PlayAction Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Ok - everyone loves Joe Bugel. But, let's look at his position pragmatically. Zorn wanted to keep the Gibbs running game in place in year one for continuity. For next year it is time to convert from the Midwest Offense to the WCO. Is Bugel capable of teaching the OL new WCO running concepts? Is Bugel too wedded to his veteran players? Bugel cut his teeth on the power running game and obviously preferred to have Jansen play over Heyer. A Rookie OL may be more open to change and can be selected based upon their pass protection skills rather than run blocking ability. Will Bugel even want to return if his boys are cut or demoted? I'd love for Bugel to return if: 1) he can teach a running game better suited to the WCO, 2) he shows he's willing to allow rookies or at least younger players to become starters (rather than be on the practice squad to be picked up by other teams). Note that prior to Bugel the Skins had their third round OG pick start in year 1. How much of the blame for the OL performance falls on Bugel? Did he tell Zorn and Vinny that they really need new talent for the OL or did he tell them that the Skins could get the job done with existing talent? I suspect the latter. What do you think Bugel will want to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panel Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Keep him here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePreciating Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Bugel took one of the worst offensive lines in football and got top-tier caliber production out of them, for at least half the season. Last night, with a washed-up crusty vet at RT and a 2nd year undrafted college backup, we successfully held off a top defense, and successfully ran the ball. This line isn't talented enough to beat the Giants line or the Steelers line, but that's because of lack of physical ability. The coaching is one of the strong suits of our line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Exactly who could have been cut this year without it being a severe cap hit? Jansen was going to be here this year no matter what. And unfortunately I don't see us replacing Rabach this year and do we have a young replacement for Thomas? Do we move Samuels to Right Tackle or left guard if he cant handle the speedrusher when he comes back from the injury given his age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Keep him. I agree that we need to adapt to a more WCO running scheme next year, but he can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch_Lives59 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 time to move on, the game has passed him...^^^ 122 yards rushing is not considered successful since the Giants had a backup RB run for 215 yards last night. Everyone needs to go, start over from scratch.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief skin Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 The way he coached this line he deserves and earned the right to stay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUPA Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 how bout giving him some good players to coach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Bugel will be here if he wants to be. If he doesn't, I wouldn't blame him, but I'd love to see him get a shot at a "hybrid" line of solid guys and some younger talent (particularly at C and RT). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veretax Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 I tell you what Heyer looked like a beast on the left side the way he blocked a few of Philly's blitz's. Maybe he just plays better on that side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasthunder Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 While he has done a great job with what he has to work with, its time for him to retire. He looks tired, I cant imagine he will have the energy or the ambition to work with new, RAW prospects. If we are going to bring in some young, new talent then we need a new coach that will be with them for at least 4-5 years. They need to seriously look at getting Russ Grimm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruising270 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Maybe I'm ignorant but I'm pretty sure WCO only refers to the passing game. I know west coast offenses will use dink and dunk passing to gain 5 or so yards which can be used to move the ball like a run, look at Philly. Also Zorn has already told us people missunderstood him and he only kept the lingo the same for our run game, not the playbook. This way players only had to learn new terms for the passing game only. Please correct me if I'm wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 I think Bugel can coach whatever they need him to coach. I think it's crazy to think he somehow can't coach a WCO blocking scheme. Now, that being said, I always thought it was weird that when they got Portis, they insisted on sticking to the power running game scheme. Portis loses a full yard per carry off his average since he’s been a Redskin. Never got why they wanted to keep 4 yards per carry rather than 5. I woulda saw whatever it was Denver was doing in their running game and copied it lock, stock, and barrel. But that goes for every team really, it's supposed to be a copycat league. Get some guys in there that can block it and watch the yards pile up. I know they kept saying they were “incorporating” more zone blocking schemes, but Portis still has had to grind out yards for the most part since he’s been here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Just about every west coast offense has a different running scheme. Bugle should stay as long as he wants to and continues to do a good job. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 I figure Buges is done. Bugel should stay only if Jim Zorn wants him too. Jim Zorn should be able to pick his entire staff on offense and defense. If Jim would like someone else as OL coach then that is Jim's right. My gut says Buges retires. He came back to help Gibbs and stayed on to help the rookie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmiJo Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 how bout giving him some good players to coach? That answer is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Is Bugel too wedded to his veteran players? Bugel cut his teeth on the power running game and obviously preferred to have Jansen play over Heyer. A Rookie OL may be more open to change and can be selected based upon their pass protection skills rather than run blocking ability. Actually, it was probably Zorn's call to keep Jansen in, mostly because Jansen was the better run blocker and Zorn knows what the strength of the offense was. Bugel is a big fan of both Jansen and Heyer. How much of the blame for the OL performance falls on Bugel? Did he tell Zorn and Vinny that they really need new talent for the OL or did he tell them that the Skins could get the job done with existing talent? I suspect the latter. I think there was a lot of thought by a lot of people inside and outside the organization that we were satisfied with the line as is going into the season, with Rinehart drafted to eventually take over for Kendall. As said above, Bugel is a big reason for how successful our line has been in recent years. I remember how the line played before and after Bugel arrived here. What do you think Bugel will want to do? Personally, I think Buges will be back. It will be up to the FO to draft OL for him to coach up. I don't think he will take it personnally, particuarly since that it isn't likely that any of the starters (except maybe Kendall) won't be here next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewagen Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Time for him to enjoy the rest of his life and retire to some golf course or fishing lake. I love Buges, but he has done all he can, and it's time to perhaps try to lure Russ Grimm away from Az. Joe Bugel needs to take a hint from Joe Gibbs, and spend the rest of his time with family. The loss of his daughter was HUGE this year, and I think he just needs to step away from the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuraitengai Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 time to move on, the game has passed him...^^^ 122 yards rushing is not considered successful since the Giants had a backup RB run for 215 yards last night. Everyone needs to go, start over from scratch..your pulling out a stat as backup when said stat is something that RARELY happens. how many times does a starting back go for 200+, much less a backup.now if 200 yard games were commonplace, then i wouldnt have a problem with that example. 122 yards may not be a lot, but 122 would be good for 10th place on season average. the jets are 9th for the season with 128 yards per game, and the raiders are 10th with 119 yards per game. but ill give you that is lower than our season average since we are 8th with 131 yards per game. so for offense, thats not really that bad. but then look at who is was against. the eagles are 5th in the league in yards rushing allowed. 92 yards per game. so putting up 122 on them isnt bad since it is 30 yards more than theyve been allowing for the season. thats what? 30% or so more than their average. and the first time we played them, we put up 200 yards on them when they were only allowing 53 or 73 a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Man Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 how bout giving him some good players to coach? That's what's up. ^^^ ...nice shoes by the way. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljeasel Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 your pulling out a stat as backup when said stat is something that RARELY happens. how many times does a starting back go for 200+, much less a backup.now if 200 yard games were commonplace, then i wouldnt have a problem with that example. 122 yards may not be a lot, but 122 would be good for 10th place on season average. the jets are 9th for the season with 128 yards per game, and the raiders are 10th with 119 yards per game. but ill give you that is lower than our season average since we are 8th with 131 yards per game. so for offense, thats not really that bad. but then look at who is was against. the eagles are 5th in the league in yards rushing allowed. 92 yards per game. so putting up 122 on them isnt bad since it is 30 yards more than theyve been allowing for the season. thats what? 30% or so more than their average. and the first time we played them, we put up 200 yards on them when they were only allowing 53 or 73 a game. Yeah, Im with you. Get Buges some monsters to work with. No more Ryback and Jansen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD Riggo Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Bugel ISN'T the problem! When we were 6-2, Buges was getting everything he could out of an old, oft-injured line. If Vincent would occasionally sign an "unsexy" lineman instead of the latest receiver who will do nothing but sit on the bench, we wouldn't HAVE to hold the O-line together with toothpicks and spit! I'm sure that Buges would LOVE to have, just like any other line coach, a couple of new Ferrari's to tune and take out to drive. Anyone who thinks Buges is the problem just doesn't know much about football! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerbee99 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 IMHO I hope he retires and moves on, we need fresh young hungry faces , however he is like Joe Paterno, we cant fire him, he will leave on his own accord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 No way do we ever kick Buges out on the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD Riggo Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 While he has done a great job with what he has to work with, its time for him to retire. He looks tired, I cant imagine he will have the energy or the ambition to work with new, RAW prospects.If we are going to bring in some young, new talent then we need a new coach that will be with them for at least 4-5 years. They need to seriously look at getting Russ Grimm. He's had a pretty rough year, with his daughter's long illness and her passing. Give him a break. Still, he had the drive and ambition to work with this troubled line. As I said before .. if for the first time in WHAT? .. ten years? .. we would actually draft a young lineman or two (BOTH lines), he would have something to work with for a change! Heyer was a fluke, and he will be a good prospect to work with, but the rest of both lines are getting too old to stave off the opponents any longer. NFL teamshave proven time and again that you build your lines through the draft and NOT through free agency. Sure .. you can pick up or piece or two here and there, but to get a GOOD, youn, long term line you HAVE to get them largely though the draft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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