Do you have a favorite play?(Looking forward to year II of Zorn's offense)

[RammsteinSkins]

Trick plays. They usually work and they are genius.

[darrelgreenie]

About Devin Thomas: Really? I didnt follow him in college. I didnt know he was nice on screens.

I remember Mike Mayock saying that Devin caught mostly bubble screens and slants and b/c of that wasn't as polished a route runner.

Analysis

Positives: NFL receiver build and long limbs. ... Gets his solid hands on the ball any way possible: reverses, bubble screens, returns. ... Quick in and out of breaks. ... Adjusts well to the ball in the air, usually snatching it with his hands. ... Quick acceleration after the catch, will rack up YAC. ... Runs solid routes, including slants inside -- and will hang onto the ball while taking the hit. ... Very willing blocker outside or in the slot on run plays, and he can eliminate the corner. ... Often lines up in the slot to take advantage of smaller nickel backs. ... Potential for a solid kick return option. ... Follows wedge, finds the lanes, gets to top speed quickly and does not go down on first contact.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/devin-thomas?id=1036

About Kelly: I dont want to invest too much in relying on Kelly, but man, if he really is healthy? I really want to see what a guy like that could do here. Ive heard him talking about becoming a RZ specialist acutally, fades in particular.

The FO and Kelly both say the knees fine, Kelly actually remarked that his hasn't felt this good in awhile.

It could just be hype, but i think the kid is finally healthy.

And i think JC trusts Kelly, Kelly wasn't in the game often, but whenever he was JC seemed to throw it his way.

About Bootlegs: Its a legit concern, you dont want your QB throwing across the field (See Brunell: Tampa). I think it would still be a good weapon to have in the playbook.

I don't think too many OCs want their across the field but JC has the arm to make those throws.

Could Zorn get better at his RZ playcalling? Absolutely, but its not only playcalls. Im not sure we had the dogs to excell down there. Now Maybe, we have some varied targets but until they see the field it will most likely be the same thing no matter who is calling plays, no matter who is throwing TDs.

IDK imo if the playcalling was a little more aggressive we would have scored more points.

It seemed at times that the playcalls/and formations didn't change when we were in the RZ.

Edit: I'm falling asleep

Some of the better RZ plays/concepts we only used 1 time.

FB Play-action x3

WR fades/fade stop x2

WR in motion until the snap then he brakes into a drag: x2

I agree that it wasn't just playcalling, and i think that Zorn will be better this year.

[jthor99]

I think Zorn has hinted several times that he would personally like to run out of more 4 WR sets.

What he's hoping for is to pound portis and run playaction fake when the defenses are stuck in that dime because of the 4-WR set.

[Hubbs]

Nice thread Hubbs big, long OP about it a year ago, i went back and read your thread i don't know how i could've missed that one.

I figure you like the play-action bootleg/roll out, but i'm curious if there were any other plays/playcalls from last that you liked?

Well, any play action pass on first down, but I already say that much in my sig. Beyond that, the deep in - we don't use them nearly enough. Virtually every time we went I-formation, max protect, play action, and had Moss run a deep post or fly route and ARE run a deep in, one of them was wide the hell open. It's one of football's nearly perfect plays, we hardly ever run it, and it makes me want to take Zorn's playchart and beat him with it.

[darrelgreenie]

I think Zorn has hinted several times that he would personally like to run out of more 4 WR sets.

What he's hoping for is to pound portis and run playaction fake when the defenses are stuck in that dime because of the 4-WR set.

I think Zorn wants to spread it out more and i sure we'll see more 4 wide next year.

But, i think Zorn prefers 3 Wide Trips because he gets to keep Cooley on the field and there is a more credible threat of playaction.

Beyond that, the deep in - we don't use them nearly enough.

Yeah, i don't recall the deep in being used often.

Off the top of my head 2 come to mind, i though he threw one to Moss vs. the Giants in the second game and definelty remember Devin catching a deep in for a 3rd down conversion.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Kudos to Darrellgreenie for coming up with a very good thread topic. BOO to all those who tried to hijack the thread with stupid snide remarks.

I personally don't like screens in general. I don't like screens to RBs, I don't like screens to TEs, and I REALLY don't like screens to WRs. (if the throw is off, it's X yards in the opposite direction for a TD the other way. Every time they throw a bubble screen, I wince.) I think that there is a place for them only as trick plays to slow down a pass rush, but should be used as such. My opinion, my opinion only, and I know it's not shared by most.

On running plays, I really wish they would bring back some semblance of the counter-gap. They tried it in 2004, decided it didn't fit Portis, and gave up on it.

Basically, what the skins run a lot is a 2 back (Sellers and Portis) with zone blocking in some manner in front of them. So Sellers picks the hole and clears out the LB and Portis has a free run through it. Or that's the theory.

This year, I would love to see a lot more of 2 WR, 2 TE sets, with 1 RB. And have all of the receivers (TEs and WRs) on the line. The TEs can either be in tight or split out, or probably a combination. You can run or throw out of this formation. I think that if you're going to run out of this formation, it sets up beautifully for a counter of some type. The TE seals the back side DE, the T and G pull, and the RB follows them threw the hold. If this sounds familiar, it won 3 SBs and got to a 4th in the 80's and early 90's. You can also pass out of that formation, and have good speed and size (Moss, DT, FD, Cooley and Portis on the field at the same time).

So, bring back the COUNTER!

On pass plays, I personally love the hitch-n-go or the slant-n-go. Both are predicated on the same principal: the WR sells a short rout, cuts in as though he is either running a hitch or slant, then "ole!" sneeks around the outside to go up field, and the QB throws a "lob" pass that hits the WR between the chasing (and now beaten) DB and the saftey coming over the top. The QB either has a 3 or 5 step, generally a quick pump, and then immediately lets the ball go.

Peyton Manning and Harrison/Wade made this an art form. They broke so many ankles, not to mention big plays, on this type of play. And GOD knows we run enough slants and hitches that the opposition should not have a problem going for the fake.

Those are the 2 that I love.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Not really been in fashion around these parts since LT snapped Joey Ts leg on the infamous throw back special play back in 85. I don't think I have seen a throw back play called by the Redskins since that play.

There have been a few. Brad Johnson threw a couple (Pitch back from Stephen Davis), and I distinctly remember that Brunell threw one out of bounds (shocker) one year.

But you're right. Not many. I was SHOCKED to see Gibbs call one. It might have been Saunders, actually. I don't remember when it was, but I remember it went horribly.

[eljeasel]

Kudos to Darrellgreenie for coming up with a very good thread topic. BOO to all those who tried to hijack the thread with stupid snide remarks.

x2

I personally don't like screens in general. I don't like screens to RBs, I don't like screens to TEs, and I REALLY don't like screens to WRs. (if the throw is off, it's X yards in the opposite direction for a TD the other way. Every time they throw a bubble screen, I wince.) I think that there is a place for them only as trick plays to slow down a pass rush, but should be used as such. My opinion, my opinion only, and I know it's not shared by most.

Youve got a supporter in me. Screens work best when the defense is vulnerable so just calling a screen to call a screen isnt something I really like. I really like when you set up plays like that, the hitches, slants, etc with variety of play calls.

On pass plays, I personally love the hitch-n-go or the slant-n-go. Both are predicated on the same principal: the WR sells a short rout, cuts in as though he is either running a hitch or slant, then "ole!" sneeks around the outside to go up field, and the QB throws a "lob" pass that hits the WR between the chasing (and now beaten) DB and the saftey coming over the top. The QB either has a 3 or 5 step, generally a quick pump, and then immediately lets the ball go.

Peyton Manning and Harrison/Wade made this an art form. They broke so many ankles, not to mention big plays, on this type of play. And GOD knows we run enough slants and hitches that the opposition should not have a problem going for the fake.

Those are the 2 that I love.

Im with you. I dont really like those plays, but I like where youre aiming. Using one tactic to set up another, one part of a good offense.

There have been a few. Brad Johnson threw a couple (Pitch back from Stephen Davis), and I distinctly remember that Brunell threw one out of bounds (shocker) one year.

But you're right. Not many. I was SHOCKED to see Gibbs call one. It might have been Saunders, actually. I don't remember when it was, but I remember it went horribly.

Yeah, if I remember correctly it was the first play called and it was an INT. Yikes. Still like to see more gadgets called.

[ACW]

I have a favorite play.

The play that ends in a TD for the Skins :point2sky

[darrelgreenie]

On pass plays, I personally love the hitch-n-go or the slant-n-go. Both are predicated on the same principal: the WR sells a short rout, cuts in as though he is either running a hitch or slant, then "ole!" sneeks around the outside to go up field,

I wish we ran these plays more also, i think Santana is a beast on double moves.

This year, I would love to see a lot more of 2 WR, 2 TE sets, with 1 RB. And have all of the receivers (TEs and WRs) on the line. The TEs can either be in tight or split out, or probably a combination. You can run or throw out of this formation.

I noticed more 2 TE sets towards the end of the season.

By season's end Zorn and the staff work speaking glowingly about Davis abilities included his blocking, i remembered reading that Davis might be a better blocker then Cooley who imo is an inconsistent but underrated blocker.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A re-cap of the Zorn offense's fan favs/plays we want more of:

Cooley on the seam route or skinny post

Portis Zone stretch

I-Form play-action Moss deep cross/drag

TE screen

WR screen

WR reverse

Play-action bootleg to Cooley

Deep comeback routes

I-Form Sellars lead plays

3 WR Moss drag from the slot

RZ WR fade routes

RZ play-action pass to Sellars

WR Post routes

Play-action verticals/ double moves

BTW-VOR which plays did you like from Zorn's offense last year?

[Hubbs]

This year, I would love to see a lot more of 2 WR, 2 TE sets, with 1 RB. And have all of the receivers (TEs and WRs) on the line.

You can't have them all on the line. Only the outside two are eligible.

[darrelgreenie]

You can't have them all on the line. Only the outside two are eligible.

Yeah you're i think he meant with the TEs on the line but that is a good thing.

In a singleback double TE set like ACE/TIGER both WRs will be off the line and thus have a clean release.

Its harder to bump/press a receiver that is off the line (which is one of the benefits of a Z or slot receiver) and our receivers aren't exactly jam proof.

[pjfootballer]

Anything that actually scores a TD!!

[Voice_of_Reason]

Yeah you're i think he meant with the TEs on the line but that is a good thing.

In a singleback double TE set like ACE/TIGER both WRs will be off the line and thus have a clean release.

Its harder to bump/press a receiver that is off the line (which is one of the benefits of a Z or slot receiver) and our receivers aren't exactly jam proof.

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. What I was trying to get at is that one thing the 'Skins did last year that I kindof loathed was that they would line Cooley up as FB, then he would motion straight forward, take 4 side steps to his right, and then stand right behind Jansen to chip on the DE after he had toasted Jansen.

Lining a TE up in the backfield negates the advantage of having 2 TEs on the field.

So what I want to see is a true single back set.

BTW-VOR which plays did you like from Zorn's offense last year?

This might not be very popular, but I actually love quick slants and skinny posts. The last true play of the (I can't remember, New Orleans or Arizona, I think it was New Orleans) game, on 4th down, Moss gave a quick outside move, then ducked inside, JC stood virtually straight up and delivered a quick strike, and it went for 5+ yards. Game over. I really like the quick slants. Don't know why.

The problem is that when you ONLY run quick slants, they become preditable. But if you can get the ball to the WR quickly, and the entire secondary is not sitting on the route because they know there's a greater chance of seeing the Lock Ness Monster pop out at the 50 yard line than a deep throw, and the WR is on the move, good things happen. That basic play won the 49ers 5 SBs, and was a staple of the Cowboys teams with Aikman and Irvin.

I just hope this year that we have more than 5 plays in the playbook. It seems like that for passing plays they ran screens, hitches, short crosses, and slants. For running plays they ran zone block blah for 3. A LOT.

I think that if we could get a little more variety, then everything would work better. Stretch the field horizontally and vertically. I like crossing routes, which put the safties into a bit of a bind if they are playing zone. I like the hitch/slant n' go, just to keep DBs honest. I like running out of different formations with different lead blockers. Just give me some variety. Short, medium, long. Don't always go for long yardarge in long yardage situations. That's harder.

I would love to see them throw a few deep ones every time they get to 2nd and 3 or better. Throw a deep post, a fade, a double move, ANYTHING. When you have down and distance in your favor, try and exploit it. Risk having third and short for the option to get a big play on second and short.

Now, this is, of course, predicated on GETTING to second and short. And if you run for 3 yards on first down EVERY SINGLE TIME, well, you're not doing yourself a lot of favors.

Kindof a tangent. But my interest is not as much in individual plays (though I do love the X's and O's) as play calling, or more correctly "Game calling." You can have great plays, but if the game is called misserably, then they won't work.

[21forlyfe]

yeah our deep pass plays.oh wait coach dosen't want to take any deep shots

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I would love to see a flea flicker on our first play to Devin Thomas. I would go three wide and show pass, hand the ball off to Portis and have him flick it back to Jason. Take a deep shot to Devin.

Have them practice this all week. This would get such a load off all of our backs. Having Jason complete a deep pass to DT our first play. Plus I don't think I've seen us throw a flea flicker in ages.

Sack, fumble.

[lzeis24]

I really liked Portis' first carry as a Redskins...I also liked the two plays that Santana caught for TDs against the Cowboys a few years back.

[moondog]

Can we PLEASE go back to throwing 2-3 screens to Moss per game? Anyone? Anyone?

[darrelgreenie]

This might not be very popular, but I actually love quick slants and skinny posts.

I remember us talking about this last year, i like the quick slant just as long as its not too shallow, i prefer a deeper slant or skinny post more, imo its harder to 'squat' or sit on a deep slant and it only takes a tic longer.

I liked seeing the slant from these formations:

Singleback Trips when: Cooley @ TE, Y (slot) and Z WR are on the same sinde of the field and the X receiver is isolated on the opposite side of the field- Thrash was often the X on these plays and it would be perfect imo for Devin and Malcolm

Singleback 4 Wide: Malcolm had his 1st catch against the Saint running a slant from the ® WR spot...(actually i think all the WR ran slants on that play)

But if you can get the ball to the WR quickly, and the entire secondary is not sitting on the route because they know there's a greater chance of seeing the Lock Ness Monster pop out at the 50 yard line than a deep throw.

I know right?? -LMAO

Kindof a tangent. But my interest is not as much in individual plays (though I do love the X's and O's) as play calling, or more correctly "Game calling." You can have great plays, but if the game is called misserably, then they won't work.

I agree 100% and i think that Zorn will continue to improve in this area.

3 area's i would like to see him improve are:

1) attacking the Cover 2 zone

2) attacking in the RZ

3) forcing teams to defend Cooley down the seam

[Hubbs]

Can we PLEASE go back to throwing 2-3 screens to Moss per game? Anyone? Anyone?

I'm actually in full support of this. I think it helps to keep the defense honest against cheating deep on Moss' side.

[mbws]

I'm partial to the one where the QB kneels down with the ball at the end of the game.

Edit: I typed this before reading other posts about this being a favorite, but I have been saying this for years.

[honejc]

Favorite plays:

1. TE bubble screen to cooley

2. WR screen to moss

[darrelgreenie]

I'm partial to the one where the QB kneels down with the ball at the end of the game.

Edit: I typed this before reading other posts about this being a favorite, but I have been saying this for years.

I know there were poeple like you that posted the V-formation as their favorite play, but while you were looking at the other posts did you realize that some people actually took the time to think of a plays other then the kneel down and it lead to a good discussion. I thought i wouldn't have to stipulate that the play be designed to gain positive yards:doh:

[Voice_of_Reason]

I remember us talking about this last year, i like the quick slant just as long as its not too shallow, i prefer a deeper slant or skinny post more, imo its harder to 'squat' or sit on a deep slant and it only takes a tic longer.

I don't disagree with that at all. The angle of the slant and the drop of the QB are key.

I guess, upon further reflection, I like it when players catch the ball on the move and in stride, preferably with momentum down the field. Which is why I like slants, posts, crossing routes, and that kind of thing. I would prefer them running down field, but even if they are running some type of a drag or crossing route, that's better than being stationary.

As stated, I personally don't care for screen plays, because you're throwing the ball behind the LOS and the receiver is generally standing still facing the QB when they catch the ball. So they have to catch, turn and run, which all takes a long time.

I don't like hitches and comebacks for the same reason. The receiver has to bring his momentum to a stop, turn around, catch the ball, then turn around and start running again. It's all very slow-developing with very little chance of serious yardage gains.

I liked seeing the slant from these formations:

Singleback Trips when: Cooley @ TE, Y (slot) and Z WR are on the same sinde of the field and the X receiver is isolated on the opposite side of the field- Thrash was often the X on these plays and it would be perfect imo for Devin and Malcolm

Singleback 4 Wide: Malcolm had his 1st catch against the Saint running a slant from the ® WR spot...(actually i think all the WR ran slants on that play)

I agree. The key, I think, is to be in a formation to force a man defense with the 1st read receiver. If you're playing zone against this type of play, you can generally get the ball off and caught in the space between the zones, but it's generally a shorter play.

Also, big receivers generally run this play better than small receivers. (except for Jerry Rice, who I wouldn't consider "Big" but was just awesome.) Irvin made a career out of it. Owens, Fitzgerald, Bowlden, and even A. Johnson all run this type of route beautifully.

I agree 100% and i think that Zorn will continue to improve in this area.

3 area's i would like to see him improve are:

1) attacking the Cover 2 zone

2) attacking in the RZ

3) forcing teams to defend Cooley down the seam

Yes, Yes, and YES.

And attacking a cover 2 doesn't mean freakin' running at it. Which is an ok tactic some of the time. You just can't do it ALL of the time. If they are playing cover 2, you have to be able to attack the damn thing. There are a million "cover 2 busters" out there. I would suggest watching old game film of the Patriots attacking the Colts over the past 5 years. Watch the way that the Pats attacked a pretty consistent cover-2 team. They seemed to have a pretty good attack. Not saying the Colts D is the 85 bears or anything, but they play that Tampa 2, and the Pats seemed to be able to move the ball against it.

Attacking in the RZ was one of the most peculiar things that they didn't do. I don't know why. But they need to do something more aggressive. Or maybe, just have more variety so everything works better.

And absolutely, they need to attack down the seam with both Cooley and Davis. Both present mis-matches. Unfortunately, last year Cooley played backup right tackle the entire season. Literally playing right behind the behind of the right tackle. Which makes using him as a weapon very difficult. That's why we saw all fo the screens and dumpoffs, and why his TD number was so pittiful.

[Voice_of_Reason]

yeah our deep pass plays.oh wait coach dosen't want to take any deep shots

Thanks for adding a ton if deep and insightful thoughts to this thread.