http://www.recovery.gov/ is up (McD5 Thinks Biggest Heist in History!!!) (merged) MET

[Smoot Point Really]

Just read this link and look at the comments... It doesn't appear to be like "recovery.org" where they take comments, but don't actually let anyone see the comments or comment on the comments.

Link

[dfitzo53]

How can you not? Especially after the abortion known as the first stimulus package? aka, the banker's bonus plan.

Unfortunately, when money and government are involved, corruption usually follows.

Another point--the government is famous for overpaying for everything. Whether it is a $10,000 toilet, or anything else for that matter.

You or I could put up a chain link fence at a school for probably $3,000.

Once the govt steps in, that same chain link fence costs $30,000.

You didn't really answer his question.

How is the transparency a bad thing?

[GibbsFactor]

At least we know where the money is appropriated to. Just have to do our due diligence and keep on the ball.

If subcontracting is going on, we should all take this responsibility to make sure that the contracts are being carried out efficiently.

[SnyderShrugged]

I wish they did this with ALL spending bills.

[Bang]

I agree with McD5, unfortunately, and I really don't think he's ****ing about transparency or the government at all in this rant.. he's ****ing about the potential for more graft and thievery by corporations being awarded these funds.

I think the stimulus is a good idea, but I also think that it MUST BE thoroughly monitored. It doesn't look like they're going to monitor it nearly as close as it needs to be, and unfortunately, the scenarios McD5 presents are all too common. Hell, it's practically business as usual for government contractors, and it doesn't take any special insight to realize it.

HOPEFULLY.. this site and others like it will allow us to be our own watchdogs and to maybe prevent some of this. It's better than nothing.

~Bang

[gbear]

Wow, have any of you fearmongers ever done any government contracting?

Saying this is approved basically gives the green light for contractors to start putting in bids because the project has funds. Typically these are reviewed by COTARs (sp? because I can't remember what it stands for which is pathetic since I took the course). There is a long process in writing up the contracts, and typically there are some fairly specific rules on sub contracting out. At least there were with the ones I dealt with. Many of the contracts have probably been written for a while not but not open for bids because there was no money to fund them. I always assumed these were the contracts termed "shovel ready" because the work generating the needed contracts was done. Why ask for the companies to go through the effort of putting in a bid if you have no money to accept any bids?

I supose you could have a lazy/corrupt gov official give it out willy nilly to cousin bob, but the truth of the matter is that cousin bob better have promised to do more with less than Mr. Y. or Mrs.Z because they get to review the winning bids with an option to contest them in court (looks terrible for the gov employee who signed off if they lose, and, for the record, they do lose).

You talk about just subcontracting out the job to Mrs. Z's construction. Why didn't Mrs. Z bid if she could do the whole job? And why didn't somebody else under bid the winner? You talk about this like al of these deals are done behind closed doors with no effort to incorporate as much free market capitalism as possible. Look into the process before you criticize. Otherwise you just look like an uninofrmed boob.

[Smoot Point Really]

I don't think anyone is being a "fearmonger" by showing concern for corruption at the Government Contracting level. While you are correct on some points... There are many cases where Government contracts an entity to perform a task and that contract gets extended and additional money is requested or the contract does not get completed... It usually happens when people "under-bid" a job. Anyway, it looks like most of this money in the stimulus package is not contracts... it's "grants". They are just giving the money to state/local governments for them to actually handle the contracting...

Here is part of the problem though... Even if Federal Money is going to California to pay for legitimate contracts, California has pissed away $40B of its own money... This kind of debt and reliance on handouts from the Federal Government is an issue. It isn't "fearmongering" like using phrases such as "the worst economy since the Great Depression".

[pyro281]

That happens on just about (if not every) bill that Congress signs.

Trust me, I know this, and it pisses me off to no end. I never sign anything without reading it thoroughly, and what I sign only applies to ME. If what I signed had to apply for 300 million people, I'd DAMN sure read it first and make sure I understood what it said.

[Dan T.]

Wow, have any of you fearmongers ever done any government contracting?

Saying this is approved basically gives the green light for contractors to start putting in bids because the project has funds. Typically these are reviewed by COTARs (sp? because I can't remember what it stands for which is pathetic since I took the course). There is a long process in writing up the contracts, and typically there are some fairly specific rules on sub contracting out. At least there were with the ones I dealt with. Many of the contracts have probably been written for a while not but not open for bids because there was no money to fund them. I always assumed these were the contracts termed "shovel ready" because the work generating the needed contracts was done. Why ask for the companies to go through the effort of putting in a bid if you have no money to accept any bids?

...

Thanks for this counterbalance to McD5's alarmist ranting. Government contracting is far from perfect, but there are processes in place for bidding, and the bid process is often an onerous one for companies to go through. Winning bidders are usually held to performance measures as a condition of the awarding of the contract. COTR's - contracting officers' technical representatives - are the government people who evaluate the bids and recommend the contract award, then keep oversight of the contract once awarded.

And I'm trying hard to understand how a website intended to shine light on this process can be thought of as a bad thing.

[jrockster21]

It's a complete scam.

Check out another Tampa project. $8 million to "upgrade stop signs."

Where are you seeing this? The bill itself?

It is a great time to open a construction company quickly......notice how there is no mention of how the winning bids are chosen, or who chooses them? Hmmm....maybe $50k of taxpayers money under the table might get me a contract?

Maybe our VP used to run a big company, and we'll make all the contracts no-bid and funnel them exclusively to them....wait a minute...

[Popeman38]

jeeze man how can you ***** about transparency??

Making bull**** transparent doesn't make it not bull****. 50% of this bill is non-revenue generating spending. What that means is that this money is flushed, like when you go to the movies. You get entertained for 2 hours, but get nothing back for your money. The other 50% in theory is revenue generating.

[jrockster21]

I was just looking at this.....

WTF is "Protecting the Vulnerable"?!?!?!?

Those who have lost or are in danger of losing their jobs? My guess...

[Popeman38]

Maybe our VP used to run a big company, and we'll make all the contracts no-bid and funnel them exclusively to them....wait a minute...

Wow, Bush and Cheney evil. Good input.

Haliburton was, by their competitions own admission, the only company that could execute the contracts immediately. And just FYI, Clinton awarded the same no-bid contracts to Haliburton through KBR for every military operation of his Presidency. Kosovo and Bosnia, KBR was the only contractor on base.

[Popeman38]

Those who have lost or are in danger of losing their jobs? My guess...

That is called propping up the economy. Doesn't work.

[McD5]

Where are you seeing this? The bill itself?

Maybe our VP used to run a big company, and we'll make all the contracts no-bid and funnel them exclusively to them....wait a minute...

From the local paper here. As of Sunday, they already had a breakdown on all contracts coming to the state of Florida.

"Manhole cover replacement" is another one in Tampa. Manhole covers? I guess that is okay. Not really high on my list of priorities though.

I support Obama 150%. And I am conservative. I have no issue with him.

I do have issues with the contract theft involved with subcontracting. Scumbags all over the country are drooling right now, in hopes of winning the contracts.....hiring as few people as possible...then subcontracting out the projects for less.

By the time it is all said and done.....you have companies that the contract was not awarded to doing the work. Not the best companies as deemed by the panel--but the cheapest that come along later.

The main company skims millions off the top, then walks away, leaving us to hold the bag.

See: Big Dig

[alexey]

I agree with McD5, unfortunately, and I really don't think he's ****ing about transparency or the government at all in this rant.. he's ****ing about the potential for more graft and thievery by corporations being awarded these funds.

I think the stimulus is a good idea, but I also think that it MUST BE thoroughly monitored. It doesn't look like they're going to monitor it nearly as close as it needs to be, and unfortunately, the scenarios McD5 presents are all too common. Hell, it's practically business as usual for government contractors, and it doesn't take any special insight to realize it.

HOPEFULLY.. this site and others like it will allow us to be our own watchdogs and to maybe prevent some of this. It's better than nothing.

~Bang

I was under the impression that making this open and transparent in order to reduce waste and opportunity for corruption was the idea. So the very point of this web site is to help address some concerns listed in this thread... And driving reform in government using transparancy and openness is one of Obama's fundamental agendas... "sunshine" policies is the reason why he has a sun in his logo.... Also, the sky is falling.

[ccsl2]

How about adding a simple clause to these awarded contracts?

Something along the lines of, "If you subcontract this work out, you are 100% responsible for the completion of the tasks involved, up to the highest standards. Should you subcontract this out, and it isn't completed as promised, you will be required to return all money awarded, and you could face a loss of your business license, and possibly be subject to additional prosecution?"

Why not stop this before we see stories of contract abuse on 60 minutes a year from now?

These stipulations are ususally spelled out when acquistion plans are done. Many factors are invovled: What type of contract will it be, what will the the evaluation factors for award (i.e will it be based on price alone or whether technical factors and price will be used together to get a best value award, etc.), will subcontracting plans be involved. Usually you award to a prime contractor, who is ultimately responsible for it's work and the work of the subcontractors. A lot of your concerns are can be alleviated with proper acquisition planning.

[Dictator]

SOOOOOO....

going by that Stimulus Watch website....Baltimore City is getting $13.5M for some projects. The total jobs created by these projects? Zero.

13 Million spent. Zero Job Created.

that's not a comprehensive list of all the money requested by Maryland in the package.

There are programs which should provide jobs.

[ccsl2]

How can you not? Especially after the abortion known as the first stimulus package? aka, the banker's bonus plan.

Unfortunately, when money and government are involved, corruption usually follows.

Another point--the government is famous for overpaying for everything. Whether it is a $10,000 toilet, or anything else for that matter.

You or I could put up a chain link fence at a school for probably $3,000.

Once the govt steps in, that same chain link fence costs $30,000.

This overpaying argument is so tired. Instead of looking at how much the things cost, ask what are the requirements for what is being built? If it was a regular toilet that just need to flush at a house, ok $10K is can be too much. But if their are special requirements for the toilet (i.e. what the toilet is made out of, how much water can it hold, how fast does it have to flush, etc.), then cost can be higher than the average.

[ccsl2]

Wow, have any of you fearmongers ever done any government contracting?

Saying this is approved basically gives the green light for contractors to start putting in bids because the project has funds. Typically these are reviewed by COTARs (sp? because I can't remember what it stands for which is pathetic since I took the course). There is a long process in writing up the contracts, and typically there are some fairly specific rules on sub contracting out. At least there were with the ones I dealt with. Many of the contracts have probably been written for a while not but not open for bids because there was no money to fund them. I always assumed these were the contracts termed "shovel ready" because the work generating the needed contracts was done. Why ask for the companies to go through the effort of putting in a bid if you have no money to accept any bids?

I supose you could have a lazy/corrupt gov official give it out willy nilly to cousin bob, but the truth of the matter is that cousin bob better have promised to do more with less than Mr. Y. or Mrs.Z because they get to review the winning bids with an option to contest them in court (looks terrible for the gov employee who signed off if they lose, and, for the record, they do lose).

You talk about just subcontracting out the job to Mrs. Z's construction. Why didn't Mrs. Z bid if she could do the whole job? And why didn't somebody else under bid the winner? You talk about this like al of these deals are done behind closed doors with no effort to incorporate as much free market capitalism as possible. Look into the process before you criticize. Otherwise you just look like an uninofrmed boob.

:applause: Good stuff in here. COTR = Contracting Officer's Technical Representative. They basically act as a representative for the Contracting Officer to enforce the contract. They can't change the contract. Only the Contracting Officer can do that.

[FanboyOf91]

I'm pretty sure the future Social Security and Medicare liabilities are the biggest heists in history.

[ChocolateCitySkin]

seems like some of the gopers will poo on anything these days.

[Dictator]

seems like some of the gopers will poo on anything these days.

And some people will use party affiliation to get a cheap shot in.

[Cassow]

You talk about just subcontracting out the job to Mrs. Z's construction. Why didn't Mrs. Z bid if she could do the whole job? And why didn't somebody else under bid the winner? You talk about this like al of these deals are done behind closed doors with no effort to incorporate as much free market capitalism as possible. Look into the process before you criticize. Otherwise you just look like an uninofrmed boob.

In an ideal world, that would be the case. When it comes to the Government and quickly dishing out large sums of money, that hasn't happened. Sadly, McD5 is right on this one. The Government requires a certain percentage of contracts be awarded to small businesses, minority owned businesses, women owned..etc. They win the contract, subcontract it out for much less, that company subcontracts it out for even less...etc., and the Government is happy because they met their quota. Or they can find a way to justify sole-sourcing the contract and the process repeats itself.

Look at Hurricane Katrina for a recent example http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20060824110705-30132.pdf Only 30% of those contracts had full and open competition, the other 70% were either sole-sourced or non-competitive. Just look at the trash removal effort. The Government paid 2 billion for four contracts to remove trash, paying $23 per cubic yard. Those contracts were then sub-contracted out almost a dozen times and the final contractor ended up doing it for around $3 a cubic yard. Now why didn't the Government just find that $3 contractor and hire them? Same thing happened with contracts for roofing, housing, trailers, etc. Not to mention the outright fraud and abuse on the part of the contracting companies to steal more money (faking deliveries..etc.). And we were only dealing with a fraction of the money being spent now.

Unfortunately nobody will read about it for 2 years when the GAO writes their reports.

[ldysknzfn1]

Good concept...but...won't we only be able to see what they input into the website? How do we know if every single penny will be accounted for thru this website? They could forget to input a few million..whose going to know? Us?