Jason Campbell vs. Tom Brady

[TimmySmith]

hes trying to make his same old point that QBs are not that important, and that you could replace tom brady and jason campbell on both teams and the results would be close to the same because its more about the system and everyone else around the QB, not the QB himself. so he makes up fake percentages, like in his original post and plenty of other threads, to prove his point.

What I truly believe is that this thread is merely meant to provoke and should be closed.

[Dan T.]

This is by far the worst thread I've ever read on ES. I mean by far. Stop drinking the cough meds and smoking crack. This is laughable

You must not get around much here, because I've seen threads that make this one look like Einstein's Theory of Relativity. I disagree with Oldfan, but I give him credit - he generates vigorous, thoughtful debate.

[zoony]

You must not get around much here, because I've seen threads that make this one look like Einstein's Theory of Relativity. I disagree with Oldfan, but I give him credit - he generates vigorous, thoughtful debate.

Agreed. Nothing wrong with taking an extreme position around here (npi)... that's what we do.

We just ask that some thought be put into it, which OF does. Even if he is going senile

[zoony]

Also, while we're talking about Bellichecks' master scheme, it ought to be easy to point out a half dozen or so assistant coaches who come from the Bellicheck tree that have gone on to dominate on their repsective teams. Off the top of my head, I give you:

Romeo Crennel (sp?)

Charlie Weis

That guy who sucked on the Jets and is now somewhere else (dam whats his name)

Josh McDaniel

Ouch. What happens to the scheme when Brady isn't throwing the ball?

[mnb123]

Watching the preseason game for example, what happened to Campbell from one game to the next, he played better because he exuded confidence and leadership?

Brady against the Giants in the Superbowl lost his moxie and the game went south after that? I know you aren't saying it like that but yeah I wonder about how much moxie and leadership Brady would display if he was running for his life game after game because of protection breakdowns or if he was dealing with Devin Thomas learning the WCO over lets say throwing to Randy Moss.

I do think its a variable but I do think the supporting cast is a huge variable not just to the QB's success but also confidence.

Your pointing to one game over a 3X super bowl winning career.

And just food for thought: Brady was sacked over 100 times over the first three years of his career.

[mnb123]

That guy who sucked on the Jets and is now somewhere else (dam whats his name)

Eric "Man-genius" Mangini

[Oldfan]

well if your position is that Bellicheck is a coaching juggernaut with a magical playbook that shoots bolts of lightning and rains down the plague on his enemies, then I think it's a valid point.

Even those who dismiss Bellichecks' record in Cleveland find it tougher to explain Bellicheck's record in New England with Drew Bledsoe behind center.

Even last year, what changed (besides Brady) from 2007? Looks like a 5 game swing to me.

Brady is a better QB than Bledsoe, but it is ridiculous to think that he alone made the difference between Bellichick's record in Cleveland and his success with NE and almost as ridulous to think that the 2008 Pats would have been 16-0 with Brady.

The QB plays a minor role in the overall picture. There are 21 other positions on offense and defense. Then there's the value of 25 coaches and special teamsto think about.

[FanboyOf91]

Mangini.

Also, Scott Pioli looks like the next victim. (see the first 7 Chiefs games)

[TimmySmith]

Ouch. What happens to the scheme when Brady isn't throwing the ball?

87-24 with. 51-62 without. OUCH!

[mnb123]

Brady is a better QB than Bledsoe, but it is ridiculous to think that he alone made the difference between Bellichick's record in Cleveland and his success with NE and almost as ridulous to think that the 2008 Pats would have been 16-0 with Brady.

The QB plays a minor role in the overall picture. There are 21 other positions on offense and defense. Then there's the value of 25 coaches and special teamsto think about.

Wow, so your saying a 16-0 team was probably not going to go undefeated for a 2nd season in a row. Thats a stretch (sarcasm)

You keep ignoring the fact that the pats dropped five games with the lack of brady being the only significant chance.

[Dan T.]

Also, while we're talking about Bellichecks' master scheme, it ought to be easy to point out a half dozen or so assistant coaches who come from the Bellicheck tree that have gone on to dominate on their repsective teams. Off the top of my head, I give you:

Romeo Crennel (sp?)

Charlie Weis

That guy who sucked on the Jets and is now somewhere else (dam whats his name)

Josh McDaniel

Ouch. What happens to the scheme when Brady isn't throwing the ball?

:hysterical:

The QB plays a minor role in the overall picture. There are 21 other positions on offense and defense. Then there's the value of 25 coaches and special teamsto think about.

Here's one very simple way to look at it. A very basic fact: the quarterback controls the ball on virtually EVERY offensive play that a team runs. That alone elevates his importance in the grand scheme, and heightens the importance of his mental discipline and decision-making skills.

[Oldfan]

Also, while we're talking about Bellichecks' master scheme, it ought to be easy to point out a half dozen or so assistant coaches who come from the Bellicheck tree that have gone on to dominate on their repsective teams. Off the top of my head, I give you:

Romeo Crennel (sp?)

Charlie Weis

That guy who sucked on the Jets and is now somewhere else (dam whats his name)

Josh McDaniel

Ouch. What happens to the scheme when Brady isn't throwing the ball?

The QB is a disciplined scheme is certainly a big factor (10%). But, acquiring the talent to fit the scheme and having a good defense and special teams play into it as well.

To my knowledge, Belichick didn't train his OCs beyond what they needed to know to do their job. Bill's not a humanitarian.

[theTruthTeller]

As an engineer, I'm having a problem with the overall premise. A percentage represents a ratio - what is the ratio here? If a quarterback is 10%, what is he 10% of?

Second, the guidelines presented might be interesting if you were starting teams from scratch. But we're evaluating the difference an upgrade in QB would make to a team that keeps the rest of its players. 10 of 16 games last year were decided by a touchdown or less. Four losses were decided by a touchdown or less. The question is whether having Brady on the team gets the Skins 7 more points when the game is on the line. Brady doesn't need to score 7 points, because his mere presense would open up the running game.

We've seen what happens when there is a QB change, and Todd Collins isn't Tom Brady.

[Dan T.]

Bill's not a humanitarian.

THAT's an understatement.

[I_Bleed_B&G]

Then why are you wasting your time with it? Don't you have better things to do?

At this time nope. Like I said it's laughable and I enjoy a good laugh in the morning

[Oldfan]

Here's one very simple way to look at it. A very basic fact: the quarterback controls the ball on virtually EVERY offensive play that a team runs. That alone elevates his importance in the grand scheme, and heightens the importance of his mental discipline and decision-making skills.

I'd call that a simplistic way to look at it. YOU could be taught to hand the ball to the backs. Well, maybe not YOU.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

At this time nope. Like I said it's laughable and I enjoy a good laugh in the morning

its more baffling to me that others find this to be a meaningful and interesting debate. all he did was assign imaginary numbers to something that you cant actually do and ran with it, and somehow, thats interesting?

i say the kicker is 90% of the game. and the best part is, you cant prove me wrong, because its made up! lol

[haithman]

You guys cannot be serious. I mean there is no way to justify this comparison, absolutely none. You dont need stats to compare Campbell to Brady, only a set of eyes.

[I_Bleed_B&G]

its more baffling to me that others find this to be a meaningful and interesting debate. all he did was assign imaginary numbers to something that you cant actually do and ran with it, and somehow, thats interesting?

i say the kicker is 90% of the game. and the best part is, you cant prove me wrong, because its made up! lol

I like you man. You an I always seem to think a like.

[I_Bleed_B&G]

You guys cannot be serious. I mean there is no way to justify this comparison, absolutely none. You dont need stats to compare Campbell to Brady, only a set of eyes.

you probably don't need eyes. ears would do just fine from all the cheering you hear on game day and on every sports talk that Brady is just a beast.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I like you man. You an I always seem to think a like.

you know what they say about great minds!

[redskins55]

Watch the very last play of the Patriots superbowl against the Giants. Brady throws it 70 yards *on a rope* to Randy Moss and it was nearly completed. Campbell has a strong arm but that strong? And Brady is regarded as having probably the most sound throwing mechanics in the game.

I think a more fair comparsion would be Campbell on the 2007 Patriots. Do they go 16-0 and make the superbowl?

If you think Brady has a bigger arm than Campbell you really do need to do some more research than simply using that hail marry he launched with all his might to Moss in the SB. Campbell threw the ball 60yds with a defender draped on his shoulder in the preseason game vs. New England. Moss couldn't even catch up to it!

Brady has mastered a system! And Belichick has built his organization around an abled QB. Put Manning on the patriots and he would struggle. Put Brady on the Colts and he would struggle. It has nothing to do with their abilities, its all about their coaches building their team around their strengths and allowing them to master their system. I agree with the poster. Brady alone wouldn't increase our win total by 4 or 5 games. I believe he's a better QB than Campbell at this point so I would say 2 at the most off raw talent!

[haithman]

Campbell has a huge arm but cant throw on target. Does it matter? No.

[darrelgreenie]

In another thread, zoony asked me to estimate how many more games the Skins would win if we had Tom Brady at QB. I estimated one or two. Zoony and Jumbo estimated three to five.

Do you mean this year or last year?

Because in my mind there would be a big difference.

Behind that banged up line last year i think Brady's impact would be marginalized and i would agree that he would only make a 1 or 2 game difference.

This year it appears that our OL will be better then last year.

Behind a solid OL i think the Brady's impact would be closer to 4 to 5 games.

Here's why:

I don't think it's possible for any QB to make that much difference because the QB position doesn't have that much value. This estimate will help you understand my position:

Importance to winning = 100%

20% -- Coaching

35% -- Offense

Offense Broken Down:

15% -- Running Game

....7% -- RB

....8% -- Blockers

20% -- Passing Game

....5% -- Protectors

....5% -- Receivers

...10% -- QB

*At ten per-cent, I have the QB as the most important position player by far, but he is still just a minor factor overall

I agree with your overall estimates but in Brady's case i think your making an undervaluation.

Just last year there was a 5 game difference between Cassel and Brady.

This where i think the difference appear:

o Tom Brady improves the Coaching

Tom Brady is almost like another assistant coach.

Tom Brady has had excellent coaching from the outset, his 1st QB coach was Bill Bellichick. And he's had good coaching every year to the point where i've read that Brady often ran the quarterbacks position meeting in N.E.

He knows which plays can beat certain coverages because he's been in the league long enough and has seen more defenses then most QB coaches and OCs.

Brady knows enough to tell Zorn what plays he likes and more importantly which plays won't work.

o Tom Brady improves the Passing game

_Receivers

Before Tom Brady had Moss and Welker he still one the SB with less talent at receiver. E.g.-Reche Caldwell was a decent receiver when he played with Brady.

o Tom Brady makes the OL specifically pass-protection will look better

-Brady famously gets the ball out quickly

-Teams aren't as quick to blitz Brady because he sees the blitz well and knows how to beat it

o Tom Brady improves the Running game

-The run blocking is better because defenses have to respect the pass

-RB/OL will face easier run fronts

Imo Tom Brady increases the offenses contribution to more then 35%

And Tom Brady also makes the defense better.

The offense will score more points and should have the lead more often.

Then the defense can pin their ears back and get after the opposing offense knowing that they have to pass the ball.

If Tom Brady came to Washington, he'd leave behind his biggest advantage over Jason Campbell -- several years experience in the same disciplined offense which makes possible better reads and quicker reactions.

True.

But, Brady has been around long enough to understand the concepts.

And Zorn/Brady would just have to adjust the offense to suit him.

[zoony]

Oldfan, I think you ought to go to a couple 'Skins games this season and watch the plays develop from on-high.

There ARE guys getting open, streaking across the middle and finding the holes in the zones. There are guys coming out of the backfield wide open on many plays. There are guys open deep... and more often than not, Campbell is making the incorrect read with the football and throwing it to the wrong guy.

A guy like Brady or Manning or Brees is throwing it to the CORRRECT receiver, based on what the defense is doing. ALL NFL SCHEMES PRODUCE OPEN RECEIVERS. NOT ALL NFL QB'S CAN READ THE PLAY QUICKLY ENOUGH AND GET THE BALL WHERE IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. Which is why a no name like Reche Caldwell can dominate. Not because of some magic scheme that only Bellicheck is smart enough to figure out that allows his wide receivers to run wide open. Or why guys like Anthony Gonzales or Wes Welker seem to always get open... guys who wouldn't register over 500 yards with the Redskins.

Now, I really don't want to turn this into a bash campbell debate, so anyone thinking of quoting the above and arguing with me about how Campbell reads defenses or doesnt can save it. kthxbi