An Atheist Christian?

[RabidFan]

Wow, I think of totally different things in the shower.

~Bang

Mickalino is blushing.

[Thinking Skins]

I feel like this whole concept of "ask the Lord to forgive your sins" is just a cop-out for Christians. Its much more difficult to actually not commit the sin in the first place. Then we get into concepts like "original sin" and inevitable sin and even the actual definition of sin.

In the book of John I, there's a verse that says "God is Love". If we accept this, then we can interpret Jesus's commandments (the two most important commandments) as 1. Love Love, 2. Love your neighbor.

What does it mean to Love Love? I feel like that question is an ongoing search for what it means to love. Things today which we see as barbaric (slavery) were once thought as the standard way of life. But as we grow and learn, we see that these things are not done in love.

In addition to these commandments, Jesus says that he gave each of us a "Holy Spirit", and he makes a statement that the only one who is truly cursed is the one who goes against his holy spirt. When I was a kid, I questioned what this meant. I questioned if it only applied to Christians, or everybody. And I wondered what it meant to go against the Holy Spirit.

The way I see it now (after speaking to many pastors and reading about a dozen books on the subject), I don't see the difference between our Holy Spirit and our conscience - just guiding us towards the right decision. Its not the same for everybody and the more we learn the more our conscience changes. Thats why I'm much more willing to listen to my conscience than to what was written in a book over 1500 years ago.

[Oldskool]

I feel like this whole concept of "ask the Lord to forgive your sins" is just a cop-out for Christians. Its much more difficult to actually not commit the sin in the first place. Then we get into concepts like "original sin" and inevitable sin and even the actual definition of sin.

The problem here lies that man is an imperfect creature and that we are all sinners and will sin. Forgiveness from sin only comes through the accepting Messiah and his sacrifice as an atonement for your sins.

This is not to say that G-D is ok with you sinning. "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is the phrase that is fitting here. Sins will still be acknowledged on the day of judgment, how so was never fully revealed.

[Dallsux]

What makes you think we are the only planet God created life on?

Show me another WITH life on it & I'll retract my statement.

[PeterMP]

Show me another WITH life on it & I'll retract my statement.

So you have no reason other than the fact that we don't know there is?

You said you KNOW. I'm asking how do you know. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm curious what fuels your belief that you KNOW.

[Thinking Skins]

The problem here lies that man is an imperfect creature and that we are all sinners and will sin. Forgiveness from sin only comes through the accepting Messiah and his sacrifice as an atonement for your sins.

This is not to say that G-D is ok with you sinning. "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is the phrase that is fitting here. Sins will still be acknowledged on the day of judgment, how so was never fully revealed.

Yeah, but still, if we accept that everybody sins, then we're all equal.

So lets suppose we're keeping track of two individuals call them Adam the Athiest and Chuck the Christian, who both were born and died on the same days (thus at the same age) in the same locations (relatively speaking). Say at the end of their lives Adam as about 2000 sins compared to Chuck's 2 million. Now since Chuck's a Christian, his 2 million sins are no problem. I mean, God'll do something, but he's getting forgiven. Adam on the other hand, while he attempted to live right, didn't do that one thing and so Adam must pay the ultimate punishment. That just doesn't seem like justice to me.

Lets just compare it to the court of law. Say there's a speed limit of 65. Adam doesn't care about the speed limit, but stays at 60 anyway because he gets better miles per gallon. Chuck, well he was in a rush to get to work so he said he'd just go 75 (its just a nudge over, right?). In my book, the just thing to do would be to punish Chuck and let Adam go free. But it seems that this "just" God is willing to punish Adam for not believing in the speed limit, and let Chuck go free even though Chuck knew about it and went against it.

That sounds more like a dictator (and religious profiling) than a just God. And so since part of my Christian belief is that God is just, I find it impossible to believe that he would punish an Atheist simply for not believing.

[Bang]

Where you see arrogance, I see humility. I think it is humbling to look at the rest of the universe & know that we are the only planet with life. That of all the life on this Earth, we humans were the ones molded by God to be "in His image." You see that as arrogance, I see it as humbling.

My own achievements have gotten me nowhere. What good is it to be just a good person? What good is it to be just a good parent? Being a good parent means little to nothing if your kid grows up & becomes a murderer anyway. There are a lot of bad people in this world that had "good" parents. What if my point is to enjoy life being a murderer & still being a good parent & kind to my friends & neighbors? If I don't have to be accountable to someone higher then me (other then the law), then I can pretty much do whatever I want, right? What is to stop me from being that person if there is no OTHER point?

No, what I see as arrogance is that there MUST be a point to it all, or it's a total waste. That there cannot possibly be existence without a larger purpose.

What if the only point is that life exists, and what we make of it is the point?

~Bang

[Thinking Skins]

Another question on this whole "eternal life" thing is that if Christians believe in Hell, and we have a certain subset of the population who are sent to hell, aren't they sent there for eternity? And if so, isn't that an eternal life in Hell?

And if there is eternal life in Hell, how painful can it be? Its not gonna kill you so eventually I'd think you get to the point of just repetition.

[Oldskool]

Yeah, but still, if we accept that everybody sins, then we're all equal.

So lets suppose we're keeping track of two individuals call them Adam the Athiest and Chuck the Christian, who both were born and died on the same days (thus at the same age) in the same locations (relatively speaking). Say at the end of their lives Adam as about 2000 sins compared to Chuck's 2 million. Now since Chuck's a Christian, his 2 million sins are no problem. I mean, God'll do something, but he's getting forgiven. Adam on the other hand, while he attempted to live right, didn't do that one thing and so Adam must pay the ultimate punishment. That just doesn't seem like justice to me.

Lets just compare it to the court of law. Say there's a speed limit of 65. Adam doesn't care about the speed limit, but stays at 60 anyway because he gets better miles per gallon. Chuck, well he was in a rush to get to work so he said he'd just go 75 (its just a nudge over, right?). In my book, the just thing to do would be to punish Chuck and let Adam go free. But it seems that this "just" God is willing to punish Adam for not believing in the speed limit, and let Chuck go free even though Chuck knew about it and went against it.

That sounds more like a dictator (and religious profiling) than a just God. And so since part of my Christian belief is that God is just, I find it impossible to believe that he would punish an Atheist simply for not believing.

Well here's where I think you're off.

First and foremost, works don't mean jack without salvation first.

2 Timothy 1:9 says that salvation only comes through the messiah. James 2:24 further states that your salvation is not enough, that you need to perform works in this life that glorify G-D.

Therefore a person who claims salvation and yet commits horrible deeds in this existence is no better than the person that never accepts the gift in the first place.

[Dallsux]

The way I see it now (after speaking to many pastors and reading about a dozen books on the subject), I don't see the difference between our Holy Spirit and our conscience - just guiding us towards the right decision. Its not the same for everybody and the more we learn the more our conscience changes. Thats why I'm much more willing to listen to my conscience than to what was written in a book over 1500 years ago.

Actually, the start of the book was written over 5000 years ago...it was lost for about 700 years & then found again 1500 years ago...and has never been changed. However, man's opinion has & over the years innumerable books & writings have come out to exclaim that the Bible was wrong. So my question is, how is the Bible wrong & all these other books not? Were they not also written by men? Do they not have an agenda to guide people away from believing the Bible?

As far as the Holy Spirit goes, it is the 3rd personification of God. It is the "Spirit" of God, Jesus is the "Flesh" of God, & Jehovah, the Father, is the "Soul" or mind of God. When Genesis says "Let US make man in OUR image", I believe this is what He was talking about. Mind, body & spirit. Three parts acting in one accord.

So, in some senses, you are right. As long as God resides in you, the Holy Spirit helps guide our consciences, but more importantly, He guides our spirits. It is the Holy Spirit that will determine whether someone needs to be "witnessed" to & at what length. I know there comes a point when talking to someone where they shut off & stop listening. The Holy Spirit is not going to guide you to drive someone away & when they feel you are pushing too hard, they shut off. So, the Holy Spirit knows how much to say, what to say, & to whom.

There are also times when the Holy Spirit uses us to speak directly to God, the Father, to intercede for us & often speaking to God, will intercede for things we normally would not think to say. This is where "speaking in tongues" comes into play. IMO, this has been abused in the churches as some will try to speak in tongues to get attention from people in church. "Oh, look how pious he is." However, the Bible states that speaking in tongues should be done in private & IF done in public gatherings, should only be done if there is an interpreter nearby. I have heard many people "speaking in tongues" & often there is no interpretation to follow. This is no good, IMO. What good does it do anyone to hear the tongues, but not know what is being said? Other then to make the person doing so appear to know God, none.

As far as being forgiven being a cop-out...I can see where people try to use that, but the Bible covers that as well. In Hebrews, it says that anyone who continues to sin knowing they are doing so, so they can get away with it will not see the Kingdom of Heaven. You can't lie, cheat & steal from people on a regular basis, go to church on Sunday, & Monday, go right back to it as if you have a clean slate. There are consequences & if you are TRULY asking for forgiveness, then what you are asking forgiveness for is not something you return to. If you are TRULY asking for forgiveness, but continue to slip up at things that you are trying to change (ie. an addiction of some sorts), then I believe that God meets you where you are, but there still has to be an effort to change yourself. Simply going to church & asking for forgiveness for your sins doesn't cut it. Especially if you have no intention of changing your life. In that case, it IS a cop-out & whether we, as people, see thru that or not is irrelevant. God does & His opinion is the one that matters most.

[Vicious]

All those things you listed are good things to do and be, but that isn't what saves us in the end.

What end?

[Oldskool]

Another question on this whole "eternal life" thing is that if Christians believe in Hell, and we have a certain subset of the population who are sent to hell, aren't they sent there for eternity? And if so, isn't that an eternal life in Hell?

And if there is eternal life in Hell, how painful can it be? Its not gonna kill you so eventually I'd think you get to the point of just repetition.

Both are good questions with really no definitive answer.

You also have to remember that time is a concept that may or may not exist in other plains of reality separate from the one that we inhabit.

[Thinking Skins]

Actually, the start of the book was written over 5000 years ago...it was lost for about 700 years & then found again 1500 years ago...and has never been changed. However, man's opinion has & over the years innumerable books & writings have come out to exclaim that the Bible was wrong. So my question is, how is the Bible wrong & all these other books not? Were they not also written by men? Do they not have an agenda to guide people away from believing the Bible?

Thats the thing. I accept that these other books are written by men and are possibly flawed. But accepting this, we can discuss the strengths and weaknesses of Utilitarianism vs the Categorical Imperitave - both being philosophies written by men. But if the Bible says "homosexuality is wrong", then some say we should accept it BECAUSE the Bible says so, without any other logic. At least with some principles like killing and stealing we can see how other universal laws are broken and so its easy to accept laws against them, but there are things in the Bible that many disagree with today (like Slavery for example). I find it hard to believe that this book (any philosophical book) is without the possibility of flaw.

So, in some senses, you are right. As long as God resides in you, the Holy Spirit helps guide our consciences, but more importantly, He guides our spirits. It is the Holy Spirit that will determine whether someone needs to be "witnessed" to & at what length. I know there comes a point when talking to someone where they shut off & stop listening. The Holy Spirit is not going to guide you to drive someone away & when they feel you are pushing too hard, they shut off. So, the Holy Spirit knows how much to say, what to say, & to whom.

And I think this is what guides EVERYBODY, not just Christians. If you were to say it only guides Christians, then I'd say that non-Christians have something similar in their conscience. I feel like for some, the Holy Spirit is the thing that guides them to Christ (before they are actually a Christian), and for others it is what guides them away from Christianity (because for example, many see the corruption in religion) and their conscience is telling them not to become corrupt like that.

Some of my books have been pointing to Quakers, and I want to do some more reading on that because it seems that they have an interesting interpretation of Christianity.

[Dallsux]

No, what I see as arrogance is that there MUST be a point to it all, or it's a total waste. That there cannot possibly be existence without a larger purpose.

What if the only point is that life exists, and what we make of it is the point?

~Bang

Hmmm...interesting. Well, if you look at everything from plants to bugs to us human beings, it seems to me that everything in it's existence is here serve something else. Plants help each other grow & feed the animals, thus having a higher purpose then to just grow. Animals serve to help each other & to feed other animals, not just to live in their little existence & then...not. When something dies, a whole other community of animals & bugs is served by the higher purpose of that life gone.

Life as we know it is better when people around us help make it better. If we all just lived in our own existence & did nothing to serve others, which IMO, IS a higher purpose, then the world as we know it wouldn't exist. Things would be much, MUCH worse because everyone would live for their own selfish desires much more then we do now because there would be no "higher purpose" to serve each other. Just to live is simply the most selfish thing we could do because NOTHING in nature does it...so why should we?

I think it is arrogance to think that we are only here to live life as we see fit for ourselves without a higher purpose. Everything on Earth has a higher purpose then to serve itself. Even evolution, oddly enough, will agree with me on that.

[Dallsux]

So you have no reason other than the fact that we don't know there is?

You said you KNOW. I'm asking how do you know. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm curious what fuels your belief that you KNOW.

Fair enough. Let me rephrase. I STRONGLY BELIEVE that we are the only planet with life. We have yet to see proof that there is life anywhere else. We have not seen anything on other planets that would indicate that life exists elsewhere & there are no other planets or solar systems that we have found that even shows it could support life.

That being said, it is entirely possible, I suppose, that there is some planet light years away where life could possibly exist that we haven't discovered yet. It is my strong belief that we are the only planet with life.

[Thinking Skins]

Fair enough. Let me rephrase. I STRONGLY BELIEVE that we are the only planet with life. We have yet to see proof that there is life anywhere else. We have not seen anything on other planets that would indicate that life exists elsewhere & there are no other planets or solar systems that we have found that even shows it could support life.

That being said, it is entirely possible, I suppose, that there is some planet light years away where life could possibly exist that we haven't discovered yet. It is my strong belief that we are the only planet with life.

But part of this problem deals with our technology. Our telescopes can only detect planets of the size of Jupiter in other solar systems, but we're looking for something relatively the size of Earth. These planets the size of Jupiter (some) have shown the possibility of life, but we are unable to visit them right now. So a serious limitation to this question is our current technology.

[twist]

Precisely my point.

I remember getting into a discussion in the mens Bible study about the fate of Gandhi. It was almost universally accepted that Gandhi went to hell. At the time, I had grown interested in Gandhi because I had just read MLK's autobiography and saw how much impact Gandhi's writings had on his life. So I went and read some of Gandhi's works, and I was so surprised to see how much he based on the teachings of Jesus.

I've later discussed my opinion on Gandhi's fate and others have brought up some sides of his character I wouldn't necessarily agree with (how he treated his wife, his apparent racism towards Blacks early in his life, and a few other things) and if these things are the ultimate reason for him not getting into Heaven, then I can maybe understand that. I can understand these things being the reason for him not going to heaven more than I could understand him not going to heaven because he lived a life following Jesus's teachings on love (what Jesus called the most important commandment), but he didn't believe. In my opinion, that's not the doings of a "Just God".

Well, I have never found many great things in discussions of who is or isn't going to hell. Mainly I think the sort of theology that Christianity has is a means to coerce small children and all but the intellectually brave into belief. It obviously doesn’t make sense to leave Gandhi out who experienced a completely different faith and let a repentant (all be it loathsome) Christian in.

I just rejected the entire debate as non-sense a long time ago, because, I believe that if there really is a God, it likely has better judgment over the hearts and minds of humans than any human would ever have, if it indeed felt like judging them at all.

I think though that there may be non-express Christians who could accept Christ without knowing or explicitly saying so. Someone could take the teachings of Christ to heart without ever knowing what a Bible was, or never hearing the word Christ. They are basic principles if you boil off the entire doctrinal minutia.

[Dallsux]

Thats the thing. I accept that these other books are written by men and are possibly flawed. But accepting this, we can discuss the strengths and weaknesses of Utilitarianism vs the Categorical Imperitave - both being philosophies written by men. But if the Bible says "homosexuality is wrong", then some say we should accept it BECAUSE the Bible says so, without any other logic. At least with some principles like killing and stealing we can see how other universal laws are broken and so its easy to accept laws against them, but there are things in the Bible that many disagree with today (like Slavery for example). I find it hard to believe that this book (any philosophical book) is without the possibility of flaw.

Well, this is where your faith comes in. As I said earlier, Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It's hard for me to argue that the Bible is flawed. Yes, it was written by men, but God being perfect, I just can't see allowing the only book in the world that connects us directly to Him to have multiple flaws in it, as some would contest.

You'll have to point out to me where slavery is something that the Bible condones, because in all my years of reading & studying it, I've never seen that being condoned. Yes, slavery is in the Bible, more as a history then a guide to do so. The only thing I can think of where it talks about slavery being a good thing is being a slave to Christ. And really, it's misunderstood if it's taken in a bad light. Being a slave to Christ is a voluntary thing, I'm not chained to anything & I am free to live my life as I see fit. I just have a higher purpose then to live my life for myself. my slavery to Him is more about trying to lead people to Him (which I'll admit, I'm not very good at).

Also, try to understand that Christianity is not really a religion. It is designed to be a relationship between you & God thru Jesus Christ. Yes, there is a religion that came from that...but I would agree that religion is corrupt. All religion has traditions & many of those traditions are man made & are often brought on by man's selfish intent & desires. The whole "my church is better then your church" is brought on by religion & religious traditions that were made up by someone's interpretation of 1 or several verses in the Bible, often ignoring other areas or surrounding passages that sometimes contradict these interpretations. It's a big reason why there is so much confusion about this today. One church says it's a sin to drink, even though Jesus drank wine. They will even go as far as to preach that it wasn't really wine, but grape juice, even though His first documented miracle was turning water into wine at a wedding ceremony. :doh: Others will tell you that long hair is a sin, even though they have pictures all over the church of Jesus...with long hair. :doh: Christianity is more about your faith in Christ then it is about religion & tradition that often times, turns people away. And yes, I would agree it is a tragedy.

And I think this is what guides EVERYBODY, not just Christians. If you were to say it only guides Christians, then I'd say that non-Christians have something similar in their conscience. I feel like for some, the Holy Spirit is the thing that guides them to Christ (before they are actually a Christian), and for others it is what guides them away from Christianity (because for example, many see the corruption in religion) and their conscience is telling them not to become corrupt like that.

Well, as I pointed out, God made us in His image, so we have a spirit to start with. Not a Holy Spirit, just a spirit. That spirit is built with a spiritual GPS, so to speak. It knows to guide us in certain directions. However, the longer we go without following that GPS, the quieter our spirit gets & the harder it is to listen to it. I would agree that that is where our conscience is located & certain things we are born knowing.

However, the Holy Spirit does it's own thing. The Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit directly & guides us to Christ, to others that know Christ, & to those who need Christ. Our spirit alone does not know these things without the help of the Holy Spirit. Yes, non-Christians are also built with a spirit. It is how we connect to God, thru our spirits. It is the Holy Spirit that really completes that connection. The Holy Spirit guides non-Christians to Christ by speaking to their spirits in various ways. There are no English words that I can say that would make this more understandable. Because, honestly, that is the best I understand it.

I know that I am not anyone special & I am no preacher or great, devout Christian. I am a professed christian with many, MANY flaws. I make mistakes everyday & I sin on a regular basis. Sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly. I say things & do things that would often lead people to say, "He's a Christian?" I am only a tool (take that how you choose) that is often broken of my own accord & I try to help people whenever I can. My life has not gone well lately & my trust in people is so low that most of the time, when someone I don't know asks me if I need help, I often wonder what they want in return & simply say "No!" even when I really do need help. I am simply answering questions because I believe that I can be of some help here, but I also realize that with so many different beliefs, I can also be adding to the confusion.

So, that said, I hope that I am helping in some way, if not you, someone. But I am nobody. I am not a preacher or a minister. I have read the Bible & studied it's meaning for years, but do not go to church for many reasons, some of which I have expressed throughout this thread. You have to find your own faith & I hope that you find the answers you are looking for. And again, I hope I have helped in some way.

[Dallsux]

But part of this problem deals with our technology. Our telescopes can only detect planets of the size of Jupiter in other solar systems, but we're looking for something relatively the size of Earth. These planets the size of Jupiter (some) have shown the possibility of life, but we are unable to visit them right now. So a serious limitation to this question is our current technology.

You are right. As I said, I believe that we are the only planet with & can support life. But this is where I will say that without proof, I simply don't believe it. Since we haven't seen proof, it's not something I really even think about.

[wysknz1]

What end?

The end of our life as we know it.

Which is the beginning of life with Christ.

Or eternal death without.

[wysknz1]

You are right. As I said, I believe that we are the only planet with & can support life. But this is where I will say that without proof, I simply don't believe it. Since we haven't seen proof, it's not something I really even think about.

I don't know that it really matters. Other than, I read an article once that when Christians are removed from this planet it will be explained away as a mass alien abduction....but that thought could start a whole 'nuther discussion.

And for what it's worth I don't believe in extraterrestrials either. My way of thinking on the matter is:

A. There aren't any, never has been and never will be. We are it.

B. There are but they will never figure in to our world.

C. There has been before, there will be some after we are gone. But as of right now in our expanse of time we are it.

And really, what costitutes life? Life as we know it? There could be life that doesn't require oxygen, water etc etc. But it could still be life.

[Dallsux]

That sounds more like a dictator (and religious profiling) than a just God. And so since part of my Christian belief is that God is just, I find it impossible to believe that he would punish an Atheist simply for not believing.

Let me throw this at you. You have a child. That child is the love of your life. He starts to grow into the man you always wanted to see him grow into. One day, a friend comes to you & says that he is dying from a rare disease & the only way he will live is thru a transplant. Then you find out that the only person that has the right blood type with the right size & compatibility as your friend is your son. Now, this transplant will probably kill your son, but your son offers to do this anyway. You agree to allow this. The transplant takes place & your son dies. Afterwards, your friend comes over to your house & never even acknowledges that your son gave his life so that he may live. How would YOU feel? Everyone in the neighborhood that knew your son comes over & expresses their condolences & brings you gifts, even though he didn't die for them. But your friend, he dies for & he doesn't even acknowledge what he did, what he sacrificed...what YOU sacrificed. If you threw him out, would you NOT be justified? Now take that a step further. Your son dies to save your whole neighborhood. Some acknowledge it, others don't. Do you receive those into your house that don't acknowledge this & deny those who do? Would you care what things they did outside of that acknowledgement if they were truly repentant of those things & cared about you & your son?

you have to remember that we, as people, naturally put numbers on sin. Stealing a cracker is not as bad as murder to us. But not to God. Sin is sin, which is separation from God. But what separates the Christian from the non-Christian is the ackowledgement & acceptance of the sacrifice that He & His son, Jesus Christ laid down for us. He died so that you might live. That is what is most important.

[Dallsux]

I don't know that it really matters. Other than, I read an article once that when Christians are removed from this planet it will be explained away as a mass alien abduction....but that thought could start a whole 'nuther discussion.

And for what it's worth I don't believe in extraterrestrials either. My way of thinking on the matter is:

A. There aren't any, never has been and never will be. We are it.

B. There are but they will never figure in to our world.

C. There has been before, there will be some after we are gone. But as of right now in our expanse of time we are it.

And really, what costitutes life? Life as we know it? There could be life that doesn't require oxygen, water etc etc. But it could still be life.

Yeah, I have heard that as well. That when we are raptured, that the world will believe that aliens took all the "bad people" away to leave the non-Christians to finally live "in peace." ha-ha

Here's me question to all the Christians still reading this thread. When the Trumpet sounds, will we hear it & know it's coming or will it simply sound like loud claps of thunder? And, if we hear it, will non-Christians hear it & know what they are hearing or will THEY only hear loud claps of thunder?

[Dallsux]

I think though that there may be non-express Christians who could accept Christ without knowing or explicitly saying so. Someone could take the teachings of Christ to heart without ever knowing what a Bible was, or never hearing the word Christ. They are basic principles if you boil off the entire doctrinal minutia.

Ya know the funny thing is, the Bible covers this too. It talks about those that have never heard the Word of God & never even heard of Jesus at all. Those people could not POSSIBLY be judged harshly for not knowing Christ if they have never heard of Him.

Listen, God is merciful & just. A lot of what is being said about who is going to Hell & who isn't is mere speculation...even in Bible studies & churches. We, as humans, do not determine who goes to Hell & who doesn't. For all we know, Ghandi IS in Heaven. I have never read much about the man & I would NEVER pretend to know who God chooses to allow into Heaven & who He doesn't. What I know is based SOLELY on what the Bible says. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not CARE what some minister, preacher, priest, rabbi, great teacher or whatever tells me they know who's going to Heaven & hell & who isn't. NO ONE knows but God Himself.

I would tell anyone searching to stop listening to people who say things like that. There is no value in pretending to know who is where. Look at the 2 thieves that hung on the cross on either side of Jesus. One was repentant for his sins & accepted Jesus for who he was. The other didn't. Jesus said to the one who did accept Him, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise." That man was hours from dying, & he knew it. So was the other one, but he refused to believe. According to MOST religious fanatics, they would tell you that you can't do that. You can't get to the moment of your death & then decide that you believe & get into Heaven. That's absurd. But Jesus said otherwise.

So, regardless of what someone else says & how they believe they know God's heart, they don't. I don't. Which is why I can't sit in judgement on someone else's fate beyond this life. I don't know, you don't know, no one knows anyone else's heart but God. And I believe that there will be a lot of people in Heaven that would surprise almost everyone.

[Thinking Skins]

Let me throw this at you. You have a child. That child is the love of your life. He starts to grow into the man you always wanted to see him grow into. One day, a friend comes to you & says that he is dying from a rare disease & the only way he will live is thru a transplant. Then you find out that the only person that has the right blood type with the right size & compatibility as your friend is your son. Now, this transplant will probably kill your son, but your son offers to do this anyway. You agree to allow this. The transplant takes place & your son dies. Afterwards, your friend comes over to your house & never even acknowledges that your son gave his life so that he may live. How would YOU feel? Everyone in the neighborhood that knew your son comes over & expresses their condolences & brings you gifts, even though he didn't die for them. But your friend, he dies for & he doesn't even acknowledge what he did, what he sacrificed...what YOU sacrificed. If you threw him out, would you NOT be justified? Now take that a step further. Your son dies to save your whole neighborhood. Some acknowledge it, others don't. Do you receive those into your house that don't acknowledge this & deny those who do? Would you care what things they did outside of that acknowledgement if they were truly repentant of those things & cared about you & your son?

First let me say that thats a nice example.

But in this instance, its not ME giving up my life up for my friend, its my friend. Now, if my friend refused to acknowledge what my son did, it may irk me, maybe even piss me off. But not to the point where I'd get into "eye for an eye" type thing where I'm literally taking his life because he's not being thankful.

The key question I ask in this is WHY? Why did my son have the operation that took his life and saved my friend's? Was it to save my friend or was it to boost his own ego? If the reason is to boost his own ego, then I'd challenge my son and probably wouldn't let him do it because he has the wrong state of mind.

I've done a lot of good deeds in my lifetime. I would have liked to have been recognized for some (if not all) of them. But I realize that the reason I'm doing the deed isn't for the recognition, its because I feel its a deed that needs to be done. So when I don't get the community service award or the teacher of the year or whatever else I think I could be recognized for, its no sweat off my back and its doesn't make me feel unappreciated.

I mean, being an American means the right to freedom of speech. Sometimes citizens of America use that freedom of speech to speak against war, and yes sometimes they even speak against soldiers - those very soldiers that die for us. I pray that this doesn't make the soldiers not want to serve in the military, or to only want to save those who speak favorably of them.

Its a hard thing, but one thing I've had to deal with is people who don't appreciate me and what I do. Am I supposed to worship a God who hasn't learned this same ability?