Cerato needs to be held accountable

[turbodiesel#44]

I have bashed Vinny plenty on this board and haven't been exactly thrilled with our draft since April, but should give credit where due. Vinny likely had little input from Zorn for the draft because Zorn did not know what we had on the team as far as ability to execute his offense or depth. And Zorn was busy getting his own staff set up. Hopefully next year he will help guide Vinny. But all of Vinny's other acquisitions have been very low risk for the talent potential we have received. That's a good thing.

[NavyDave]

Darn it, I lost my don't post stupid threads gif for clueless Maddenites aka fairweather fans who think after sleeping in a Holiday Inn and watching ESPN highlights makes them a GM

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Darn it, I lost my don't post stupid threads gif for clueless Maddenites aka fairweather fans who think after sleeping in a Holiday Inn and watching ESPN highlights makes them a GM

:rotflmao:

[eljeasel]

Smoot gets winded, we put Torrance in and lose a game on one pass. I'm not making this up. Smoot should be able to get in shape, or get replaced. Looks like maybe he has been with Hall. A rookie should show up to camp in shape. A UDFA should show up in shape. Kelly had an excuse, Thomas did not.

Was that due to Smoot getting winded because he was out of shape? Please let me know how you could possibly know that. Neither of them showed up to camp in shape. How could a rookie possibly have shown up to camp underestimating how vigorous the fitness test would be and how could anyone especially after relying so heavily on their physical talents in college overestimate their physical abilities. Sounds like such a rookie mistake.

Horton was better than Moore when we drafted them. The FO obviously thought Moore was better player available taking him so far ahead of Horton. Is that hard to see?

A lot of FOs tohught their players were better than Horton. So clearly they all made bad picks. NO ONE thought Horton would be this good. But I totally see how we should fault our FO for picking him a whole round after we picked Moore. Yeah, Im missing how this is a bad thing. Scouting is a crap shoot and so is drafting. There were 247 picks before Horton. By your logic, every pick that isnt as good as Horton should show the utter ineptitude of every team's FO that passed on him INCLUDING the Redskins for picking him so late. My bad. How could I not see that.

[Cpt.Chaos47]

I'm sorry, but I feel if you have a rookie starting at any position its because you have a shortcoming at that position. We had a shortcoming at Safety so Chris Horton stepped in and played well. Receivers rarely produce their rookie years. Calvin Johnson was one most talented receivers to ever come out of college and he didn't have a lights out rookie year. No way Thomas or Kelly was ever going to start over Moss or Randle El. I think Chad Rhinehart will be a beast when we finally need him to step in, he played well in preseason.

[turbodiesel#44]

How could I not see that.

There will always be an element of luck in the draft. I want us to roll the dice on a player we can use if he works out, not somebody to sit the bench. Zorn thinks Thomas is too stupid to play yet. Did anybody sit down and talk football with this guy, or did he have a brain injury before camp? How about Kelly's physical? How's the knee son? Fine coach, let's talk contract...I'm not even going to talk about drafting a punter. Fail. Some posters are showing how a few NFL WRs had less than stellar rookie years, but they had numbers that eclipsed our guys, and were mostly able to practice, play some and improve themselves some for their sophmore year. How is Kelly doing with that? Wher is Fred Davis? And how can we make Thomas smarter than college did?

[bulldog]

a LOT of Beathard's drafts looked like this that first season with one or two players standing out (Horton) and the rest being question marks.

that's the nature of things when you draft one player in Thomas that is a natural athlete but an unsophisticated football player and another in Kelly that is an experienced football player but physically unable to perform.

so, what if Kelly comes back next year and catches 60 balls? what if Rinehart ends up starting at left guard for Pete Kendall down the road?

is the draft still a failure?

you have to give it time.

[eljeasel]

There will always be an element of luck in the draft. I want us to roll the dice on a player we can use if he works out, not somebody to sit the bench. Zorn thinks Thomas is too stupid to play yet. Did anybody sit down and talk football with this guy, or did he have a brain injury before camp? How about Kelly's physical? How's the knee son? Fine coach, let's talk contract...I'm not even going to talk about drafting a punter. Fail. Some posters are showing how a few NFL WRs had less than stellar rookie years, but they had numbers that eclipsed our guys, and were mostly able to practice, play some and improve themselves some for their sophmore year. How is Kelly doing with that? Wher is Fred Davis? And how can we make Thomas smarter than college did?

Please find me a recent Zorn quote that indicates anything about Thomas's intelligence. Hyperbole. Everyone knew he was going to be raw, including the FO. Thats even what they were saying when they drafted him.

They flew Campbell out to throw with Kelly and liked the chemistry there. But wait, thats somehow poor scouting. They knew the risks of his knee and still picked him. Even when he got scoped earlier this year, Dr. Andrews said the knee cleaned up fine and he will recover.

Our punting game stunk. So we got extra 6th round draft picks and pulled the trigger on the best punting prospect in a decade. Yeah, awful choice. Cause you are going to find Hortons all the time that late in the draft.

Rookie wideouts eclipsing our guys?

Santana Moss - 5 games, 2 catches, 40 yards. There you go. Incredible production early. Didnt get hurt. AND was able to practice his rookie season. I smell fail.

Rod Smith - 16 games, 6 catches, 152 yards - Man, hes light years ahead of our guys his rookie season

Hines Ward had 15 catches, Isaac Bruce had 21 catches and missed 4 games, Donald Driver had 6 catches and missed 10 games.

The Fred Davis pick is the only pick you can really have issue with. Even then, he was the best TE prospect in the draft and if you want to improve the RZ game you can use multi tight end sets like we are using. As he continues to grow in the league, look for him to replace Yoder (who is 30 and has a bad knee) and contribute. Wait but contributions are only statistical and he doesnt have big rookie stats... But contributions arent statistical only, esp from the TE position. Him and Cooley have both stepped their blocking game up and are directly responsible along with the line and Sellers for improving this run attack.

The one thing receivers get better at as they get more experienced is running routes. What Zorn keeps mentioning is not Thomas's intelligence level, but that he doesnt run sharp routes by NFL standards. This is also why he picked up those PIs. So what can we do to help him run sharper routes? Time, practice, hard work. Which is what every single one of these rookies is doing. Even the often injured Kelly impresses coaches when hes able to go in practice.

You seem to misunderstand what the draft is for. You draft for the future. Other than that, there really arent any rules. Your higher picks you would like to see them contribute early but that isnt the mark of a good pick. You dont judge nor can you accurately judge how a draft will turn out 9 games in. Next year Horton could wash out and Tryon could become the most improved player on the team. But wait, patience isnt cool now.

[texasthunder]

Please find me a recent Zorn quote that indicates anything about Thomas's intelligence. Hyperbole. Everyone knew he was going to be raw, including the FO. Thats even what they were saying when they drafted him.

They flew Campbell out to throw with Kelly and liked the chemistry there. But wait, thats somehow poor scouting. They knew the risks of his knee and still picked him. Even when he got scoped earlier this year, Dr. Andrews said the knee cleaned up fine and he will recover.

Our punting game stunk. So we got extra 6th round draft picks and pulled the trigger on the best punting prospect in a decade. Yeah, awful choice. Cause you are going to find Hortons all the time that late in the draft.

Rookie wideouts eclipsing our guys?

Santana Moss - 5 games, 2 catches, 40 yards. There you go. Incredible production early. Didnt get hurt. AND was able to practice his rookie season. I smell fail.

Rod Smith - 16 games, 6 catches, 152 yards - Man, hes light years ahead of our guys his rookie season

Hines Ward had 15 catches, Isaac Bruce had 21 catches and missed 4 games, Donald Driver had 6 catches and missed 10 games.

The Fred Davis pick is the only pick you can really have issue with. Even then, he was the best TE prospect in the draft and if you want to improve the RZ game you can use multi tight end sets like we are using. As he continues to grow in the league, look for him to replace Yoder (who is 30 and has a bad knee) and contribute. Wait but contributions are only statistical and he doesnt have big rookie stats... But contributions arent statistical only, esp from the TE position. Him and Cooley have both stepped their blocking game up and are directly responsible along with the line and Sellers for improving this run attack.

The one thing receivers get better at as they get more experienced is running routes. What Zorn keeps mentioning is not Thomas's intelligence level, but that he doesnt run sharp routes by NFL standards. This is also why he picked up those PIs. So what can we do to help him run sharper routes? Time, practice, hard work. Which is what every single one of these rookies is doing. Even the often injured Kelly impresses coaches when hes able to go in practice.

You seem to misunderstand what the draft is for. You draft for the future. Other than that, there really arent any rules. Your higher picks you would like to see them contribute early but that isnt the mark of a good pick. You dont judge nor can you accurately judge how a draft will turn out 9 games in. Next year Horton could wash out and Tryon could become the most improved player on the team. But wait, patience isnt cool now.

Impressive. Seriously, this is a great post.

[da#1skinsfan]

DUDE. Its been half a season. GET A GRIP!!!!!!

[da#1skinsfan]

Please find me a recent Zorn quote that indicates anything about Thomas's intelligence. Hyperbole. Everyone knew he was going to be raw, including the FO. Thats even what they were saying when they drafted him.

They flew Campbell out to throw with Kelly and liked the chemistry there. But wait, thats somehow poor scouting. They knew the risks of his knee and still picked him. Even when he got scoped earlier this year, Dr. Andrews said the knee cleaned up fine and he will recover.

Our punting game stunk. So we got extra 6th round draft picks and pulled the trigger on the best punting prospect in a decade. Yeah, awful choice. Cause you are going to find Hortons all the time that late in the draft.

Rookie wideouts eclipsing our guys?

Santana Moss - 5 games, 2 catches, 40 yards. There you go. Incredible production early. Didnt get hurt. AND was able to practice his rookie season. I smell fail.

Rod Smith - 16 games, 6 catches, 152 yards - Man, hes light years ahead of our guys his rookie season

Hines Ward had 15 catches, Isaac Bruce had 21 catches and missed 4 games, Donald Driver had 6 catches and missed 10 games.

The Fred Davis pick is the only pick you can really have issue with. Even then, he was the best TE prospect in the draft and if you want to improve the RZ game you can use multi tight end sets like we are using. As he continues to grow in the league, look for him to replace Yoder (who is 30 and has a bad knee) and contribute. Wait but contributions are only statistical and he doesnt have big rookie stats... But contributions arent statistical only, esp from the TE position. Him and Cooley have both stepped their blocking game up and are directly responsible along with the line and Sellers for improving this run attack.

The one thing receivers get better at as they get more experienced is running routes. What Zorn keeps mentioning is not Thomas's intelligence level, but that he doesnt run sharp routes by NFL standards. This is also why he picked up those PIs. So what can we do to help him run sharper routes? Time, practice, hard work. Which is what every single one of these rookies is doing. Even the often injured Kelly impresses coaches when hes able to go in practice.

You seem to misunderstand what the draft is for. You draft for the future. Other than that, there really arent any rules. Your higher picks you would like to see them contribute early but that isnt the mark of a good pick. You dont judge nor can you accurately judge how a draft will turn out 9 games in. Next year Horton could wash out and Tryon could become the most improved player on the team. But wait, patience isnt cool now.

/thread. lock it down. done. finito. killed. dead. buh bye. nuff said. no mo.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

a LOT of Beathard's drafts looked like this that first season with one or two players standing out (Horton) and the rest being question marks.

that's the nature of things when you draft one player in Thomas that is a natural athlete but an unsophisticated football player and another in Kelly that is an experienced football player but physically unable to perform.

so, what if Kelly comes back next year and catches 60 balls? what if Rinehart ends up starting at left guard for Pete Kendall down the road?

is the draft still a failure?

you have to give it time.

Put the logic away, you're scaring the kids lol...

[turbodiesel#44]

Please find me a recent Zorn quote that indicates anything about Thomas's intelligence. Hyperbole. Everyone knew he was going to be raw, including the FO. Thats even what they were saying when they drafted him.

Zorn has repeatedly said Thomas is not grasping the mental aspects of the game. He says that whenever he is asked about Thomas. Which is frequently.

They flew Campbell out to throw with Kelly and liked the chemistry there. But wait, thats somehow poor scouting. They knew the risks of his knee and still picked him. Even when he got scoped earlier this year, Dr. Andrews said the knee cleaned up fine and he will recover.

I hope he does. We need a big receiver like him. But he will be a year behind no matter what. And we might end his career forcing the issue.

Our punting game stunk. So we got extra 6th round draft picks and pulled the trigger on the best punting prospect in a decade. Yeah, awful choice. Cause you are going to find Hortons all the time that late in the draft.

We pulled the plug on a known average guy with no plan B except a rookie kicker. Upgrade a punter=good. Depend on a rookie kicker who couldn't beat out your average guy=bad

Rookie wideouts eclipsing our guys?

I was talking about the examples of poorly producing rookie WRs mentioned in this thread -

Steve Smith: 10 catches 154 yards

Chad Johnson: 28 catches 329 yards

Plaxico Burress: 22 catches 273 yards

Hines Ward: 15 catches 246 yards

Reggie Wayne: 27 catches 345 yards

TJ Houshmandzadeh: 21 catches 228 yards

At the current rate of production, DT might catch Smith. If he improves. Using the worse performing rookie wideouts who turned out decent as a baseline is not very smart anyway.

Santana Moss - 5 games, 2 catches, 40 yards. There you go. Incredible production early. Didnt get hurt. AND was able to practice his rookie season. I smell fail.

Moss was behind Chrebet, Curtis Martin, Coles, and 5 more guys who played better. Thomas is playing for Thrash's spot.

Rod Smith - 16 games, 6 catches, 152 yards - Man, hes light years ahead of our guys his rookie season

And Kelly has 6 yards. Assume he doubles that in the second half of the season, and Smith will have over 1200% more yards in his rook year. Right now it's about 2500% more.

Hines Ward had 15 catches, Isaac Bruce had 21 catches and missed 4 games, Donald Driver had 6 catches and missed 10 games.

Those guys got hurt playing for their teams. Our guy was hurt when we picked him. And still is.

The Fred Davis pick is the only pick you can really have issue with. Even then, he was the best TE prospect in the draft and if you want to improve the RZ game you can use multi tight end sets like we are using. As he continues to grow in the league, look for him to replace Yoder (who is 30 and has a bad knee) and contribute. Wait but contributions are only statistical and he doesnt have big rookie stats... But contributions arent statistical only, esp from the TE position. Him and Cooley have both stepped their blocking game up and are directly responsible along with the line and Sellers for improving this run attack.

Do tell, what has Davis done for us? I've seen a block or two and a reverse that looked like he was trying to throw a pass. It was for a loss. He has 1 catch for 6 yards. Cooley in training?

The one thing receivers get better at as they get more experienced is running routes. What Zorn keeps mentioning is not Thomas's intelligence level, but that he doesnt run sharp routes by NFL standards. This is also why he picked up those PIs. So what can we do to help him run sharper routes? Time, practice, hard work. Which is what every single one of these rookies is doing. Even the often injured Kelly impresses coaches when hes able to go in practice.

So you need a PHD to learn a pass route? I hope Kelly impresses me too. I'm not looking for allstar performance. Just a play or two.

You seem to misunderstand what the draft is for. You draft for the future. Other than that, there really arent any rules. Your higher picks you would like to see them contribute early but that isnt the mark of a good pick. You dont judge nor can you accurately judge how a draft will turn out 9 games in. Next year Horton could wash out and Tryon could become the most improved player on the team. But wait, patience isnt cool now.

The draft is to make your football team better. If anyone told you otherwise, they were lying. Contributing IS the mark of both a good pick AND a good player. Nobody expects our draft to be all-pro. I just want to see some of whatever Vinny saw when he drafted them. Just a peek.

[texasthunder]

The draft is to make your football team better. If anyone told you otherwise, they were lying. Contributing IS the mark of both a good pick AND a good player. Nobody expects our draft to be all-pro. I just want to see some of whatever Vinny saw when he drafted them. Just a peek.

Well your premise that the draft is to make the team better is contrary to what some other experts believe in. And to be fair, there is this same difference among GM's in the NFL. Neither is right, nor wrong, it's really just a matter of the philosophy you believe in. And it appears that Cerratos and yours are on different pages.

I remember Cerrato saying before the draft that based on the fact the team had most all of it starters coming back they would draft the BPA. And while the BPA theory doesnt fix immediate needs, he does provide for building depth.

[turbodiesel#44]

Well your premise that the draft is to make the team better is contrary to what some other experts believe in. And to be fair, there is this same difference among GM's in the NFL. Neither is right, nor wrong, it's really just a matter of the philosophy you believe in. And it appears that Cerratos and yours are on different pages.

I remember Cerrato saying before the draft that based on the fact the team had most all of it starters coming back they would draft the BPA. And while the BPA theory doesnt fix immediate needs, he does provide for building depth.

Every single GM in the NFL passed on our "first round" talent. There is no difference among GMs about that.

Except QB's, 1st rounders are mostly always expected to start in year 1, or at least see some significant playing time. One mans BPA is another's camp fodder. Vinny's track record here with receivers is abysmal. That's why he took 3 with our best picks. Shotgun approach. Still waiting for these guys to show something, anything, on the field.

[texasthunder]

Every single GM in the NFL passed on our "first round" talent. There is no difference among GMs about that.

And do you know why they passed ? Could it have been that some teams did not need 1st round recievers? That some teams had other pressing needs? Or that some GMs had their draft board with a different rating in regard to BPA's. Truth is, nobody but those GM's and the people surrounding them know for sure why they chose who they chose.

The rest of us are left to speculate. This still does not augment the idea that GM's can have a different philosophy in regards to drafting for need vs BPA.

Except QB's, 1st rounders are mostly always expected to start in year 1, or at least see some significant playing time. One mans BPA is another's camp fodder. Vinny's track record here with receivers is abysmal. That's why he took 3 with our best picks. Shotgun approach. Still waiting for these guys to show something, anything, on the field.

Again, you are speculating, because you didnt agree with the picks. Just like you didnt agree with the pick for a punter. Irregardless, you have your right to your opinion, weather you are right or wrong. But its just an opinion, and not fact.

[Doctorfro]

When have the skins had a successful draft? Oh yeah, we get a good player here or there but we never have a draft class that is worth much. What's new?

[tonyriggins]

You know it is common knowledge that the Redskins hasn't been able to judge 1st round wr talent. I give the new coach Zorn a pass, but Vinny and Snyder knew about our history at this position. It's been over 20 years since Bobby did it! But those recievers are so sexy. That is why this team needs a GM, somebody to say NO we can't draft two wr this round and we dont need another tightend. I dont care how tall or SHORT Moss is, he is was alot better than he has been given credit for! That 1st round draft pick should have went for something else! Never trade out of the 1st round.

On the bright side the season is going better than expected. While the offense isnt great it is still better than anything we have had since Norv Turner. Thomas and Kelly still may develop. Davis unless he is great or something bad happens to Cooley it dont matter anyway.

[TheLongshot]

Every single GM in the NFL passed on our "first round" talent. There is no difference among GMs about that.

Except QB's, 1st rounders are mostly always expected to start in year 1, or at least see some significant playing time. One mans BPA is another's camp fodder. Vinny's track record here with receivers is abysmal. That's why he took 3 with our best picks. Shotgun approach. Still waiting for these guys to show something, anything, on the field.

Actually, Vinny doesn't have much of a record at all in drafting WRs. The only ones he has drafted before this last draft were Taylor Jacobs, which was more of a Spurrier pick and Cliff Russell, who had the bad luck to be injured a lot.

Thomas is contributing a lot, actually. He's made some standout plays in special teams and he gets on the field a lot as a receiver. I know you want more, but this is really what I was expecting out of Thomas this year.

Jason

[turbodiesel#44]

Again, you are speculating, because you didnt agree with the picks. Just like you didnt agree with the pick for a punter. Irregardless, you have your right to your opinion, weather you are right or wrong. But its just an opinion, and not fact.

It's a fact that no other GM picked any of our 3 receiver types who are claimed to be first round talent. And it's a fact their production has been mostly non-existant to date. I'm not talking about poor numbers, I'm talking about nearly no numbers. I hope they develop, but they have not shown anything at all yet.

[SKINchiefer]

All of you fans wanting an immediate impact by our rookie WR's need to learn a little bit of patience, gah-****it. When we see the other top WR's impacting their team in big ways, we expect the same from ours but I say just wait. There is no way that DT and MK are busts. You have my word. I think Zorn isn't trying to show too much with Thomas, as well as the play calling. It almost feels like we have been watching the pre-season. It's like Zorn is saving a lot for the big games later on down the line.

[Dead Money]

moron.

once again, devin thomas is a long term project, known that forever. malcom is hurt, and fred davis has been getting more involved.

:notworthy:

Ji... just like Devin Thomas, you are a relative rookie here. I'm just sayin, member number 60k+ will take a little time to adjust. Why don't you go back and read some posts from around the draft and you'll see that most of the sane people around here don't expect much from rookie WRs and definitely don't expect Davis to be a factor unless something happens to Cooley during his first year.

There's a lot to learn for the draft class and our fanbase. Read more, post less.