Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 So, just to be clear, according to Oldfan, the Ravens would have gone 11-5 with Kyle Boller as their starter last year. Right? Where did I say that the quality of the QB makes no difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I think Oldfan should become a baseball fan, because that sport is a statistician's wet dream. EVERYTHING can be quantified in baseball. Football, not so much. But I give him credit for trying to quantify the unquantifiable. At least throwing up percentage breakdowns with a thin veneer of validity sparks some debate. But Tom Brady gives us only 1 or 2 extra wins? Get the slide rule out, Oldfan, I think you forgot to carry the 10 somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustangSteve Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I think that's a lot of hype. Belichik is the star of that program.I think this was proven when Brady went down, the team didn't even make the playoffs last season with out their starting QB. They won 3 Super Bowls with him, and went undefeated the last time he played, going to their 4th Super Bowl. This proving that the QB position is never underrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 Have you seen Brady's pocket presence. The dude is the best at it. Just moves side to side and up and down. He is like a joystick. He just moves slightly in up and avoids the on coming pass rush from the outside. Dude gets ride of the ball so fast. You can't compare him to JC. His footwork is good -- and much hyped because there isn't that much about his game that stands out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustangSteve Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 So, just to be clear, according to Oldfan, the Ravens would have gone 11-5 with Kyle Boller as their starter last year. Right? Exactly!!! With Tom Brady leading the 09 Redskins, we would have another trophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustangSteve Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 His footwork is good -- and much hyped because there isn't that much about his game that stands out. Holy bald headed mother of Mary :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 But I give him credit for trying to quantify the unquantifiable. . It can't be done with precision, but reasonable estimates are possible. I can prove that if you want to try to mess with those numbers arbitrarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 Holy bald headed mother of Mary :doh: Alright. What is it that stands out to you when you look at Brady's tangibles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnb123 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 His footwork is good -- and much hyped because there isn't that much about his game that stands out. ....Seriously? Have you ever watched a Pats game? I know you say the 50whatever-7 game we lost against them. If completing almost 70% of your passes, setting an all-time TD record, having a ridiculous YPA, and being a league and super bowl MVP's doesnt stand out to you, what does? What exactly do you look for in a QB? I guess there is nothing that stands out about Peyton Manning's game either. Same goes with Brees. But JaMarcus Russel is awesome because he can throw the ball 90 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnb123 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Oldfan doesn't understand what an "IQ" football player is. Everything is about physical characteristics to him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 I think this was proven when Brady went down, the team didn't even make the playoffs last season with out their starting QB. They won 3 Super Bowls with him, and went undefeated the last time he played, going to their 4th Super Bowl. This proving that the QB position is never underrated. If that's your conclusion, the 2008 Pats are evidence that nothing will change your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 It can't be done with precision, but reasonable estimates are possible. I can prove that if you want to try to mess with those numbers arbitrarily. How pretty is a flower compared to a butterfly? Oh, you need specifics? Okay, a monarch butterfly, Danaus plexippus, versus a perfect red rose. Can you give me some rough percentages on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 Oldfan doesn't understand what an "IQ" football player is.Everything is about physical characteristics to him No, the mental aspect of the game is important; but I turn a deaf ear when fans and the media talk about a QB's mental abilities because it's 99.9% BS meant to degrade one QB or puff up another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnb123 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 No, the mental aspect of the game is important; but I turn a deaf ear when fans and the media talk about a QB's mental abilities because it's 99.9% BS meant to degrade one QB or puff up another. Then what exactly makes any QB better than the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 How pretty is a flower compared to a butterfly? Oh, you need specifics? Okay, a monarch butterfly, Danaus plexippus, versus a perfect red rose. Can you give me some rough percentages on that? False analogies. I can show you studies to support the roughly 3-3-1 ratio that I've used for the offense, defense and special teams, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 good luck with this one!1) no one has to accept numbers drawn out of the ole OF black hat at random! 2) the whole structure of the argument completely glosses over the great variety in formulas for success we have observed over the last 5, 10, 15, 20....you pick em....years I just don't get why it is teams like the Colts pay players like Manning so much cashola. afterall, they only acconut for 10% of the overall winning formula........I'm smellin a conspiracy!!!!!! on the other hand....your efforts at provoking debate ALWAYS prove entertaining and above board.... fansince62 is smart for a crotchety old man! When Brady went to negotiate his deal, he told Pats management that he would be willing to sign for a bit less money so they can surround him with more talent under the cap. However, Bob Kraft and Bill B. were prepared to make him the highest paid player in football. I think that says it all. Oh, and Bellichecks' record sans Brady ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 Then what exactly makes any QB better than the other? Physical and mental abilities, but the physical are more easily measured and harder to hype. No one, for example, would say that Montana was a better passer than Marino. So, if they want to hype Joe, it has to be on some aspect having to do with mental superiority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 fansince62 is smart for a crotchety old man! When Brady went to negotiate his deal, he told Pats management that he would be willing to sign for a bit less money so they can surround him with more talent under the cap. However, Bob Kraft and Bill B. were prepared to make him the highest paid player in football. I think that says it all. Oh, and Bellichecks' record sans Brady ... See, Brady would DESERVE to be the highest paid. Not Eli :no:What is Bill's record sans Brady? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Bleed_B&G Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Alright. What is it that stands out to you when you look at Brady's tangibles? everything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnb123 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Physical and mental abilities, but the physical are more easily measured and harder to hype. No one, for example, would say that Montana was a better passer than Marino. So, if they want to hype Joe, it has to be on some aspect having to do with mental superiority. Strictly looking at present qb's, why are the best ones in the league right now the ones with the most mental acuity then? Noone is going to say that Peyton has the biggest arm, or that brees is the most athletic. Even Kurt Warner is like 40 years old. One thing they have in common: they know the game better than anyone else. Manning is definently one of the most cerebral qb's of all time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Ken Beatrice used to say that in playoff hockey, a hot goalie trumped anything else on the ice. It was almost like a fundamental flaw in NHL hockey... no matter how good a team was otherwise, they could be stymied by a hot goalie on a roll. That's at the top of the game-changing spectrum for one player. At the bottom of that spectrum is, what? Maybe using a rookie coxswain with a veteran crew of scullers at the Henley Regatta? A great quarterback like Tom Brady is closer to the top of that game-changing spectrum than the bottom. Percentages be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Physical and mental abilities, but the physical are more easily measured and harder to hype. No one, for example, would say that Montana was a better passer than Marino. So, if they want to hype Joe, it has to be on some aspect having to do with mental superiority. Your right nobody would say Montana was better passer than Marino but very few people outside South Florida would say Marino was a better QB than Montana. With one drive to save my life I want Montana under centre not Marino. You know as well as I do that there is far more to playing QB than physical ability. The mental part is not about intelligence or even football IQ either its more complex and harder to pin down than that. Its a wierd mixture of physial ability plus intelligence, plus football IQ, plus ability to deal with pressure, plus maturity, plus focus, plus desire, plus lots of other things we could probably list here. Add in then the coaching, talent on the team around him put in a dollop of good old fashioned luck and simmer for about 15 years. Then judge with the benefit of hindsight. It a mixture which is incredibly difficult to judge by any formula or measurment - witness that Joe Montana consensus best QB of all time was, what, a 4th rounder and that Hall of Fame lock Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 The QB is the most important position on the field without question. A great one makes all the other positions great also...Besides Randy Moss, name an outstanding offensive player on the Patriots team...there's not one... he makes everyone raise to his level. And Moss wasn't even around when they were winning Super Bowls.... i completely disagree welker is a great slot style WR. Maroney is a great RB. The pats are known for their top teir O Line and blocking schemes. Then factor in the fact that BB is considered one of the better offensive gurus in the league, and you have a great offense with brady at the helm. Last season is a great example. Rarely can your 'all star' starting QB go down in the first game with a season ending injury, and have your backup QB come in and play almost as well, and lead you on to a great season. Don't forget, the fact that the patriots didn't make the playoffs had less to do with how well they played, and more to do with how well the other teams in their division played. Infact, if the pats were in any other division last year they would have been in the playoffs - and in a few would have been the division leaders. The QB often gets more credit and criticism than he deserves... its part of the position... Not saying brady isn't good - I just don't think he's as good as everyone makes him out to be, the setup NE has going on is a pretty good one... and to counter the 'qb makes e veryone else look better' comment.. the last time the redskins wont he superbowl it was because the WR's, O Line, and RB's made the QB look better than he really was... so its not always just one way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Then factor in the fact that BB is considered one of the better offensive gurus in the league, and you have a great offense with brady at the helm. Not to invalidate the rest of your post but BB is a defensive guru not offensive. He comes from the Bill Parcells tree and was the Defensive Coordinator with the Giants under Parcells in the 80's before he got his Head Coaching shot with the Browns where he was VERY mediocre without the benefit of an elite QB by the way. Also Maroney is far from a great running back but we digress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Ha ha. The voice of reason. While I appreciate the time OF took to come up with the formula, It looks nothing short of a list of excuses for JC in case he squanders another year. Yeah, pulling random percentages out of your ass is pretty tough work... Even putting Jason Campbell in the same paragraph as Tom Brady is a recipe for disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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