Thinking Skins Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 http://thoughtsparadigm.blogspot.com/2009/05/atheist-christian.html I was in the shower this morning thinking about my religious standing. I grew up in a Christian church and by my own definition I'd openly call myself a Christian. I mean, it fits the I guess generic definition - I grew up in a Christian church, was baptized, believe that Christ died and was resurrected. But the thing about it is that I don't think those things are what make me a Christian. In fact, whenever I get into talks with some of my more religious friends, I'm often criticized and assumed to not be a Christian. I'm told that Christians don't question the authenticity of the Bible, nor the motives of its authors. I'm also told that Christians don't have an open question in their mind about what makes Christiainity better than other religions. I haven't had one of these shouting matches in a while. I went to church a few weeks ago to see a controversial Christian minister, and was actually surprised that the message that day was on Christian tolerance towards other religions. I guess it shouldn't be too surprising of a message dealing with the world we're living in right now. But I normally don't hear such words from my Christian ministers. So getting back to my shower, I was wondering what I should call myself. I don't think I'll stick with Atheist Christian, but it is a nice play on words. I mean, my belief in what makes on Christian has nothing to do with what one believes. So one could be the largest spouting Atheist in the world and still fall into the definition of Christianity in my books. I kinda base my stuff on John 13:34, "I give you a new commandment: love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another. By this all people will know you are My disciples, if you have love for one another". There's nothing in this verse about believing in him in particular. He says to be a disciple of his, you must keep his commandment. So even an Atheist like Bill Maher who is known to speak of how niave it is to be religious, I would still call him a Christian if he is in fact keeping this commandment. This has gotten me into a few heated discussions because many close friends have called me some not so kind names. Sometimes its kinda hard to actually discuss some of these principles because so many seem to already have their minds made up about right and wrong, morality, and the afterlife - particularly the fundamental Christians. So trying to have conversations about these things seems to always resort back to a few of their favorite verses and basic principles. I've got no beef with that, but I'm always looking for people that I can have this conversation with. And more often than not, those happen to be with my "Atheist Christian" friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I think you need a new name. the one you have now is too contradictory and will just cause people to bristle up and take defense. and thats a mighty long shower there man...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 You need to meet my cousin. He is a Christian, but he thinks very similar to the way you think. As far as your question, I can't answer that. You make a lot of sense, like you always do , both something is missing. Since I don't know what it is I won't say nothing because I could be wrong.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 the book of proverbs is a great book and basically tells you about how to treat each other with love and respect. I feel like you have quoted a book from God and particularly a quote from a follower of Jesus and are trying to say that it doesnt mention him. Every breath that John took, every action he did, every word he spoke was in the name of Jesus Christ and nothing else. So if you liked what he had to say I think thats awesome but know that it came from the place of a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted May 30, 2009 Author Share Posted May 30, 2009 I think you need a new name. the one you have now is too contradictory and will just cause people to bristle up and take defense. Yeah, I just thought it was a nice play on words. The way I feel about people bristling up though, it seems that no matter how I discuss it they'll bristle up. Part of me likes this name because at least they know from the get-go that I'm not gonna talk about fundamental stuff. But on the contrary, it may turn off some Christians who are actually interested in discussions. and thats a mighty long shower there man...lol After all the papers I've been writing this week, I needed a long shower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Yeah, I just thought it was a nice play on words. The way I feel about people bristling up though, it seems that no matter how I discuss it they'll bristle up. Part of me likes this name because at least they know from the get-go that I'm not gonna talk about fundamental stuff. But on the contrary, it may turn off some Christians who are actually interested in discussions. I think spiritually you share a lot of the same values of a Christian but you dont share the key component. That in no way makes you a bad person but it makes you not a Christian. Muslims have GREAT fundamentals and some that I absolutely love. Just the word Islam means to submit and I love that but I dont accept they dont belive in Christ so I am not a Muslim. And so on. I typically like these discussions for the first few pages but they always turn bad. You have a good head on your shoulders and it sounds like you have great morals inside. I wouldnt even attempt to slam you because you dont believe what I do. I believe what I believe but if what you believe makes you a good person then I can do nothing but be happy for it. I am not God and I am not your judge either. After all the papers I've been writing this week, I needed a long shower. TMI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted May 30, 2009 Author Share Posted May 30, 2009 the book of proverbs is a great book and basically tells you about how to treat each other with love and respect. Yeah, Proverbs is one of my favorites. I read it back in 2004 when I was almost to the level of a Jehovah's witness - to the point where I was trying to convert everybody who didn't believe. I loved Proverbs and Romans probably the most. But there are some ambiguous things (even in those books) that either I don't understand well enough, or I don't agree with. And the search for explanation/understanding is kinda what led me to this point. I feel like you have quoted a book from God and particularly a quote from a follower of Jesus and are trying to say that it doesnt mention him. Every breath that John took, every action he did, every word he spoke was in the name of Jesus Christ and nothing else. So if you liked what he had to say I think thats awesome but know that it came from the place of a Christian. Yeah, and there are other verses that disagree with this. I started to talk about it in this blog, but it woulda made it too long. There are a lot of verses that fall on both sides of it. I mean, Jesus talks about being a Disciple and a follower of Christ, but never explicitly a Christian. He gives the Great Commission, but is that a commandment or a requirement for Christianity? If so, then I'm not a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I think spiritually you share a lot of the same values of a Christian but you dont share the key component. That in no way makes you a bad person but it makes you not a Christian. Muslims have GREAT fundamentals and some that I absolutely love. Just the word Islam means to submit and I love that but I dont accept they dont belive in Christ so I am not a Muslim. And so on. I typically like these discussions for the first few pages but they always turn bad. You have a good head on your shoulders and it sounds like you have great morals inside. I wouldnt even attempt to slam you because you dont believe what I do. I believe what I believe but if what you believe makes you a good person then I can do nothing but be happy for it. I am not God and I am not your judge either. We believe in Christ, just not his divinity Which is probably the fundamental difference. You cannot be a Christian without believing in the trinity and divinity of Christ You cannot be a Muslim without believing in the oneness of God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted May 30, 2009 Author Share Posted May 30, 2009 I typically like these discussions for the first few pages but they always turn bad. Yeah, normally I don't even engage in them. But considering that most of my posts in tailgate don't make it past 20 or so replies, I figured this one wouldn't be much different. Although I do realize this is a hot-button issue that some may respond to on pure emotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 We believe in Christ, just not his divinity Which is probably the fundamental difference. You cannot be a Christian without believing in the trinity and divinity of Christ You cannot be a Muslim without believing in the oneness of God I know, my brother is a muslim. and thats why Im not one, I believe in Christ to be the son of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Wow, I think of totally different things in the shower. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twist Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 http://thoughtsparadigm.blogspot.com/2009/05/atheist-christian.htmlI was in the shower this morning thinking about my religious standing. I grew up in a Christian church and by my own definition I'd openly call myself a Christian. I mean, it fits the I guess generic definition - I grew up in a Christian church, was baptized, believe that Christ died and was resurrected. But the thing about it is that I don't think those things are what make me a Christian. In fact, whenever I get into talks with some of my more religious friends, I'm often criticized and assumed to not be a Christian. I'm told that Christians don't question the authenticity of the Bible, nor the motives of its authors. I'm also told that Christians don't have an open question in their mind about what makes Christiainity better than other religions. I am agnostic. You are not an atheist in any way, just a very liberal Christian. You are not an atheist if you think Jesus is both god/man and rose from the dead. That's pretty much the sticking point of Christian belief, and what separates you from me. I'm glad that some Christians actually read the rest parts of the Bible where it makes a lot of good points about how to be decent towards one another. Atheism would be a misnomer because it denotes the lack of belief in any Gods, or the positive denial of the existence of God. Your problem is that the simple definition of Christian encompasses a wide variety of beliefs with a few fundamentals, if someone calls you unchristian it really means you don't measure up to THEIR interpretation of Christianity, and is essentially a way of saying "Everything I believe is true and if you deviate from it your not worthy". I haven't had one of these shouting matches in a while. I went to church a few weeks ago to see a controversial Christian minister, and was actually surprised that the message that day was on Christian tolerance towards other religions. I guess it shouldn't be too surprising of a message dealing with the world we're living in right now. But I normally don't hear such words from my Christian ministers. So getting back to my shower, I was wondering what I should call myself. I don't think I'll stick with Atheist Christian, but it is a nice play on words. I mean, my belief in what makes on Christian has nothing to do with what one believes. So one could be the largest spouting Atheist in the world and still fall into the definition of Christianity in my books. You can be an entirely moral and loving person and not believe in any Gods, but the problem is that you seem to believe in some so I don't think your title works. I kinda base my stuff on John 13:34, "I give you a new commandment: love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another. By this all people will know you are My disciples, if you have love for one another". There's nothing in this verse about believing in him in particular. He says to be a disciple of his, you must keep his commandment. So even an Atheist like Bill Maher who is known to speak of how niave it is to be religious, I would still call him a Christian if he is in fact keeping this commandment. Being good to others and loving them is not distinctly a Christian ideal, it is an ideal that Christianity supposedly shares with a great many other ideologies. Where this get's interesting, and where I think your going with this, is where people who are not Christians (by belief) but are very loving and good to others. Are they following Jesus's ideals? Obviously they share some of the ideals whether they believe in the metaphysics described in the Bible or no. This has gotten me into a few heated discussions because many close friends have called me some not so kind names. Sometimes its kinda hard to actually discuss some of these principles because so many seem to already have their minds made up about right and wrong, morality, and the afterlife - particularly the fundamental Christians. So trying to have conversations about these things seems to always resort back to a few of their favorite verses and basic principles. I've got no beef with that, but I'm always looking for people that I can have this conversation with. And more often than not, those happen to be with my "Atheist Christian" friends. I suggest you never yell at anyone when arguing. Biologically anger leads to defensiveness, and defensiveness is not conducive to either side hearing what the other has to say. All an argument like the one described will do is force the opposing sides deeper into their positions through emotion. If you really want people to listen to you, you should speak softly, with measured tones and reasonable well thought out arguments. Read the new testament if you want an example of this (I think Jesus loses his cool on one occasion according to the authors). You are going to have to accept that when you vastly differ from others you are going to cause conflict, but not all conflict needs to become a shouting match. If you are patient and calm with other people, you will find that even those that are really and truly opposed to your positions will still like you, and may even enjoy differing from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I dont accept they dont belive in Christ so I am not a Muslim. Uhh, they most definitely believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet of God and that he will be there at the end of times. Where did you hear they don't believe in Christ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I know, my brother is a muslim. and thats why Im not one, I believe in Christ to be the son of God. What type of Muslim is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Wow, I think of totally different things in the shower.~Bang Yah, I'm usually making fart noises with my hands while I'm waiting for my conditioner to work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 There are people here that will jump on this, and I'm not going to argue (because it is something I go back and forth on anyway for myself), but there is an indication in the Bible that Jesus was sent for the Jews. He then later says go out and spread the good word to all the nations (or something to that extant), but then even Paul makes comments about "us" and "them" (us being people that except Jesus as the son of God and them being everybody else) that could indicate that one set of rules apply for the "us", but not necessarily to "them". If you think of the Bible in that context (it is a forumlation of a method for those that accept the God of the Jews to gain salvation), then it takes an interesting different dimension. As I've said, I'm sure some that read this will disagree and quote passages to show that I'm wrong (e.g. "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him.""), and I'm not going to argue, but it is something I've puzzled over in the past. In general, I don't think you sound so much different than many other Christians I know. I always have questions that I puzzle over, and the best I can say is there is clearly information we are lacking (I firmly believe there was more to the crucifiction then we know. It really isn't that great of a scrafice. Buddist monks have lit themselves on fire for no "sin" of theirs, and in the process, they actually end their live. People have jobs that is to take bullets for other people. Jesus (should have) known the result and known no permanant damage would result. Why would an eternal being be worried about such a transient amount of time (the whole take this cup from me if possible, but let your will be done, and not mine)? I've come to the conclusion there was more to the crucification/ressurection then what we know (Don't even get me started on the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the mount). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Uhh, they most definitely believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet of God and that he will be there at the end of times. Where did you hear they don't believe in Christ? I followed that up with "son of God". i didnt mean not believe in him entirely. we all know he isnt santa claus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOF44 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I think I'm a Carnivorous Vegan!!! :cool2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 did you write this article thinking skins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 What type of Muslim is he? Sunni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Sunni Too bad, I was hoping for Nation of Islam. Now THAT would have been interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVUforREDSKINS Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I like this summary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Too bad, I was hoping for Nation of Islam. Now THAT would have been interesting. man, DC would have just imploded. between my father and myself that wouldnt have happened. but honestly if being a muslim makes my brother a better man then I support Islam. His wife and I have had many conversations about their beliefs and I have watched him go thru Ramadan, seen his wife pray and its pretty cool. I have to be a jerk here though; I went back during Ramadan and hadn't had pulled pork in forever. Whenever I go to Southern MD (Upper Marlboro) I stop by this little shack and get a big ass plate. I made him pull over (yeah, he was driving) so I could get some. He was really cool about it but I felt like a jerk.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81artmonk Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Atheiest means you don't believe in God. I can't judge your heart, but if you question much about christianity, rather than research it and come to the truth biblically, than you have some issues to iron out about what you really believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I followed that up with "son of God". i didnt mean not believe in him entirely. we all know he isnt santa claus I see. I think most people don't understand that they do believe he is a prophet. You are not one of those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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