What's Worse...DUI Manslaughter or Dog Fighting?

[chasefan31]

These 2 cases have nothing to do with the value of a dogs life vs. a human's.

I'm not sticking up for Dante, but what he did was an accident. A stupid accident that should have been avoided, but an accident none the less. He should have called a cab, and nothing would have happened. He made a poor decision while under the influence and deserves punishment(probably more than 30 days). He accidentally ran over someone which resulted in a death. It's possible he would have hit the guy even if he wasn't drinking, it wasn't even at a crosswalk and it was at night. It's possible the other guy was drinking and didn't look both ways before putting himself in the street in the middle of the night.

What Vick did, he thought about every night when he went to bed, and kept doing it the next day. He oversaw the torture and abuse of dogs, went home, went to bed, and did it again day after day. I think part of his punishment is a result of "intent" and "torture". Things a jury don't exactly like to hear.

I really don't think it's fair to compare the two incidents or punishments. Just saying there is a lot more to it than human life vs. dog life.

[PleaseBlitz]

Vick also financed and operated an interstate criminal organization. Like it or not, that is more than killing a few dogs. Granted, the criminal organization's chief crime is gambling and killing dogs, but that doesn't change what it is by the law.

No, no, no, he just killed a few stupid dogs. There are no other issues to consider here.

[SonOfWashington]

30 ****ing days? Unbelievable. :doh:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090616/ap_on_re_us/fbn_stallworth_pedestrian_killed

[#98QBKiller]

Since when is lying under oath not perjury? You weren't "insinuating." You stated he committed perjury. This is simply not true.

I'm not getting into a semantics war about what I did or didn't say. But since you're reading comprehension skills are low, I'll help you out.

I originally said:

Stallworth pleaded guilty, and Vick was busted for lying under oath if I'm not mistaken.

Me clarifying that I was wrong after looking it up:

After actually looking it up, he received such a strict penalty at the judges discretion for initially being uncooperative and for lying about his involvement in the actual killings.

Despite my clarification, you asked:

Can you provide a link that he committed perjury?

I responded:

I didn't say he committed perjury? :whoknows:

Maybe you're getting that I insinuated it in my first post but I looked it up and clarified that the judge gave him a harsh penalty based on not being cooperative and for lying (polygraph test asking whether he killed dogs or not/failing a drug test for marijuana when he said he wasn't using).

Here are two links from ESPN that explain the judges decision:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=3148826

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3148549

And explained it all to you. But it's ok if you don't want to talk about any of my other points. I think you, I, and most everyone in this thread know you're in the wrong about the situation(s).

[killerbee99]

There is plenty wrong with the picture. Our culture's obsession with animals is flat-out mental illness.

Just as bad are all the guys in jail for years b/c they sold a little pot.

I agree, cue the they are defenseless excuses....some people would save an animal/their pets rather than their fellow human being/stranger if they had to choose

[hokie4redskins]

I read it, you are obviously having trouble comprehending the words on the page.

He nailed Vick for lying to FBI agents during a polygraph session about his role in execting 7 dogs, plus smoking weed. ****, im getting tired of having to spell things out to you like a toddler. You actually quoted a paragraph that completely refutes what you posted after it. :doh:

From the guy who could never grasp 34>17.

You're completely missing my point.

[jroc96]

So nobody in this thread could fathom watching a dog fight?

[killerbee99]

I would watch dog fighting, heck they do that in nature anyways......animal planet wild dogs of Africa

[chasefan31]

And no, I'm not some animal rights freak. I coon hunt year around and my dogs regularly kill wounded coon on the ground. The dogs sometimes get tore up a little, but I don't intentionally put my dogs in a cage and have them fight stuff. Part of the dogs job is to finish the job if I can't get there quickly so that the coon aren't suffering. I know it seems contradictory, but it's just like deer hunting, the point is to harvest the animal with the least suffering possible.

[Heidenreich]

So nobody in this thread could fathom watching a dog fight?

Catfight yes. Dogfight, not so much.....

[#98QBKiller]

Catfight yes. Dogfight, not so much.....

:laugh: Probably the best quote in this thread.

[Drop]

i like my dog more than most of the people i know. i like dogs in general more than most of the people i talk to on a daily basis.

[Pedro]

There is plenty wrong with the picture. Our culture's obsession with animals is flat-out mental illness.

Just as bad are all the guys in jail for years b/c they sold a little pot.

DUI Manslaighter is worse than Dog Fighting by a long way. I love my pets, I lost a cousin to a DUI. The in jail for pot is worse IMO. Costs the taxpayers to pay the wages of the all the extra Customs/Police/Prison Warders/Parole Officers etc plus creates a large group of people who aren't 'productive' members of society. But hey it pays some mortgages, should just be fair about it and put everyone in the yearly lottery to see who to lock up for no reasonable reason.

There wouldn't be protesting in the streets if the Iranian govt gave out free weed

EDIT: I'd like to legalise weed in my country, use the tax money saved to help pay off this debt we now have and have a franchise system for growing and selling weed. Set the franchise fee at a low rate but enough to pay repayments on the cost of getting everyone in the country on true high speed fibre optic internet (which can then be franchised out to access/content providers ((can see a way around the illegal download problem in a small subscription here)) which will help us make money in the future as well as create jobs now.

May as well have my weed money do some good for people other than me

[PleaseBlitz]

From the guy who could never grasp 34>17.

You're completely missing my point.

Not missing it, its just a stupid point.

[MEANDWARF]

Vick got what was coming to him. Stallworth got off easy

[Destino]

Organzing a criminal enterprise that crosses into multiple states for the purpose of torturing animals and gambling is a bigger crime in my opinion than DUI Manslaughter. Do you think a drunk 20 year old is a bigger criminal than a member of an organized crime syndicate? I don't.

Certainly the effect of the drunk driving incident in question are more heart breaking. A family lost it's father/son/husband. That's hard to take and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

That is not to say however that an accident we view as criminal because of the great amount of negligence and irresponsibilty existing at the root of it makes one as big a threat to society as someone willing to fund and organize a criminal enterprise. Organized crime often encompasses a great deal more than one crime and it takes a serious disregard for the law and society in general to go to such an extreme step as setting up an outfit that exists soley to break the law for personal gain. That is what Vick did. He didn't just fight his dog (which IMO is pretty damn bad in it's own right). He set up and financed a dog fighting ring that crossed state lines for the purpose of gambling on fights. He even purchased the property and customized it to make for a suitable venue. This is no small thing. It is not something he did by accident after pounding one too many at the bar and lacking the mental strength or maturity to call a cab. He planned it and carefully concealed evidence.

Vick is by far the bigger criminal.

[#98QBKiller]

Organzing a criminal enterprise that crosses into multiple states for the purpose of torturing animals and gambling is a bigger crime in my opinion than DUI Manslaughter. Do you think a drunk 20 year old is a bigger criminal than a member of an organized crime syndicate? I don't.

Certainly the effect of the drunk driving incident in question are more heart breaking. A family lost it's father/son/husband. That's hard to take and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

That is not to say however that an accident we view as criminal because of the great amount of negligence and irresponsibilty existing at the root of it makes one as big a threat to society as someone willing to fund and organize a criminal enterprise. Organized crime often encompasses a great deal more than one crime and it takes a serious disregard for the law and society in general to go to such an extreme step as setting up an outfit that exists soley to break the law for personal gain.

Great post Destino. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[The Evil Genius]

It's funny (or sad) how most Vick apologists do not talk about the tax evasion, racketeering, and other federal/state laws that were broken and simply state that Vick is/was in jail for dogfighting.

[Destino]

It's funny (or sad) how most Vick apologists do not talk about the tax evasion, racketeering, and other federal/state laws that were broken and simply state that Vick is/was in jail for dogfighting.

Exactly. They act as if he was walking his dog one day and happened upon a dog fight and decided "hey, why not?!"

[Spartacus87]

From the guy who could never grasp 34>17.

You're completely missing my point.

Classic.

H4R can't comprehend a larger point overall and resorts to the usual "scoreboard" argument. Especially for this thread, that's just ridiculous.

After my mother was hit by a drunk driver a few years ago and her wrist was permanently injured, it's definitely made me take a harder stance on things like DUIs. One of my good friends in college blacked out at the beach one weekend, borrowed a guy's car, and hit and killed a kid walking across the street outside the bar, and he's now serving 20 years for DUI Manslaughter in a state prison a couple counties away.

Obviously there's a line between celebrities and regular people, but if the family was content with any large sum Stallworth gave them, and it was part of their plan for a plea deal, then personally I can't really complain. He probably should serve more time by principle of his actions, and will probably be suspended a good amount of games by Goodell.

As far as Vick goes though, his apologists also forget his character issues leading up to his conviction, including such highlights as the "Ron Mexico" incident and giving the bird to Falcons fans. He got entirely what he deserved.

[The Evil Genius]

Actually - Vick didn't get what he deserved. He didn't get tried at the state level for all the state crimes he committed, correct?

[Spartacus87]

Actually - Vick didn't get what he deserved. He didn't get tried at the state level for all the state crimes he committed, correct?

My memory on the exact details of the case are a bit fuzzy, but I don't believe he did, no. I think I recall the VA state courts wanting to try him, as well as another state or two, but the Feds just made it their priority case instead.

Either way, he could have gotten added time or punishment possibly sure, but two years hard time in a Federal Pen, along with ending up bankrupt and sold out by everyone he believed to be his closest friends is a good amount for him to now have to deal with.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Now we're getting into a classic philosophical argument that can be seen in modern times with the DUI.

Does it really make a person worse if they hit and killed someone when they were driving drunk as opposed to merely driving at the same level of intoxication? Assuming Stallworth was inhibited by his drinking, it really was a matter of chance that the pedestrian was there...had the man not been there Stallworth could have still been pulled over and charged with DUI but not manslaughter, because he wouldn't have killed someone and yet he was really doing the same 'bad' thing in both situations.

Its an interesting argument, both sides have relevant points because the action of getting behind the wheel intoxicated is obviously exponentially worse when you hit someone, but that's not always the "fault" of the driver (in that it was chance that the pedestrian was there, obviously the driver is at fault for driving drunk).

Yes, its a worse overall end consequence that the man was in the crosswalk, and yet that really comes down to the random situation that Stallworth drove into.

This does relate to the topic, believe it or not. I think Vick is disgusting and its not just because I'm a dog lover per se. You're taking innocent animals and training them to be killing machines, harming other innocent animals that would have no interest in doing what they were trained to do (fight other dogs) had it not been for Vick and his friend's actions.

Vick didn't lie under oath but he lied to Blank (who did just about everything for Vick and then some) and to Goodell. He formed a gambling ring, abused and killed innocent animals (not just in the ring mind you) and was generally a scum bag.

Now, killing a person is worse for sure--but I challenge all of you to tell me with a straight face that you've never gotten behind the wheel at some point in your life when you probably shouldn't have, whether it be from drinking or another drug...not defending Stallworth by any means but think about that night (or nights) when you had probably had a few too many to be driving and then what would have happened if you hit someone? You'd defend yourself and say "Well I'm not a murderer, it just so happened that he was there and I was somewhat drunk".

Just thought I'd make the topic even more confusing and less cut and dry...they're both dumbasses and both probably deserve more punishment.

EDIT: Re-reading it, it sounds like I'm defending either Stallworth or DUI, which I'm certainly not. Just find this an interesting topic.

[MissU28]

Can you provide a link that he committed perjury?

And yes, I'm wearing my VT glasses. VT's favorite son (who basically is the main reason VT is in the ACC right now instead of slowly dying in the Big East with all due respect to Beamer) is essentially public enemy #1 because he killed a few dogs.

What Vick did for my alma mater was priceless. I'm not going to hate the man because PETA told me to.

Even with all objectivity aside, it's not difficult to put Vick's case in perspective here. He killed a few dogs. In the timeless words of Brian Mitchell, "whoop de damn do."

Tortured and killed A LOT of dogs and was directly responsible for many more.

Ran an interstate gambling ring.

But who cares? He can run really fast and gave a ton of money to VT - he can do whatever he wants.

You're view is pretty disgraceful and thankfully I know plenty of VT students and Alum that are ashamed of what the guy did.

"Whoop de damn do." :doh:

Nice response, JMU. To be seriously blinded by "what Vick did for my alma mater" is pathetic.

So nobody in this thread could fathom watching a dog fight?

I definitely wouldn't. No way in hell.

i like my dog more than most of the people i know. i like dogs in general more than most of the people i talk to on a daily basis.

I agree with this

Organzing a criminal enterprise that crosses into multiple states for the purpose of torturing animals and gambling is a bigger crime in my opinion than DUI Manslaughter. Do you think a drunk 20 year old is a bigger criminal than a member of an organized crime syndicate? I don't.

Certainly the effect of the drunk driving incident in question are more heart breaking. A family lost it's father/son/husband. That's hard to take and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

That is not to say however that an accident we view as criminal because of the great amount of negligence and irresponsibilty existing at the root of it makes one as big a threat to society as someone willing to fund and organize a criminal enterprise. Organized crime often encompasses a great deal more than one crime and it takes a serious disregard for the law and society in general to go to such an extreme step as setting up an outfit that exists soley to break the law for personal gain. That is what Vick did. He didn't just fight his dog (which IMO is pretty damn bad in it's own right). He set up and financed a dog fighting ring that crossed state lines for the purpose of gambling on fights. He even purchased the property and customized it to make for a suitable venue. This is no small thing. It is not something he did by accident after pounding one too many at the bar and lacking the mental strength or maturity to call a cab. He planned it and carefully concealed evidence.

Vick is by far the bigger criminal.

Excellent. You have all taken the words out of my mouth.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Nice response, JMU. To be seriously blinded by "what Vick did for my alma mater" is pathetic.

The Vick family literally can do no wrong in his eyes, he'll defend just about everything they do or have done because of their last name.

Vick made VT football what it is, then managed to drag Virginia Tech's name through the mud again and again.