So... was Fred Davis a wasted pick?

[Taylorfan2179]

USC offensive players are garbage in the nfl, minus carson palmer, and even he isnt looking so good. All you old timers dont even say marcus allen and oj, thats a long time ago. Reggie Bush, you have to be kidding me.

[turbodiesel#44]

All you old timers dont even say marcus allen and oj, thats a long time ago. Reggie Bush, you have to be kidding me.

They don't make slash runners like OJ no more. I mean acquit. They don't acquit them any more.

[Phat Hog]

It's just week 3 of his rookie season.

Even Sean Taylor didn't see much action until after the midway point of his rookie season in 2004.

Totally agree. Yet another chicken little thread...geeez

[Rudechain]

I know Davis is not going to be an upgrade to our WR corps, even if we lose Moss and ARE. We have current depth problems. Right now. Our OL is quite a bit older than Yoder, and they have missed SEVERAL entire seasons between them. Recently. All your arguments belong to other positions even harder.

I agree with you on the line but there was simply no value at where they picked. so do you overpay for a player that your reaching for?

I tend to believe that you have to look at this draft through a 3 year window and not a 3 week window. It's entirely to early to surmise if a draft pick was a waste. He's still on the team and still has a chance to produce.

Believe it or not, I would like to see additional youth on the lines, but not if the talent level is not commensurate with the draft position.

And I don't know where your getting me stating Davis as an upgrade to the wide receiver position. That's why they drafted Thomas and Kelly. They drafted Davis to upgrade the depth at tight end. :doh:

You obviously have your viewpoint and one I simply don't agree with. In my opinion, there was no value for the draft position at the offensive or defensive line positions. If you recall, in a press breifing, the team stated they had linemen targeted but they were taken just before they picked. ( most likely Merling). They took the next guy on their board.

I suspect this team will concentrate on the lines more in the next offseason. Like you, I am not privy to the inner workings or the thoughts in Redskins Park. We can both only form opinions based on incomplete knowledge of the situation. There was obviously something that kept the team from drafting a lineman in the second round. My guess is they felt the value was not there. It's that simple.

So to recap, and make sure you completely understand. Fred Davis was drafted with an eye towards the future. Not a few weeks into the season. Thomas and Kelly were drafted with an eye towards the future. Fred Davis was not drafted as wide receiver depth or upgrade, but his and Cooley's skill set does present an oppourtunity to move them to a slot position ( ie. motion) to create mismatches and provide targets for Campbell.

[Leonard Washington]

Hard to upstage Yoder when afterall he makes the most of his chances but his time will come.

I agree. Yoder is a MUCH MUCH MUCH better blocker than Cooley and I don't think Davis can say that. The fact that Yoder can block and has serviceable hands/route running makes him a deceptive target in the passing game.

[HogNose]

I am not sure why this thread was even created. How can Fred Davis be a wasted pick after game 3 of his rookie season? Huh?

[SkinsTerps26]

The Redskins will have the most potent offense with JC (26) Moss (29) ARE (29) Thomas (21) Kelley (21) Cooley (26) Davis (22) Portis (27) in the next few years

Hopefully Thomas and Kelley can become a top flight 1-2 punch, which moss and ARE being solid slot guys when they start pushing mid 30s. As long as Moss stays fast, they have the time to fit the roll of the Redskins top WR.

We have a YOUNG offense, and they look good.

Here's hoping

[SkinsSyco4Life]

Oh, come on guys. We all know Fred Davis was not a wasted pick.

He was and is a SLEEPER PICK!!

[PlayAction]

3 games into the season and you ask this question...yes that shows lack of patience. However, since none of the three 2nd round picks has made any contribution I can understand the impatience. We tend to expect that at least one highly drafted rookie will contribute.

Keep in mind that the only draft pick that has had any impact so far is the 7th rounder with 3 turnovers in one game. Surprise!!!

[Saqs]

3 games into the season and you ask this question...yes that shows lack of patience. However, since none of the three 2nd round picks has made any contribution I can understand the impatience. We tend to expect that at least one highly drafted rookie will contribute.

Keep in mind that the only draft pick that has had any impact so far is the 7th rounder with 3 turnovers in one game. Surprise!!!

Again, the thread was much less about his current contribution and more about his future role with the team considering: A) he was a high pick, our current TE situation and C) how little we've heard about him from both the team and the media.

[turbodiesel#44]

I agree with you on the line but there was simply no value at where they picked. so do you overpay for a player that your reaching for?

We chose to move down where we picked. That is not an excuse.

I tend to believe that you have to look at this draft through a 3 year window and not a 3 week window. It's entirely to early to surmise if a draft pick was a waste. He's still on the team and still has a chance to produce.

With exception of QB, you should be able to tell if your pick is going to stick after 1 year. Or you should be in a different profession. But mainly, this is not a matter of judging Davis. I like him so far. We have far greater needs on this team than TE depth. Why can't you understand that? That has been my point all along. Maybe you should re-read my posts. I don't have any problem at all with Davis or his skills.

Believe it or not, I would like to see additional youth on the lines, but not if the talent level is not commensurate with the draft position.

By your reasoning, you need 3 years to make that statement.

And I don't know where your getting me stating Davis as an upgrade to the wide receiver position. That's why they drafted Thomas and Kelly. They drafted Davis to upgrade the depth at tight end. :doh:

That's my whole point, we didn't NEED an upgrade at TE. We have serious depth problems elsewhere.

You obviously have your viewpoint and one I simply don't agree with. In my opinion, there was no value for the draft position at the offensive or defensive line positions. If you recall, in a press breifing, the team stated they had linemen targeted but they were taken just before they picked. ( most likely Merling). They took the next guy on their board.

OK, so we'll put Davis at CB if we have 2 guys out. Look at the injury histories there. And Springs age. Or maybe we can just ask opposing teams not to pass on us. LB depth is another real need.

I suspect this team will concentrate on the lines more in the next offseason. Like you, I am not privy to the inner workings or the thoughts in Redskins Park. We can both only form opinions based on incomplete knowledge of the situation. There was obviously something that kept the team from drafting a lineman in the second round. My guess is they felt the value was not there. It's that simple.

How many years is it going to take to replace our lines? Look at the ages there. Look at injury history. We should have started 2 years ago at least. We have the exact same line Gibbs started with except Heyer. The value wasn't there? What kind of excuse is that going to be? It seems we learned nothing from the the OL problems last year.

So to recap, and make sure you completely understand. Fred Davis was drafted with an eye towards the future. Not a few weeks into the season. Thomas and Kelly were drafted with an eye towards the future. Fred Davis was not drafted as wide receiver depth or upgrade, but his and Cooley's skill set does present an oppourtunity to move them to a slot position ( ie. motion) to create mismatches and provide targets for Campbell.

I know why the team drafted Davis. The eye for the future should be towards moving ARE back into one slot. Cooley can play the other if we really need 2. How many slots can you have? Do you think you can replace your OL in just a year or 2? And we need OL, DL, CB and LB depth far more than TE depth. I do have some inside info on Zorn's system. Every single formation, present and future, utilizes a Center, 2 Guards and 2 Tackles. Don't tell anybody where you heard that.

[pjfootballer]

I don't know what it is with TD#44 other than he really hates our draft, from Devin Thomas all the way down to Rob Jackson. Well, put your resume in to Dan and see what happens. Now, I do see what you are saying about ignoring the lines. But here is what we have so far:

O-Line Backups and future

Rhinehart (3rd rd), Crummey (PS- UDFA with 2nd rd talent), K. Brown ( UDFA IR- Wink, wink- a project, but could be another Joe Jacoby), Geisinger (UDFA on active roster backing up Rabach) and Stephon Heyer (UDFA currently our starting RT, who had never played RT in his life up until last year).

So we have spent a WHOLE 3rd round pick on a future line of Heyer (LT), Brown (RG), Geisinger ©, Crummey (RG) and Rhinehart (RT). Looks pretty good to me and if we use some of the picks next year (we are due some comp. picks in addition to the 4 we have left) on OL, we'll be in pretty good shape for the future. We are missing our 2nd, 4th and 7th. We could trade down from the first and recoup the pick with two 2nds and the comp picks could make up for the 4th and 7th. We got a 3rd round comp pick (Rhinehart) for Dockery leaving. We lost FA's and did not add any, so we will get some.

D-Line-

Carter- under 30, Monty- 3rd yr, Golsten- 3rd yr, Jackson- looked good in preseason, made roster (not bad for 7th rder), Buzbee (has potential if recovers from injury). So basically the only old guys starting on the D-line are Taylor and Griff. Add in Alexander to the list of young guys with Evans (Both can play DT or DE) and THEN we got Erasmus James from Minnesota for a conditional 7th who has 1st round talent.

We are really NOT in as bad a shape as some would think. If the guys on the O-line stay healthy, who's to say they can't play well into their 30's. Kendall is doing that now. In hindsight, giving up the 4th for him was worth it as he's now on schedule to play 32 games for us. Samuels, Thomas and Rabach still have a few years in them. Kendall is near the end as is Jansen, but Jansen isn't starting. Fabini has been a wonderful backup to have. He was a tackle his whole career and played guard for us.

Point is, stop panicking and at least take the time to study the big picture before jumping to conclusions.

[Aluadan]

I love how people have the foresight to judge a draft pick after 3 regular season games.

[Milkbone Jackson]

Just because guys like DeSean Jackson are starting right away does not mean that a rookie not starting in the first couple of games is a waste. Most rookies start because of injury and personnel moves. Very few are so good that they can start right away.

[Rudechain]

I don't know what it is with TD#44 other than he really hates our draft, from Devin Thomas all the way down to Rob Jackson. Well, put your resume in to Dan and see what happens. Now, I do see what you are saying about ignoring the lines. But here is what we have so far:

O-Line Backups and future

Rhinehart (3rd rd), Crummey (PS- UDFA with 2nd rd talent), K. Brown ( UDFA IR- Wink, wink- a project, but could be another Joe Jacoby), Geisinger (UDFA on active roster backing up Rabach) and Stephon Heyer (UDFA currently our starting RT, who had never played RT in his life up until last year).

So we have spent a WHOLE 3rd round pick on a future line of Heyer (LT), Brown (RG), Geisinger ©, Crummey (RG) and Rhinehart (RT). Looks pretty good to me and if we use some of the picks next year (we are due some comp. picks in addition to the 4 we have left) on OL, we'll be in pretty good shape for the future. We are missing our 2nd, 4th and 7th. We could trade down from the first and recoup the pick with two 2nds and the comp picks could make up for the 4th and 7th. We got a 3rd round comp pick (Rhinehart) for Dockery leaving. We lost FA's and did not add any, so we will get some.

D-Line-

Carter- under 30, Monty- 3rd yr, Golsten- 3rd yr, Jackson- looked good in preseason, made roster (not bad for 7th rder), Buzbee (has potential if recovers from injury). So basically the only old guys starting on the D-line are Taylor and Griff. Add in Alexander to the list of young guys with Evans (Both can play DT or DE) and THEN we got Erasmus James from Minnesota for a conditional 7th who has 1st round talent.

We are really NOT in as bad a shape as some would think. If the guys on the O-line stay healthy, who's to say they can't play well into their 30's. Kendall is doing that now. In hindsight, giving up the 4th for him was worth it as he's now on schedule to play 32 games for us. Samuels, Thomas and Rabach still have a few years in them. Kendall is near the end as is Jansen, but Jansen isn't starting. Fabini has been a wonderful backup to have. He was a tackle his whole career and played guard for us.

Point is, stop panicking and at least take the time to study the big picture before jumping to conclusions.

A voice of reason. Thank you. :applause:

I see youth on this team and I see some spots that are aging. IMO the team drafted for the future this past draft. I dont' know where TD44 gets putting Davis in as a corner now. ( I surmise he's being coy but honestly I am through with the inane comments)

To complain about drafting a tight end to give more weapons is very strange in my book. If I recall correctly, the prospect taken with our first round pick was Sam Baker and it was said to be a reach. While I would like to see more blue chip prospects on the line, that would mean this team has a terrible season and has a high draft pick. If you were to ask me, they did a pretty good job during draft day by trading back and getting more picks. The team used those picks on Receiver, Tight end, Receiver, Guard. Not to bad a first day haul if you ask me.

I really think this straw man argument is pointless. complaining about the picks, and when the retort is there was no value, the reply is well they traded back. As much as I liked Merling, I don't believe he was first round talent.

But I am through with TD44's argument. He and I simply will disagree on this. It's quite obvious he was not happy with the draft while I thought it was not very bad.

[turbodiesel#44]

I don't know what it is with TD#44 other than he really hates our draft, from Devin Thomas all the way down to Rob Jackson. Well, put your resume in to Dan and see what happens. Now, I do see what you are saying about ignoring the lines. But here is what we have so far:

Kindly quote my comments on Thomas or Jackson. You are either delusional or drunk, because I haven't said anything negative about either. I also haven't said anything negative about Davis. You are trying to change the pretense of my argument, which is questioning the prudence of picking a TE with such a high pick when we have a pro bowl starter and significant depth at the position. If the best you can do is try to distort my position to bolster your own argument, it's a pretty weak stance you got there.

[pjfootballer]

Kindly quote my comments on Thomas or Jackson. You are either delusional or drunk, because I haven't said anything negative about either. I also haven't said anything negative about Davis. You are trying to change the pretense of my argument, which is questioning the prudence of picking a TE with such a high pick when we have a pro bowl starter and significant depth at the position. If the best you can do is try to distort my position to bolster your own argument, it's a pretty weak stance you got there.

Well, you pretty much chopped my whole post off to suit your argument. You hate the Durant Brooks pick, you hate the Fred Davis pick, so that's almost 2 through 7. I'll give you Rob Jackson back. But I think I put out a pretty good argument that you said we ignored the lines and took a TE with the #48 pick. Read the rest of my post and maybe you will understand that we are not as bad off as you think we are. All 10 draft picks made the team. I think that's pretty good. I like you would have loved to have taken the next Grimm/May/Jacoby with those 3 picks, but that doesn't always happen. Acutally the only pick that upset me at first was the Kelly pick after taking Thomas in the same round, but I sat back an analyzed what they plan was and I'm satisfied with it. That's all we're asking you to do. It's after 5. Quitting time. Gotta go home.

[turbodiesel#44]

Well, you pretty much chopped my whole post off to suit your argument. You hate the Durant Brooks pick, you hate the Fred Davis pick, so that's almost 2 through 7. I'll give you Rob Jackson back. But I think I put out a pretty good argument that you said we ignored the lines and took a TE with the #48 pick. Read the rest of my post and maybe you will understand that we are not as bad off as you think we are. All 10 draft picks made the team. I think that's pretty good. I like you would have loved to have taken the next Grimm/May/Jacoby with those 3 picks, but that doesn't always happen. Acutally the only pick that upset me at first was the Kelly pick after taking Thomas in the same round, but I sat back an analyzed what they plan was and I'm satisfied with it. That's all we're asking you to do. It's after 5. Quitting time. Gotta go home.

PJ's wife: Did you gas up the car? I have to take the baby to the doctor.

PJ: No, but I got these awesome new tires! They are awesome!

PJ's wife: But the old tires were the best you can buy, and plenty good. And the spare is good too.

PJ: But I got an awesome deal, and they were out of Hi-octane.

PJ's wife: How many tires can we use at once?

PJ: Don't worry, I kept the old set. They are in the garage. We can swap them whenever we want. The spare didn't exactly match anyway.

PJ's wife: But I have to take the baby to the doctor, and we are getting low on fuel.

PJ: YOU HATE THE CAR, DON'T YOU! You hate the new tires. You hate the steering wheel and transmission too!

PJ's wife: No, I just have to get the baby to the doctor.

PJ: These new tires are AWESOME!

[Shilsu]

PJ's wife: Did you gas up the car? I have to take the baby to the doctor.

PJ: No, but I got these awesome new tires! They are awesome!

PJ's wife: But the old tires were the best you can buy, and plenty good. And the spare is good too.

PJ: But I got an awesome deal, and they were out of Hi-octane.

PJ's wife: How many tires can we use at once?

PJ: Don't worry, I kept the old set. They are in the garage. We can swap them whenever we want. The spare didn't exactly match anyway.

PJ's wife: But I have to take the baby to the doctor, and we are getting low on fuel.

PJ: YOU HATE THE CAR, DON'T YOU! You hate the new tires. You hate the steering wheel and transmission too!

PJ's wife: No, I just have to get the baby to the doctor.

PJ: These new tires are AWESOME!

:applause: That pretty much sums up my thoughts on some of the weird ass rationalizations. Here's another one.

Person A: This is make or break for Jason Campbell. If he doesn't perform this year, it's time to look for a new QB.

Person B: HE'S ONLY HAD 20 STARTS. HE NEEDS 48 STARTS. THIS IS A NEW SYSTEM. WE NEED TO GIVE HIM NEXT YEAR ALSO.

*After three games, Jason Campbell's stats are very nice.*

Person B: WHERE ARE ALL THE HATERS NOW? I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU, PERSON A.

I mean seriously... Wtf...

[ouvan59]

But I just felt that we needed to address other needs (o-line, d-line, CB, LB, etc.) as opposed to a 3rd string TE. But, Davis is a Redskin, and therefore I will cheer for him and I hope he excels wearing the B&G

So you are advocating drafting solely based on need and not on the Best Player Available? And Davis was not drafted to be a 3rd string TE. He was drafted to add versatility to the offense down the line and ensure that we aren't left high and dry if Cooley goes down. And for all we know Chad Rinehart was the highest rated lineman on the Redskins' board. If there were several lineman that the Skins liked equally but they had Davis rated higher sometimes it makes sense to take the TE and then grab whoever is left with your next pick. This is all speculation and conjecture on my part but it is on yours and everyone elses in this thread as well. We have no idea how highly the Skins rated any players but time will tell if Davis is a wasted pick. But I'll tell you one thing barring an unusual event we won't know for quite some time.

[ouvan59]

D-Line-

Carter- under 30, Monty- 3rd yr, Golsten- 3rd yr, Jackson- looked good in preseason, made roster (not bad for 7th rder), Buzbee (has potential if recovers from injury). So basically the only old guys starting on the D-line are Taylor and Griff. Add in Alexander to the list of young guys with Evans (Both can play DT or DE) and THEN we got Erasmus James from Minnesota for a conditional 7th who has 1st round talent.

Add Chris Wilson to the equation and we've got a boatload of young guys along both lines for the coaching staff to develop. Some of them are already starting. But guess where we'd be thin if we hadn't drafted Davis?

I've posted this many times but we've currently got 29 players on the roster who are just entering their 4th year in the league or less. That doesn't include practice squad. That's more than half the team. This is the plan that most people on here have been begging for for years but most people that wanted it don't have the patience for it to develop.

[Ghost of]

Wait. So Thomas has one game, two offensive PI's and he's the next big thing.

But Kelly has been on the shelf and Davis, who was the only one of the three receivers/TE that were drafted that looked good in the preseason is a wasted pick?

I agree with you.

But as a little jab at your boys, let's hope Fred makes up for Dominique "what an awesome TE prospect" Byrd.

[Oldskool]

I agree with you.

But as a little jab at your boys, let's hope Fred makes up for Dominique "what an awesome TE prospect" Byrd.

Byrd was a thug at SC and a thug in the NFL.. He doesn't have half the talent or character that Davis has.

This thread has become a joke and TD along with it. Sorry bro, but your arguments are weak. Again, go back and tell me who you would have drafted in the 2nd round or even in the 1st with your one pick?

We got the better of the deal by taking 3 pass catchers in a round that was devoid of much talent in other needed positions. I'm sure glad you aren't pulling Vincenzo's strings.

[Shilsu]

The bigger joke is the fact that some people will argue that having a capable 2nd/3rd string TE is more important than having a capable 2nd/3rd string OL/DL. Kind of reminds me of people rationalizing why spending draft picks on TJ Duckett was important (and then conveniently attributing everything to hindsight later) or why drafting Manuel White and Nemo Broughton instead of linemen was the right move. Oddly enough, people then were also arguing that White and Broughton were needed to provide depth at the H-Back position behind Cooley. Well, those draft picks sure did help us.

[turbodiesel#44]

So you are advocating drafting solely based on need and not on the Best Player Available?

To my knowledge, no one here is advocating ignoring a players talent level. You have to balance things. Much like you have to balance your team. We are topheavy at TE, which is fine, but we have serious depth issues at CB, OL, LB & DL.

The justification is that Zorn is going to start, sometime in the future, running multiple tight end sets frequently. In the WCO, those sets are used rarely, and almost always to give yourself extra blockers. Not some sort of passing attack. If we do use those sets for passing, then we aren't using the WRs we also got. And talent level is arbitrary anyway. Kelly was rated lower by everybody, largely because of his injury history, slow speed and attitude. It's too early to close the book on him just yet, but the guy can't even get on the field. If we were going just for BPA, we would have picked Desean Jackson. Oh, but he's too small... WTF? I agree, but what about your BPA argument? But...but...but...

I don't want to hear it.