Trade Rogers or not?

[NewCliche21]

He has improved in coverage, but his lack of playmaking is still a problem and there is not much there to think it will improve. Another person here said it better than I, but I will paraphrase: Opposing QBs know they can take chances throwing to Carlos Rogers' side because they know he won't make them pay.

Turning point in last season was his dropped interception in Pittsburgh... We were already ahead in the game and could've moved ahead even more. Worst case scenario, we would be up 13-10 at half instead of down 10-6. His 43-yard pass interference in that game also hurt, but not so badly as the interception. Cornerbacks are bound to get burned occasionally, but what separates the great ones from Carlos Rogers is the ability to make a QB pay for his mistakes and make plays. Imagine how that game would've turned out had we been able to mix up the play-calling instead of playing from behind. Clinton Portis ran for 51 yards on only 13 carries. Campbell threw the ball 43 times. Our defense sacked the Steelers 5 times in the game. We should've won that, but asking a CB to make a play is a bit too much... Had we gone into the bye week beating Pittsburgh and 7-2 instead of 6-3, who knows what this team was capable of?

Oh come on, SPR. That's not even close to being a good point. There is no one play that ruined this season (though if it is, it's Kendall's Katastrophe). Blaming that game, much less the SEASON, on Rogers is just ridiculous.

[Pounds]

Passes defended is not a very telltale sign of whether a CB is good or not, only an indication of how often he is picked on and was successful.

You're right and I didn't intend for it to seem as though it's the only measurable. But, in keeping with your logic, why wouldn't a league high in passes defended prove that Carlos is a near elite corner? Was he picked on more than Springs? Sure, but he held his own when he did get picked on. That stat is reflective of that very thing.

Take DeAngelo for example. In Oakland he was getting picked on because nobody throws on Nnamdi, yet he didn't hold his own as well as Carlos did.

DeAngelo makes more INTs, but I'd take Carlos over him everyday of the week. In fact, making INTs is DeAngelo's only redeeming quality. To my eye, there's more to good corner play than merely catching the ball; and with the exception of a handful, Carlos exhibits the best man-coverage skills of anyone in the league.

1. QB's can throw at his receivers with nigh a chance that he will intercept a pass. This is huge when game planning against a defense.

Absolutely' date=' otherwise I would consider Carlos elite. Until he starts making those INTs, he will always get picked on in the passing game.

However, on a long-enough timeline those are INTs that he will make.

2. Whether by design of the system or his own choice, Rogers has never been a physical receiver, game in and game out. There are games that he plays 10 yards off the LoS and games that he is all over his target. In either case, he has been inconsistent.

I agree, Springs is our most physical corner, far-and-away; Carlos isn't as physical as I would like, but I suppose that's just his style and wouldn't necessarily preclude him from elite status.

As far as his cushion, it seems as though he prefers playing off-man as opposed to press-man. Many corners like to do that as they feel they can read the QB, but it also may be a function of the scheme. For instance, in a cover-2 or cover-3 zone, very seldom, if ever, will a corner press.

[NewCliche21]

Rogers plays much, much better when in press (see Week 2 in 2007).

Also, he is becoming much more physical as he progresses. He still had the hit of the year, I think it was Arizona, when he knocked that guy into a triple axle backflip. One of the sickest hits I've ever seen.

Anybody remember that one?

[Pounds]

Anybody remember that one?

On Braylon Edwards? Against Cleveland, is that the hit you're talking about? If it is, yeah, Carlos absolutely decimated that guy.

[NewCliche21]

On Braylon Edwards? Against Cleveland, is that the hit you're talking about? If it is, yeah, Carlos absolutely decimated that guy.

You know what? I think that it was the Browns game, but the hit was against Joshua Cribbs.

I'd love to see that video again.

And here we go: http://vodpod.com/watch/1097503-carlos-rogers-destroys-joshua-cribbs

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

However, on a long-enough timeline those are INTs that he will make.

Why do you think that? If he hasn't been able to catch by now I doubt he'll suddenly aquire the ability. :2cents:

[Smoot Point Really]

Oh come on, SPR. That's not even close to being a good point. There is no one play that ruined this season (though if it is, it's Kendall's Katastrophe). Blaming that game, much less the SEASON, on Rogers is just ridiculous.

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying...

I didn't blame the season on him... I blamed him for not making a play... the play that was the turning point in the season.

"Kendall's Katastrophe" happened 3 weeks earlier and didn't prevent us from winning the next 2 games. We went 2-6 after Carlos dropped the ball.

Both were boneheaded plays, but Carlos has a history of letting opportunities like this slip through his fingers. He only catches the ball when the games are meaningless.

[Pounds]

Why do you think that? If he hasn't been able to catch by now I doubt he'll suddenly aquire the ability. :2cents:

It should be assumed that over time a player will improve on his abilities, through good coaching and a will to excel. I'm sure two seasons ago many people would've been surprised to know that Carlos would improve as much as he has. He may not possess the best hands for a corner, but all he has to do is clear that mental hurdle. With some catching the ball is an innate talent, but with others it is a skill that is developed.

[Pounds]

You know what? I think that it was the Browns game, but the hit was against Joshua Cribbs.

Yup, you're right; I guess I was hoping that the hit was on Braylon. Man, in real-time, that hit was lethal.

[NewCliche21]

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying...

I didn't blame the season on him... I blamed him for not making a play... the play that was the turning point in the season.

"Kendall's Katastrophe" happened 3 weeks earlier and didn't prevent us from winning the next 2 games. We went 2-6 after Carlos dropped the ball.

Both were boneheaded plays, but Carlos has a history of letting opportunities like this slip through his fingers. He only catches the ball when the games are meaningless.

Come on, man. If you're saying that Rogers dropping the ball was the turning point of our season, and our season divebombed after said drop, then you're saying that Rogers is ultimately to blame for the season.

I'll take a corner who drops a bunch of picks and doesn't give up many big plays over the other way around.

A defensive back's priority list:

1) Make sure that that guy in the other uniform doesn't catch the ball.

2) Catch the ball.

He's got number one down, and that's really what matters to me.

[Laron Burgundy]

We don't run a lot of zone coverage with our corners. That is one thing that makes it tougher to get interceptions. We don't get enough pressure with our defensive line. That's another. Rogers got 2 picks this year. Which was 1 behind leading our team. Yeah, that sucks. Nonetheless rogers is not the problem with this team.

No one on this entire defense besides Hall has shown any ability to get interceptions routinely. Of course, I'm sure that would all change if we got pressure on qb's. Also, you have to remember we were 4-6 in games we got an interception and 4-2 in games we didn't. It's not like getting picks guarantees that you win.

[SkinsFTW]

I just can't believe that after all these years nobody taught Rogers to catch the ball coming his way. That should have been his first assignment coming out of college.

Hell, Tiki Barber learned in one single off season under Coughlin how to not fumble. Why can't they have people follow Rogers around throwing balls at him until he gets a ****ing clue?

[NewCliche21]

I just can't believe that after all these years nobody taught Rogers to catch the ball coming his way. That should have been his first assignment coming out of college.

Hell, Tiki Barber learned in one single off season under Coughlin how to not fumble. Why can't they have people follow Rogers around throwing balls at him until he gets a ****ing clue?

No idea, and I've been thinking the same thing.

If he WERE able to catch the ball all the time, then he'd be a wide receiver.

[Stew]

We don't run a lot of zone coverage with our corners. That is one thing that makes it tougher to get interceptions. We don't get enough pressure with our defensive line. That's another. Rogers got 2 picks this year. Which was 1 behind leading our team. Yeah, that sucks. Nonetheless rogers is not the problem with this team.

No one on this entire defense besides Hall has shown any ability to get interceptions routinely. Of course, I'm sure that would all change if we got pressure on qb's. Also, you have to remember we were 4-6 in games we got an interception and 4-2 in games we didn't. It's not like getting picks guarantees that you win.

How many dropped INT's did he have? How many of those drops would have gone for 6?

[cyfar]

Short Answer: No

While he drives me crazy with the way he plays 10 yards off of his man and drops pick after pick, I am still happy with his play. He's a solid corner that just can't seem to make the big play just yet. Will he ever get to that point? Who knows, but I will take a solid corner who drops the ocassional pick over the one who gets burned on a regular basis, but is able to catch the ball.

[Laron Burgundy]

Every corner drops ints. It is why they play corner and not receiver. Nonetheless it doesn't change the fact that we were .400 when we got interceptions and .667 when we didn't. Would those would-be pick sixes have been great? Sure. How about all those would-be sacks we were gonna get too?

How's shawn springs at picking the ball off? Oh, he averages 1.75 interceptions a year the past 4 years. And smoot? 1.25! Rogers is at 1.5 for the past 4 years so that is pretty par for course for our corners.

[Laron Burgundy]

And to note, Jason David got 5 picks this year and 3 the year before! We need a corner like him! Oh, that's right, he gives up 11.2 yards per attempt. Interceptions are good and all but come secondary to being able to cover a receiver. It would be awesome if he had great hands but I'd rather he just limited qb's to 4-5 ypa when throwing at him. Do you really want to gamble on getting a new corner who might be unable to cover anyone?

[Spartacus87]

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying...

I didn't blame the season on him... I blamed him for not making a play... the play that was the turning point in the season.

"Kendall's Katastrophe" happened 3 weeks earlier and didn't prevent us from winning the next 2 games. We went 2-6 after Carlos dropped the ball.

Both were boneheaded plays, but Carlos has a history of letting opportunities like this slip through his fingers. He only catches the ball when the games are meaningless.

Give me a break.

Now I've heard it all. Rogers dropping that INT was the turning point in the season?

Never thought I'd hear that one. So not the o-line breaking down, Campbell going downhill in his playing ability, Portis wearing down, the young receivers never stepping up outside of one Thomas end around play...no, the season changer was Rogers dropping that pick.

Otherwise who knows what would've happened to us this year right? Could have gone deep in the play offs I'm sure.

[Stew]

How's shawn springs at picking the ball off? Oh, he averages 1.75 interceptions a year the past 4 years. And smoot? 1.25! Rogers is at 1.5 for the past 4 years so that is pretty par for course for our corners.

So because none our DB'd minus Hall are good at catching INT's, that excuses CR for dropping his? No, it sure doesn't. Par for the course is the weakest excuse for keeping a player... ever. Par for the course or not, more turnovers in the form of picks is always something to strive for. CR not catching picks alone is not reason enough to move him. However, when you combine his "hands like feet" with the fact that he doesn't want to play here and has only been a productive corner in the league for two seasons, in conjunction for what we could get for him, it seems like a no brainer to move him. He doesn't want to be here. Also, Unhappy players make unhappy locker rooms. If we got a first round pick, then it would be worth it. If we got two seconds or a second or third rounder for him, it would be worth it.

If you are going to trade a player, you do it at their most marketable moment to get the most in return for that player. I remember when there was trade speculation of Betts and a pick for Vilma. In hindsight, that trade would have been great for us. Look at us now hurting for a LB and betts rides the pine still. Betts was marketable a few seasons ago, and now he is nothing more then an againg bench warmer. We need to get the most in return for Rogers. he may regress again and stink up the joint in coverage, but still not get any picks. Who kknows? We do know that he has only been dependable this past season and maybe the season before he got injured. Its not liek he has been gangbusters since we got him. Keeping him and paying him heavily is a risky gamble in my eyes, when looking at what we could potentially get for him.

[NewCliche21]

So because none our DB'd minus Hall are good at catching INT's, that excuses CR for dropping his? No, it sure doesn't. Par for the course is the weakest excuse for keeping a player... ever. Par for the course or not, more turnovers in the form of picks is always something to strive for. CR not catching picks alone is not reason enough to move him. However, when you combine his "hands like feet" with the fact that he doesn't want to play here and has only been a productive corner in the league for two seasons, in conjunction for what we could get for him, it seems like a no brainer to move him. He doesn't want to be here. Also, Unhappy players make unhappy locker rooms. If we got a first round pick, then it would be worth it. If we got two seconds or a second or third rounder for him, it would be worth it.

If you are going to trade a player, you do it at their most marketable moment to get the most in return for that player. I remember when there was trade speculation of Betts and a pick for Vilma. In hindsight, that trade would have been great for us. Look at us now hurting for a LB and betts rides the pine still. Betts was marketable a few seasons ago, and now he is nothing more then an againg bench warmer. We need to get the most in return for Rogers. he may regress again and stink up the joint in coverage, but still not get any picks. Who kknows? We do know that he has only been dependable this past season and maybe the season before he got injured. Its not liek he has been gangbusters since we got him. Keeping him and paying him heavily is a risky gamble in my eyes, when looking at what we could potentially get for him.

Did he steal your lunch money or something? We're not going to get crap for him that would make the deal worthwhile, and he's a very good corner. Literally your only knock is that he doesn't get picks, and you leave open the possibility that he'll get worse (directly contrasting with his trajectory) and that he'll keep dropping picks, never giving even a glimmer of hope that he'll continue to excel and start making those catches.

Lots of Mini-Vinnys on this board.

[Smoot Point Really]

Give me a break.

Explain to me then what the turning point in the season was if prior to that moment we were 6-2 and ahead of the Pittsburgh Steelers? Maybe the blocked the punt? If Rogers had intercepted the ball we'd still have gone into half-time with a 13-10 lead even with the blocked punt.

Tell me... What was the turning point in the season if that wasn't it? If you don't think momentum matters, then tell me how a 9-7 team that we beat is in the Super Bowl? Tell me how the team we swept in our division made the NFC Championship game? Yes, we could've gone far... We had momentum at the beginning of the season and went 6-2... We lost momentum going into the bye week and the Carlos Rogers play (not to mention his 43-yard pass interference penalty) was the critical to the outcome of that game.

[NewCliche21]

Explain to me then what the turning point in the season was if prior to that moment we were 6-2 and ahead of the Pittsburgh Steelers? Maybe the blocked the punt? If Rogers had intercepted the ball we'd still have gone into half-time with a 13-10 lead even with the blocked punt.

Tell me... What was the turning point in the season if that wasn't it? If you don't think momentum matters, then tell me how a 9-7 team that we beat is in the Super Bowl? Tell me how the team we swept in our division made the NFC Championship game? Yes, we could've gone far... We had momentum at the beginning of the season and went 6-2... We lost momentum going into the bye week and the Carlos Rogers play (not to mention his 43-yard pass interference penalty) was the critical to the outcome of that game.

SPR, come on. This is seriously below you. How can you determine that ONE play costs us the season? EVERYONE has to step up on EVERY play. We had momentum and got exposed by the WINLESS Rams. One play doesn't make a season.

[Smoot Point Really]

directly contrasting with his trajectory

I'm not in the camp that says we need to trade him... HOWEVER, what makes you think his "trajectory" has been up? His best seasons was 2007... Last year, he was benched when we picked up a far better cornerback in DeAngelo Hall... A cornerback who can cover and can make the QB pay for mistakes (even in our defense that people seem to think is the reason Carlos Rogers drops interceptions that hit him in the hands). Last year, he wasn't all that spectacular... His season was quite average all around and got progressively worse after Hall joined the team and everyone saw what it's like to have a playmaker at CB.

BTW, you keep mentioning that if he had good hands he'd be a WR... You can't let yourself be convinced with this argument. You see Linebackers, Safeties, other cornerbacks making those plays... His own teammates (while supporting him) still shake their head in wonder at this guys beyond miserable hands. If hands were the only thing a WR needed, then Chris Doering would be HoF material and not selling Real Estate (or whatever now).

[Stew]

Did he steal your lunch money or something? We're not going to get crap for him that would make the deal worthwhile, and he's a very good corner. Literally your only knock is that he doesn't get picks, and you leave open the possibility that he'll get worse (directly contrasting with his trajectory) and that he'll keep dropping picks, never giving even a glimmer of hope that he'll continue to excel and start making those catches.

Lots of Mini-Vinnys on this board.

Riiight, so I should just blindly take him for his season of a little over average play right? And the fact that he might not want to play here means nothing to you. Not a mini Vinny, just playing devils advocate. Why all the hostility twords me? I didn't kick your dog so stop attacking people for their OPINION... after all we are all allowed to have one. Just because people don't agree with you they don't deserve to be called names (mini Vinny) and however else you take your bad mood out on others. Do you do this to your family members when they don't agree with you? You also contradict yourself. You say CR is a great corner, but then say we wont get anything in a trade for him.... So which is it? Great corners, even good corners garner lots of interest in trades. If Rogers is so good why would no one pony up in a trade for him? Him not being able to catch passes is only part of my knock on him. As I have said he has only played quality defense this past season and for part of the season before. Thats awesome, but Im not basing my opinion on just what he did for me last year.. I look at his whole body of work and made my opinion based on what I have seen. Do I think he played decently last year? Sure, but i don't see that as enough reason to sign him to a long term contract when we could possibly get a second rounder for a player that is unsatisfied in his current situation and may want out. So, no, no one pissed in my cornflakes, it appears you just don't like opinions that differ from yours.

[Smoot Point Really]

SPR, come on. This is seriously below you. How can you determine that ONE play costs us the season? EVERYONE has to step up on EVERY play. We had momentum and got exposed by the WINLESS Rams. One play doesn't make a season.

I never said 1 play cost us the season. I said it was the turning point. I hope I don't have to explain the difference again.

Anyway, you aren't answering the question. If THAT wasn't the turning point in the season, what was?