Neverending Arguments

[Thinking Skins]

I used to hate the Tailgate because I saw it as a place where people only got into those neverending arguments about Democarat vs Republican (vs other), Religion vs Science, Athiest or not, etc.

But just as I'm realizing that there's cool conversation going on there, the Stadium has become a place where we can't talk about the Redskins, everything comes down to "true fan or not", "no football knowledge", "JC haters vs homers", "Blache is stupid for playing Orakpo at LB", etc.

And its not the extremes that surprises me. Its the persistence of those who promote those views (a small but loud segment of the ES population) and make it almost impossible to talk about anything other than these neverending arguments.

We get it - you hate JC; you hate the way he plays; you hate that he's not smart; you hate that he's not a true leader you probably hate everything about him....but I just wish we could just talk more about the offense without having to result to these neverending argumetns.

I mean, can't some of you just agree to disagree and not subject the rest of us to the same repetitive arguments? The same points repeated over and over again. What I'm gonna start doing with these arguments is just posting links to where this exact same argument was had in the past, sometimes by the same people in the past few days and they're just repeating the same points.

And they ruin a good thread about Zorn commenting on the offense and make it about whether Campbell sucks or not. I mean, if Extremeskins is a party you're the people I'm avoiding at all costs cause I know you're just a killjoy.

And yes, I know I realize the irony in my engaging in a neverending argument about neverending arguments, but one of my favorite stress relieving sites is just starting to stress me out too much. I just want to get back to good, fun, informative football talk again.

[Outlaw Torn]

I agree with you man. But it seems like the whole off season is gonna be like that so you might as well just try to get used to it. I like your idea of linking post though maybe people will realize how much of a broken record they are.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

The only way you'll get that TS is to agree a pact on both sides.

It's all well and good criticising the same, tired anti-Campbell arguments that end up hijacking most any offensive thread, but by the same token as you or whom ever not wanting to hear them, others are tired of the same old pro-Campbell arguments that are put forward within those threads, often containing some attack along the lines of the "hater" b/s, which you yourself alluded to here.

No question this **** needs to stop, it's been done ad nauseam all ways; but you can't have it one way, and not the other. If your gona' quit the endless, tedious arguments, everyone needs to agree to quit any QB talk at the very least until we actually take to the field again.

Hail.

[BigMike619]

this is the worst thread ever!!

you are OBVIOUSLY not a real fan!!

great job on the thread and I gave it 5 stars..

[Morneblade]

I'm sick and tired of it too. Some people have gone WAY over the edge with it, it seems it is all they are capable of at this point, no matter what the actual post was about.

Funny you mention Orakpo at LB, there is actually a really good thread on it, without all the garbage, just X's and O's and philosophies. And lots of screen caps and diagrams. Actually very informative stuff in there

[TK]

Speaking of pointing out a broken record.

Re: The Merged x111 Adventures Of The Fashion Police Weekly/Uniform Thread

And I'm not referring to just the whole uniform thread thing either.

[Soup]

But that's the reason I joined ES. I enjoy it all and hope it never changes, it wouldn't be ES if all that changed. You can really see the whole spectrum on one topic. I can write a biography about colt using ES alone.

[Thinking Skins]

No question this **** needs to stop, it's been done ad nauseam all ways; but you can't have it one way, and not the other. If your gona' quit the endless, tedious arguments, everyone needs to agree to quit any QB talk at the very least until we actually take to the field again.

Its like any other topic. Some people like it, some dislike it. But I'm under the assumption that mature adults can see for themselves that its the same old argument. I'd think that a part of the respect that we expect from one another is that we can disagree without turning every simple disagreement into a 20-40 post argument.

I really don't care about how people feel about the person they're arguing with, but it pisses me off as a person reading the thread, and I'm sure it pisses off others who want to actually want to contribute to the thread, like say, the thread starters.

[BuryYourDuke]

Don't you see that by only really attacking "JC haters" you are just as guilty???

[HawaiianTime]

It's starting to stress you out because you are taking things too personal. I know it is impossible to truly separate all of our feelings, but somethings just have to be taken with a grain of salt because people can use this forum to talk different from how they would talk in person, "Safety Behind a Keyboard". The arguments about QB will always be there because it is a central position that half of the game revolves around. I believe part of the problem is that many posters are coming from two very different points of view. I think a fundamental question that needs to be asked is "Are the Redskins a team that needs a Game Manager or a Game Leader in the QB position?" Once this has been determined, half the arguments go away because the needs for a QB are different for each type of QB.

All to often posters, including myself, will post about characteristics they would like to see Campbell exhibit, but fail to realize that these are unrealistic when considering the two basic types of QB we can view the position from. Campbell is comfortable as a Game Manager and the 1st half of 2008 was an indication of it. With the running game hitting on all cylinders, he posted 8 games of interception free passing, which I hope we all can agree is quite incredible for any QB. But at the same time the argument goes the other direction as well.

Many times posters try to sell the idea that Campbell is a Game Leader, and that is contrary to the fact when looking at the 2nd half of 2008. When the running game faltered, Campbell became more and more uncomfortable when asked to carry the game on his shoulders and win the game. Note the drop off in TDs and the increase in interceptions. I believe this is where many of the arguments stem from.

I believe Campbell is a Game Manager that can at times step his game up to be able to carry the team for a little while. He seems to be entirely comfortable with that, note the flashes of greatness. But as of yet, he does not have the consistency to be a Game Leader, and I don't know if he every will. Only time and Campbell can show us that. This will also be answered by the team and how they progress and/or stay healthy. As the FO and the HC draft will dictate which type of QB the Skins will need. That will also go for the health of this team. A healthy O-Line and a Healthy Portis will help create an environment suitable for a Game Manager. Either the O-Line or Portis wears out, and the need for a Game Leader becomes more apparent. Another factor is how the defense responds to our offense. If they consistently stack the box and are able to shut down the run, the more dependent we will become on a Game Leader to take over and lead the attack via the air.

I know there are more factors that go with these statements, but there is only so much I want to write at the moment. Campbell is an efficient Game Manager, and the Skins did well in the 1st 8 games, now whether or not we can go all 16+ with the O-Line healthy, the RBs healthy, and the opposing defense give adequate respect to the passing game, will decide if we have a winning season and make it into the playoffs.

I will agree with people all day long that Campbell is a Game Manager. It's a question of whether he makes the decision and steps his game up to be a Game Leader, that I am waiting to see. A Game Manager is needed if our team hits on all cylinders for the majority of the season. Campbell will do well and be very comfortable. A Game Leader is needed for all other occasions that call for something more than a Game Manager in the majority of the games. If we can agree on the Game Manager and Game Leader aspects of a QB, a lot fewer arguments will occur.

HTTR

[Morneblade]

It's starting to stress you out because you are taking things too personal. I know it is impossible to truly separate all of our feelings, but somethings just have to be taken with a grain of salt because people can use this forum to talk different from how they would talk in person, "Safety Behind a Keyboard". The arguments about QB will always be there because it is a central position that half of the game revolves around. I believe part of the problem is that many posters are coming from two very different points of view. I think a fundamental question that needs to be asked is "Are the Redskins a team that needs a Game Manager or a Game Leader in the QB position?" Once this has been determined, half the arguments go away because the needs for a QB are different for each type of QB.

All to often posters, including myself, will post about characteristics they would like to see Campbell exhibit, but fail to realize that these are unrealistic when considering the two basic types of QB we can view the position from. Campbell is comfortable as a Game Manager and the 1st half of 2008 was an indication of it. With the running game hitting on all cylinders, he posted 8 games of interception free passing, which I hope we all can agree is quite incredible for any QB. But at the same time the argument goes the other direction as well.

Many times posters try to sell the idea that Campbell is a Game Leader, and that is contrary to the fact when looking at the 2nd half of 2008. When the running game faltered, Campbell became more and more uncomfortable when asked to carry the game on his shoulders and win the game. Note the drop off in TDs and the increase in interceptions. I believe this is where many of the arguments stem from.

I believe Campbell is a Game Manager that can at times step his game up to be able to carry the team for a little while. He seems to be entirely comfortable with that, note the flashes of greatness. But as of yet, he does not have the consistency to be a Game Leader, and I don't know if he every will. Only time and Campbell can show us that. This will also be answered by the team and how they progress and/or stay healthy. As the FO and the HC draft will dictate which type of QB the Skins will need. That will also go for the health of this team. A healthy O-Line and a Healthy Portis will help create an environment suitable for a Game Manager. Either the O-Line or Portis wears out, and the need for a Game Leader becomes more apparent. Another factor is how the defense responds to our offense. If they consistently stack the box and are able to shut down the run, the more dependent we will become on a Game Leader to take over and lead the attack via the air.

I know there are more factors that go with these statements, but there is only so much I want to write at the moment. Campbell is an efficient Game Manager, and the Skins did well in the 1st 8 games, now whether or not we can go all 16+ with the O-Line healthy, the RBs healthy, and the opposing defense give adequate respect to the passing game, will decide if we have a winning season and make it into the playoffs.

I will agree with people all day long that Campbell is a Game Manager. It's a question of whether he makes the decision and steps his game up to be a Game Leader, that I am waiting to see. A Game Manager is needed if our team hits on all cylinders for the majority of the season. Campbell will do well and be very comfortable. A Game Leader is needed for all other occasions that call for something more than a Game Manager in the majority of the games. If we can agree on the Game Manager and Game Leader aspects of a QB, a lot fewer arguments will occur.

HTTR

And here we go again.

[Thinking Skins]

Don't you see that by only really attacking "JC haters" you are just as guilty???

That was just an example, but the same holds for the JC lovers and really anybody who derails a discussion into a pitter for patter thing. I mean, it takes two to tango in these things. If it was just one sided, then I think it would end a lot sooner.

[elkabong82]

It wasn't a problem when we were 6-2 last season. This place was pretty quiet. The usual suspects didn't show up, or at least weren't as vocal as they are now, until we started losing.

[HawaiianTime]

And here we go again.

Where did I go wrong? Did I say anything to bash Campbell, to disrespect him, or anything that the OP wrote? Did I get defensive in anyway? No. I approached this from a contemplative, non-argumentative point of view. So, why are you getting all hot under the collar? Maybe read the entire post instead of keying off of my name first.

[LD0506]

Ok, declare a truce. Everyone has pretty much declared their position on JC et al. and the only real way to resolve any of it is to see how the O runs once the season begins.

In three months.

Three long months

Three LONG desperately football-deprived months............

So whatcha wanna talk about now?

[darrelgreenie]

I think many fans assume that they have correctly pin-pointed a singular reason for a specific event that occurs during a football game.

But in football there are so many factors at play in every play let alone during the course of a game or a season.

I think some fans see a play and immediately think they understand what happened.

And they progress to build their arguements from knee jerk reactions.

In essence they begin with a false assumption.

If you begin your argument with a false assumption you can never be right.

I also think that some people on this board don't understand what they see and overestimate their own football knowledge.

They make their assumptions based on feelings and won't delve any deeper to substantiate them.

And disregard some of the most basic football tenets as excuses when it suits their view.

But the facts speak for themselves.

Also when it comes to JC in particular I think a major part of the argument is matter of form vs function or style vs substance.

I think some of the JC detractors don't like his style.

You can't argue style you either like it or you don't.

Some football fans can appreciate a QB like Brad Johnson some don't.

[Morneblade]

Where did I go wrong? Did I say anything to bash Campbell, to disrespect him, or anything that the OP wrote? Did I get defensive in anyway? No. I approached this from a contemplative, non-argumentative point of view. So, why are you getting all hot under the collar? Maybe read the entire post instead of keying off of my name first.

I read it. This is one of those topcis that has been literally beaten to death. Which was what the OP was talking about. And then you bring it here.

Where did you go wrong?:doh: You bothered to post it here. It would be like me posting about Blache's scheme here. It's exactly the kind of thing that is a Neverending argument, and one that alot of people are tired of showing up in threads that are not specifically about it. But you couldnt resist, could you?

[Morneblade]

Ok, declare a truce. Everyone has pretty much declared their position on JC et al. and the only real way to resolve any of it is to see how the O runs once the season begins.

In three months.

Three long months

Three LONG desperately football-deprived months............

So whatcha wanna talk about now?

Lots of things.

1. O-line. Will it be decent or will it be bad and injury prone again?

2. Will Kelly and/Thomas step up this year?

3. Who will our kicker be?

4. How will Zorn be as a HC now that he and his coaches have a full year in the system?

5. Who will be the #5 WR?

6. Do we keep a RB other than Portis, Betts and Rock?

7. How will Daneils respond from surgery last year?

8. Will Rocky have a breakout season?

9. Can someone beat out ARE in the return game?

I could go on, but there are alot of thing we COULD talk about as well.

[HawaiianTime]

I read it. This is one of those topcis that has been literally beaten to death. Which was what the OP was talking about. And then you bring it here.

Where did you go wrong?:doh: You bothered to post it here. It would be like me posting about Blache's scheme here. It's exactly the kind of thing that is a Neverending argument, and one that alot of people are tired of showing up in threads that are not specifically about it. But you couldnt resist, could you?

Alright, I went back and re-read the OP, my post and your post. Maybe I'm missing something, and it must be your perspective because I'm essentially agreeing with the OP, and pointing out where many of the arguments as far as JC seem to stem from. I don't read many arguments about whether JC is a Game Manager or Game Leader, though I see arguments that go back and forth because of the the 2 different types. Then the posters start to take things personally and the entire argument breaks down into a virtual fistacuff of words. I'm interested to read if I am the only one that thinks that a major reason why the disagreement is because of this observation. Never the two sides seem to meet and frustration sets in between the different posters. I often wondered why others did not see it the way I did, and after reading the OP, I had an epiphany that maybe this is why there is such an argument. I have seen it posted every now an then about the Game Manager thing only to be lost in a written scuffle about whether he sucks or not. Just my observations.

[LD0506]

Lots of things.

1. O-line. Will it be decent or will it be bad and injury prone again?

2. Will Kelly and/Thomas step up this year?

3. Who will our kicker be?

4. How will Zorn be as a HC now that he and his coaches have a full year in the system?

5. Who will be the #5 WR?

6. Do we keep a RB other than Portis, Betts and Rock?

7. How will Daneils respond from surgery last year?

8. Will Rocky have a breakout season?

9. Can someone beat out ARE in the return game?

I could go on, but there are alot of thing we COULD talk about as well.

You mean genuine conversation about FOOTBALL!!?! My mind is all a'boggled :hysterical:

[Morneblade]

Alright, I went back and re-read the OP, my post and your post. Maybe I'm missing something, and it must be your perspective because I'm essentially agreeing with the OP, and pointing out where many of the arguments as far as JC seem to stem from. I don't read many arguments about whether JC is a Game Manager or Game Leader, though I see arguments that go back and forth because of the the 2 different types. Then the posters start to take things personally and the entire argument breaks down into a virtual fistacuff of words. I'm interested to read if I am the only one that thinks that a major reason why the disagreement is because of this observation. Never the two sides seem to meet and frustration sets in between the different posters. I often wondered why others did not see it the way I did, and after reading the OP, I had an epiphany that maybe this is why there is such an argument. I have seen it posted every now an then about the Game Manager thing only to be lost in a written scuffle about whether he sucks or not. Just my observations.

Which would have been great, in a different thread. Part of it was ALSO about threads about the things other than JC (or another hot topic) getting hijacked. Lets not do that to this one.

[Morneblade]

You mean genuine conversation about FOOTBALL!!?! My mind is all a'boggled :hysterical:

Tell me about it! Offseaon is tough!

[flexxskins]

Where did I go wrong? Did I say anything to bash Campbell, to disrespect him, or anything that the OP wrote? Did I get defensive in anyway? No. I approached this from a contemplative, non-argumentative point of view. So, why are you getting all hot under the collar? Maybe read the entire post instead of keying off of my name first.

You didn't disrepect or bash anybody. But, the only one who seems to have gotten hot under the collar (judging from your quote above) is you.

By simply bringing up the subject of whether or not Campbell is a game mangager/leader or whatever your point was in your original quote, you were doing exactly what the OP was talking about...(taking your part in a never ending argument).

I could be wrong, but I believe that that is what Morneblade meant by his comment.

[HawaiianTime]

Which would have been great, in a different thread. Part of it was ALSO about threads about the things other than JC (or another hot topic) getting hijacked. Lets not do that to this one.

That's another one. With Orakpo, I wanted to wait and see what all the uproar was about him playing LB versus DE. The guy doesn't seem to care as long as he's given the opportunity to play. Also as I read more and more, the talk is to use his talents in such away that would give the defense more flexibility, which is always a plus. The only issue is similar with Terrell Suggs when it comes time for money and how the difference is salaries when it come to the different positions. See, this entire thread covers so many neverending arguments, that it can go in every direction.

[hogghead]

Thinking Skins, i feel what your trying to say but you have to understand your audience. Most of us here are way above and beyond any normal fan criteria. We are Extreme Skins Fans. Being an extreme fan, you will have extreme ideas and believes. Notice that I didnt include rational thinking. Some have it but most dont. Its cool to grade a QB off of feelings, I personally dont, but for some of us, thats all that we use. JC is a quality QB and that will show in time. We have made somewhat of an attempt of helping him with the subtle upgrades on the O-line. Some will acknowledge that point. The other factors like, quality wide recievers, learning another new system and especially play calling, seems to fall to the way side. If you brought the great Joe Montana in under the same situation, I doubt that he would make the type of change to make most on ES happy. You cant win with a wide variety of opinions even when you are right.

:saber:Thinking Skins, i feel what your trying to say but you have to understand your audience. Most of us here are way above and beyond any normal fan criteria. We are Extreme Skins Fans. Being an extreme fan, you will have extreme ideas and believes. Notice that I didnt include rational thinking. Some have it but most dont. Its cool to grade a QB off of feelings, I personally dont, but for some of us, thats all that we use. JC is a quality QB and that will show in time. We have made somewhat of an attempt of helping him with the subtle upgrades on the O-line. Some will acknowledge that point. The other factors like, quality wide recievers, learning another new system and especially play calling, seems to fall to the way side. If you brought the great Joe Montana in under the same situation, I doubt that he would make the type of change to make most on ES happy. You cant win with a wide variety of opinions even when you are right.

:saber::saber::saber:

Hail