great as in all time great, or that he's the best in the league. I meant it like he's a good RB to have on your team... he's big, strong, and bowls people over - doesn't fumble (a lot), and seems to have good speed. I'd certainly take Marroney on the Redskins as a compliment to Portis... I'd also take him on my fantasy team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnb123 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Extremeskins: Where slandering future HOF QB's in defense of Jason Campbell is all in a day's work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 So who's running the offense over there in NE?And last I checked their defense wasn't that great. I mean its not a bad defense, buti ts not a top 5 defense... (not arguing with you, i just hear how much of a 'genius' BB is... well... if all he's doing is the defense... then i strongly disagree with those evaluations of him....) As far as Marroney - I said great, but I didn't mean great as in all time great, or that he's the best in the league. I meant it like he's a good RB to have on your team... he's big, strong, and bowls people over - doesn't fumble (a lot), and seems to have good speed. I'd certainly take Marroney on the Redskins as a compliment to Portis... I'd also take him on my fantasy team The Pats offense was put together by Charlie Weiss who was then hired to be the HC at Notre Dame. He was replaced by Josh McDaniels who was hired this offseason to be HC at the Broncos. Weiss sans Brady has been less than successful with the Irish thus far and lets just say McDaniels is having an 'interesting' start to his HC career and thats before the season even starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 The Pats offense was put together by Charlie Weiss who was then hired to be the HC at Notre Dame. He was replaced by Josh McDaniels who was hired this offseason to be HC at the Broncos.Weiss sans Brady has been less than successful with the Irish thus far and lets just say McDaniels is having an 'interesting' start to his HC career and thats before the season even starts. so thenw hy all the praise for BB? Is it strickly for the talent he's brought to the team? Cause their defense is mediocre at best Weiss has had a rough start, but predictions for ND are pretty high this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 Strictly looking at present qb's, why are the best ones in the league right now the ones with the most mental acuity then?Noone is going to say that Peyton has the biggest arm, or that brees is the most athletic. Even Kurt Warner is like 40 years old. One thing they have in common: they know the game better than anyone else. Manning is definently one of the most cerebral qb's of all time Some QBs do have a better head for the game, but we're talking about football, not rocket science. QBs like Manning and Brady are mostly successful because they operate with better teams and better schemes. Their influence on the game mentally is mostly hype trying to justify what can't be justified by their physical talents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 It a mixture which is incredibly difficult to judge by any formula or measurment - witness that Joe Montana consensus best QB of all time was, what, a 4th rounder and that Hall of Fame lock Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. QBs drafted in the low rounds go to better teams where they have a much better chance to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodriggo Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 One major issue I have with this is that nowhere are you calculating intangibles such as winning three Super Bowls. You cannot underestimate this. He has infinitely more confidence and leadership than Campbell does and might ever have regardlesss of system. Montana was a system qb but he took the Chiefs to the AFC Championship in one season. Brady here? We're instant contenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 making up fake percentages to assign to positions just helps your argument that a QB is not as important as some make it out to be. there is no way for you to prove that any of your numbers hold any weight at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 . What exactly do you look for in a QB? I start with his ability to throw a football. I don't want to know how good the team he played for was, so stats don't interest me much.I guess there is nothing that stands out about Peyton Manning's game either. Same goes with Brees. But JaMarcus Russel is awesome because he can throw the ball 90 yards. Stick to what I wrote. I'm not going to defend every ridiculous position you can dream up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 QBs drafted in the low rounds go to better teams where they have a much better chance to succeed. What? That makes zero sense. You could argue that QBs drafted high in the 1st round go to worse teams and so have a worse chance of success but it does not work the other way around. A QB picked in the 5th or 6th round has as much chance of landing with Patriots as say the Lions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 making up fake percentages to assign to positions just helps your argument that a QB is not as important as some make it out to be.there is no way for you to prove that any of your numbers hold any weight at all. If my numbers aren't reasonable, you should be able to tell me where I've gone wrong. You're a football fan, aren't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 QBs drafted in the low rounds go to better teams where they have a much better chance to succeed.FYI, every team drafts in every round.Are you just padding your post count with this lunacy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 If my numbers aren't reasonable, you should be able to tell me where I've gone wrong. You're a football fan, aren't you? yes i am, but im not gonna sit here and make up my own fake percentages to prove your fake percentages wrong. can i ask why you are so obsessed with assigning made up percentages that you have no way of proving whatsoever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnb123 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 QBs drafted in the low rounds go to better teams where they have a much better chance to succeed. ....last time i checked, every team has a pick in every round by default. The rams drafted a QB in the 6th round last year, and so did the colts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnb123 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I start with his ability to throw a football. I don't want to know how good the team he played for was, so stats don't interest me much. If you make it to the NFL, you can throw the football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 so thenw hy all the praise for BB?Is it strickly for the talent he's brought to the team? Cause their defense is mediocre at best Weiss has had a rough start, but predictions for ND are pretty high this year This is a subjective opinion but I think BB has been blessed by a very good front office who have given him very good talent and dumb luck having Tom Brady fall in his lap. To be fair he has done an exellent job taking adavantge of what he has, of letting his offensive people run the show on that side of the ball and of putting together generally good defenses. 3 Super Bowl wins is a great record but without Brady I doubt he wins 1. In his first stint as a Head Coach he was below average in Cleveland. 'Genius' is a very overused term in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 FYI, every team drafts in every round.Are you just padding your post count with this lunacy? hes trying to make his same old point that QBs are not that important, and that you could replace tom brady and jason campbell on both teams and the results would be close to the same because its more about the system and everyone else around the QB, not the QB himself. so he makes up fake percentages, like in his original post and plenty of other threads, to prove his point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Bleed_B&G Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 This is by far the worst thread I've ever read on ES. I mean by far. Stop drinking the cough meds and smoking crack. This is laughable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 One major issue I have with this is that nowhere are you calculating intangibles such as winning three Super Bowls. You cannot underestimate this. He has infinitely more confidence and leadership than Campbell does and might ever have regardlesss of system. Montana was a system qb but he took the Chiefs to the AFC Championship in one season. Brady here? We're instant contenders. Watching the preseason game for example, what happened to Campbell from one game to the next, he played better because he exuded confidence and leadership? Brady against the Giants in the Superbowl lost his moxie and the game went south after that? I know you aren't saying it like that but yeah I wonder about how much moxie and leadership Brady would display if he was running for his life game after game because of protection breakdowns or if he was dealing with Devin Thomas learning the WCO over lets say throwing to Randy Moss. I do think its a variable but I do think the supporting cast is a huge variable not just to the QB's success but also confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Never gonna give up on this old chestnut, are you? well if your position is that Bellicheck is a coaching juggernaut with a magical playbook that shoots bolts of lightning and rains down the plague on his enemies, then I think it's a valid point. Even those who dismiss Bellichecks' record in Cleveland find it tougher to explain Bellicheck's record in New England with Drew Bledsoe behind center. Even last year, what changed (besides Brady) from 2007? Looks like a 5 game swing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 What? That makes zero sense.You could argue that QBs drafted high in the 1st round go to worse teams and so have a worse chance of success but it does not work the other way around. A QB picked in the 5th or 6th round has as much chance of landing with Patriots as say the Lions. You're right. What I was trying to say is that the top QBs drafted usually go to crummy teams that can't support them, so it isn't just a matter of QBs being hard to grade. The biggest factor in a rookie QB's success is the team that drafts them. The Patriots had no shot at getting a Carson Palmer, as an example. So, I don't grade Brady higher than Palmer merely because his luck wasn't as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 'Genius' is a very overused term in football. "Dogged" might be a better description of Belichick. He's been around football from the coaching end of things since he tagged along behind his dad coaching at Navy. He's relentless in his study of the game, and in looking for every competitive edge - within the rules and sometimes beyond the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 This is by far the worst thread I've ever read on ES. I mean by far. Stop drinking the cough meds and smoking crack. This is laughable Then why are you wasting your time with it? Don't you have better things to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I think Oldfan should become a baseball fan, because that sport is a statistician's wet dream. EVERYTHING can be quantified in baseball. Football, not so much. But I give him credit for trying to quantify the unquantifiable. At least throwing up percentage breakdowns with a thin veneer of validity sparks some debate. But Tom Brady gives us only 1 or 2 extra wins? Get the slide rule out, Oldfan, I think you forgot to carry the 10 somewhere. I also agree with this post. Well said Dan T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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