Trade Rogers or not?

[Thinking Skins]

Didn't he have one LESS pass defensed than Asante Samuel?

I take it that you won't say that Samuel is less than extraordinary.

Carlos Rogers has 24 passes defended, Samuel had 22. They were going after Samuel a lot too, but Samuel is a 50/50 guy. Sometimes he'll make the play, sometimes he'll give up the play. So that's why he gets tested more than Carlos. But the fact taht a CB has a high number of passes defended does imply that the QBs are not afraid of them.

[Mercuryrising]

Carlos Rogers has 24 passes defended, Samuel had 22. They were going after Samuel a lot too, but Samuel is a 50/50 guy. Sometimes he'll make the play, sometimes he'll give up the play. So that's why he gets tested more than Carlos. But the fact taht a CB has a high number of passes defended does imply that the QBs are not afraid of them.

Or they play off a bit to trick the QB to throw it their way anyway, and then close it down or make the play. QB's see seperation and most of them in the heat of the play will react regardless of who the CB is thinking they can get the ball in. That is when the elite CB's take the play over. Los can close the seperation down, but he rarely makes the play. Hall and Samuals make the play.

Having said that: I think LOS is on the brink of being elite. If we only got a #2 for him I would be extreemly disappointed unless we were able to use that #2 on OG Mack or LB Mathews. Even then I would hope to get an ugrade over Smoot before the season started in case Springs goes down (he will).

[darrelgreenie]

I understand that, but the question is is the D-Line hole a more important hole than the secondary hole?

How many teams were in the playoffs this year with a dominant secondary adn an average D-Line vs an dominant D-line and an average secondary?

Hmmmmnnnn.......IMO its hard to quantify dominant vs average so i really have no idea really. But, i would say that all of the defensive lines and secondaries in the playoffs were/are pretty good.

I would like to see our defense add and not subtract, if we could just get a little more pass rush.

If trading Rogers could get us a legitimate DT, OL, (or OLB for those who say this is our weakest spot), would you do it?

I would only trade Rogers for a young legitimate pass rusher (12+ sacks per season). But, those types of pass rushers don't grow on trees and i doubt if trading Rogers would get us that.

[NewCliche21]

I don't think that people are really thinking about the future when talking about trading Rogers.

Who, exactly, replaces him? Smoot? Yeah right. Springs would get injured playing Madden. Tryon? Who?

Our secondary is our ONLY bright spot. Can we please keep it intact?

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

For quite awhile only raiders' fans listed Nnamdi as elite. I'm not saying Rogers is a great corner, but just because other fans don't know a guy doesn't mean the guy isn't good. If a corner isn't putting up 8+ interceptions a year he won't get noticed. Shutting down your side of the field is something you don't see on a stat sheet.

When I say I've never heard anyone refer to Carlos as a elite level CB I was referring to NFL personnel people..

[NewCliche21]

When I say I've never heard anyone refer to Carlos as a elite level CB I was referring to NFL personnel people..

How often do you talk to NFL personnel people?

[Pounds]

Your stats could be misleading. He was definitely our best corner this year, but the fact that he had an NFL high in passes defended could be skewed because out lack of pass rush resulted in more opportunities for him to defend passes.

All the more reason to give 'Los the credit he's due. He doesn't control the front seven; all he can do is what is expected of him and as a corner that is to defend the pass.

The only people that I've ever heard mention Carlos as an elite level CB are Redskins fans.

Something to think about.....

This is kinda like the Pro Bowl effect, isn't it? Just because fans of the 31 other teams don't know what we have in Carlos, doesn't mean we're wrong.

But the fact that he has an NFL high 24 passes defended is part of the problem. When Darrell Green was an elite CB, QBs were afraid to test him because he would make them pay. Rogers doesn't strike that fear in opposing QBs and so he gets picked on more. The fact that he doesn't get beaten as often sounds good and all, but the fact that he doesn't make big plays is what keeps him from being elite.

I agree; he's not elite. I said he was near elite and when/if he starts making INTs, he will have all the criteria to be considered elite. He may not have the rep that comes with a great corner, but that's something he has to build. I think he's laying a solid foundation.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

How often do you talk to NFL personnel people?

All the time.

[Recent Vintage]

I don't think we should because it can hard to get a guy who can be a legitimate receiver.

Of course if on draft day there's a 'sure thing' to trade up for, or a really good deal I'd say pull the trigger, but honestly... How comfortable are you with Springs/Smoot? We'd have to spend another pick on a CB soon unless Tryon ends up being some kind of miracle.

[turbodiesel#44]

This all depends on how much CR wants. He is not worth top 10 money. I have always defended his CB skills and his maturation, minus his hands of stone. If he wants Springs type money he can take a hike, especially if he wants to leave anyway.

You guys who say "oh well, so what" when he drops ANOTHER pass that hits him in the numbers don't know much about football. We lose a possession, often with scoring field position, every time that happens. And it happens every time he has an opportunity. Turnovers change games, and we sure could use somebody who can make them.

Vinny overpaying mediocre to average players has got us in the boat we are in now.

[Dance04]

I don't think that people are really thinking about the future when talking about trading Rogers.

Who, exactly, replaces him? Smoot? Yeah right. Springs would get injured playing Madden. Tryon? Who?

Our secondary is our ONLY bright spot. Can we please keep it intact?

And for those who don't know, NC used to be strongly against Rogers. Should say something about how good Rogers is.

[Redskins:Victory_or_Death]

And for those who don't know, NC used to be strongly against Rogers. Should say something about how good Rogers is.

Exactly.

[Oldskool]

With an NFL high 24 passes defended, I would argue that Carlos is very near an elite level. Coming off of major knee surgery and, now with a full season under his belt, there is no reason to believe that he won't be even better next season as he enters the prime of his career.

Passes defended is not a very telltale sign of whether a CB is good or not, only an indication of how often he is picked on and was successful.

Also, I think his impact on our secondary is an irrefutable one. He has the best man-coverage skills of any corner on our team, with the exception of Springs.

His impact has been two things;

1. QB's can throw at his receivers with nigh a chance that he will intercept a pass. This is huge when game planning against a defense.

2. Whether by design of the system or his own choice, Rogers has never been a physical receiver, game in and game out. There are games that he plays 10 yards off the LoS and games that he is all over his target. In either case, he has been inconsistent.

You have got to be kidding me. Please watch Rogers from 2007 to 2008. He has been nothing but fantastic. So he doesn't get the picks, yeah, that's a knock on him, but to call him inconsistent just shows that you haven't been paying attention. The stats are already in this thread, so I won't bother rehashing them.

Posts like this make me laugh. "Fantastic" as you put it is actually sufficient effort and talent to be a good CB in the NFL. As stated above, the glaring weakness of Rogers game makes game planning against the defense that much easier. Rogers is no better than guys like Anthony Henry and Sheldon Brown statswise throughout the body of their careers.

There are few corners that I'd want over Carlos Rogers, and you would, too, if you could pay attention to Week 2 of last year and beyond. But no, that's impossible, especially since you think that he's less valuable now than he was when he was rookie doing absolutely NOTHING on the field.

Spare me the drama and the hyperbole. Rogers came back nicely from knee surgery and that is great but it does not make up for his defects. The fact is that Rogers is a career #2 CB with an incomplete skill set for the position. He falls into the same category as Defensive Ends that don't produce sacks and Defensive Tackles that don't collapse the pocket. Skins fans seem to be fascinated and enthralled with players that can't do all facets of their jobs.

As a whole, we'd be much better off signing Hall and going with a cadre of Springs, Smoot and Hall this year at CB.

[Dance04]

As a whole, we'd be much better off signing Hall and going with a cadre of Springs, Smoot and Hall this year at CB.

I am NOT ok with getting rid of a 27 year old who has only missed time cuz his knee blew out and keeping a old CB who plays 5 games a year.

Getting rid of rogers and keeping springs forces us to go after a CB very high in the draft next year, or dish out cash for a new one.

Instead lets keep the younger guy and not worry about our secondary for years.

[Oldskool]

I am NOT ok with getting rid of a 27 year old who has only missed time cuz his knee blew out and keeping a old CB who plays 5 games a year.

Getting rid of rogers and keeping springs forces us to go after a CB very high in the draft next year, or dish out cash for a new one.

Instead lets keep the younger guy and not worry about our secondary for years.

Good plan if Rogers was not going to be a UFA next year and most likely demand quite a bit of money.

There is no good solution here at all. Springs needs to be replaced and that can be taken care of with re-signing Hall. Smoot is a good 2nd CB and on the books until the end of the 2011 season. There are also several very talented CB's coming in the 2010 draft at the CB position and with all our picks (so far) we can take care of that issue then.

What people fail to understand is that our CB play won't make any difference next year without an upgrade on the D-line. Our limited picks this year are better suited to addressing the O-line and OLB spots. Sure trading Rogers for a pick is stealing from Peter to pay Paul, but Peter is in much better shape than Paul is.

[Dance04]

Good plan if Rogers was not going to be a UFA next year and most likely demand quite a bit of money.

There is no good solution here at all. Springs needs to be replaced and that can be taken care of with re-signing Hall. Smoot is a good 2nd CB and on the books until the end of the 2011 season. There are also several very talented CB's coming in the 2010 draft at the CB position and with all our picks (so far) we can take care of that issue then.

What people fail to understand is that our CB play won't make any difference next year without an upgrade on the D-line. Our limited picks this year are better suited to addressing the O-line and OLB spots. Sure trading Rogers for a pick is stealing from Peter to pay Paul, but Peter is in much better shape than Paul is.

I see you point, I just feel it more beneficial to keep the younger, healthier player, even if it is for one more season, instead of an old vet who is ALWAYS injured and who would save us 6.5 million against the cap if he were cut.

Basically under the situation you describe, who would u rather have for one year? Springs or Rogers? I take rogers (and personally i would lock him up)

[PROSCOUT]

Trade Rogers and pick up a pass rusher and count me in.

Its amazing how many pro bowl corners the Giants seemed to have last season when 3 defensive linemen were amassing those 35 sacks between them.

1 shutdown corner in Hall(shutting down 1/2 of the field) and putting pressure on the QB will make a world of difference considering our safeties. Trade Hall for a 2nd rounder, then use the 2nd rounder on an offensive lineman and use the 13th pick on a defensive pass rusher. Sounds like a plan.

[Rypien1191]

If you want to turn a strength into a weakness (our secondary), and gamble that we'd get a player as good as Carlos in the late 2nd round of the draft, and then in turn have a weak secondary to go with our weak pass rush next year, by all means trade him.

We have two corners of note on our team (if we keep Hall). Hall and Rogers.

If we get rid of Carlos, that forces us to keep Springs another year, which forces us to eat 6 mil in cap space that could be used on a decent FA, or signing Hall.

Springs has at most one year left either way. Smoot is on the decline, a #3 CB. Tryon is nothing so far. If we get ride of Carlos, that leaves us with Hall. That is NOT a good secondary.

Id love another draft pick as much as the next guy, but if Carlos goes, our defense is gonna be hurtin next year.

[Mercuryrising]

Smoot is a good 2nd CB

Sorry Oldskool, he is not. He is what would be termed a below-average to poor 2nd CB.

If Los gets traded we start with Springs #2 and when he goes down to injury we hope the CB we grabbed in rd 3 or 4 is ready. (Asher Allen or Bruce Johnson (U) - either can replace ARE at PR as well)

Smoot, Tryon and M Richardson (DOH! KC!!!!) can compete for #3CB.

Best lineman available (OT Jason Smith, OT Eben Britton, OG Duke Robinson, DT Peria Jerry?) rd 1 (trade down)

C Eric Wood (or Max Unger, DE Paul Kruger) in rd2 (from trade down)

OLB Clay Mathews Jr. round 2 (from Los trade) Replaces MW and provides another source of QB pressure for Blache to work with.

OG Kraig Urbik, DT Chris Baker, CB/PR Asher Allen or DE Robert Ayers rd 3

CB/PR Bruce Johnson (U) or HB James Davis rd 4

BPA rds 5 and 6

[Spartacus87]

Good plan if Rogers was not going to be a UFA next year and most likely demand quite a bit of money.

There is no good solution here at all. Springs needs to be replaced and that can be taken care of with re-signing Hall. Smoot is a good 2nd CB and on the books until the end of the 2011 season. There are also several very talented CB's coming in the 2010 draft at the CB position and with all our picks (so far) we can take care of that issue then.

What people fail to understand is that our CB play won't make any difference next year without an upgrade on the D-line. Our limited picks this year are better suited to addressing the O-line and OLB spots. Sure trading Rogers for a pick is stealing from Peter to pay Paul, but Peter is in much better shape than Paul is.

Good plan if it's actually absolutely guaranteed that we can/will upgrade our d-line by trading Rogers.

First off, where is it written in stone that a team would give us a 2nd round pick for him? I don't recall seeing that anywhere, and frankly, that idea is laughable. Especially considering we're the Redskins, and we just dished out a 2nd round pick for Jason Taylor, two seasons removed from winning DPOY. Teams look at us in the trade market and smile, knowing how they can take advantage of us.

And we're somehow going to fleece a team into giving us a first day pick for Rogers?

Rogers is a damn good cover guy, but the simple fact that he has bad hands means teams in need of a corner, aren't going to give us a first day pick to get him. They'll use that 2nd on their own future corner.

And in the instance that we DO somehow get a 2nd round pick for Rogers, what's the guarantee we use it to upgrade our d-line? Who's to say we don't use our 1st round pick, and our new 2nd round pick, on two guys for the o-line?

Then we've lost Rogers, with no suitable replacement even close to his ability, and haven't upgraded the d-line either.

This whole theory of trading Rogers to make the defense better is based on a bunch of BS speculation.

We're talking about trading away one our best young players because we're actually scared to pay one of our own guys what he's worth (crazy notion for the Redskins obviously), only to guess that maybe in the process we could somehow possibly find a way to equalize it or make the whole picture better by getting some stud on the d-line.

Of course I'd love to upgrade the d-line, especially the DT spot, which I think is garbage, particularly when compared to the rest of the NFC East alone.

But trading Rogers doesn't provide any kind of automatic fix to that at all. If we really want to do that, either draft B.J. Raji at 13, or trade back somehow and try to get Peria Jerry.

[NewCliche21]

And for those who don't know, NC used to be strongly against Rogers. Should say something about how good Rogers is.

Hated him, actually, until Week 2 of 2007. He had done nothing but disappoint prior to that, and he's done nothing but shine since.

[NewCliche21]

Good plan if it's actually absolutely guaranteed that we can/will upgrade our d-line by trading Rogers.

First off, where is it written in stone that a team would give us a 2nd round pick for him? I don't recall seeing that anywhere, and frankly, that idea is laughable. Especially considering we're the Redskins, and we just dished out a 2nd round pick for Jason Taylor, two seasons removed from winning DPOY. Teams look at us in the trade market and smile, knowing how they can take advantage of us.

And we're somehow going to fleece a team into giving us a first day pick for Rogers?

Rogers is a damn good cover guy, but the simple fact that he has bad hands means teams in need of a corner, aren't going to give us a first day pick to get him. They'll use that 2nd on their own future corner.

And in the instance that we DO somehow get a 2nd round pick for Rogers, what's the guarantee we use it to upgrade our d-line? Who's to say we don't use our 1st round pick, and our new 2nd round pick, on two guys for the o-line?

Then we've lost Rogers, with no suitable replacement even close to his ability, and haven't upgraded the d-line either.

This whole theory of trading Rogers to make the defense better is based on a bunch of BS speculation.

We're talking about trading away one our best young players because we're actually scared to pay one of our own guys what he's worth (crazy notion for the Redskins obviously), only to guess that maybe in the process we could somehow possibly find a way to equalize it or make the whole picture better by getting some stud on the d-line.

Of course I'd love to upgrade the d-line, especially the DT spot, which I think is garbage, particularly when compared to the rest of the NFC East alone.

But trading Rogers doesn't provide any kind of automatic fix to that at all. If we really want to do that, either draft B.J. Raji at 13, or trade back somehow and try to get Peria Jerry.

Spot on! :notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

Can we please close the thread now?

[Smoot Point Really]

Hated him, actually, until Week 2 of 2007. He had done nothing but disappoint prior to that, and he's done nothing but shine since.

He has improved in coverage, but his lack of playmaking is still a problem and there is not much there to think it will improve. Another person here said it better than I, but I will paraphrase: Opposing QBs know they can take chances throwing to Carlos Rogers' side because they know he won't make them pay.

Turning point in last season was his dropped interception in Pittsburgh... We were already ahead in the game and could've moved ahead even more. Worst case scenario, we would be up 13-10 at half instead of down 10-6. His 43-yard pass interference in that game also hurt, but not so badly as the interception. Cornerbacks are bound to get burned occasionally, but what separates the great ones from Carlos Rogers is the ability to make a QB pay for his mistakes and make plays. Imagine how that game would've turned out had we been able to mix up the play-calling instead of playing from behind. Clinton Portis ran for 51 yards on only 13 carries. Campbell threw the ball 43 times. Our defense sacked the Steelers 5 times in the game. We should've won that, but asking a CB to make a play is a bit too much... Had we gone into the bye week beating Pittsburgh and 7-2 instead of 6-3, who knows what this team was capable of?

[Smoot Point Really]

As I said before, I wouldn't trade Rogers just to make him happy. I wouldn't also let him walk out the door and get nothing in return. Re-sign him or trade him... It doesn't make a difference as long as you are improving the team. I think he is a solid corner, but not worthy of the 9th pick where we drafted him. He has been a bust of a 9th round pick, but solid if we had gotten him in the 2nd round.

[Stew]

If he doesn't want to be here then we should do what is best for both sides and trade him and get what we can for him. Life will go on without Carlos Rogers.