which doll is the bad doll?`

[Special K]

Um, I'm confused about this "Study." Is this a peer-reviewed, IRB approved, scientific study????

[twa]

Um, I'm confused about this "Study." Is this a peer-reviewed, IRB approved, scientific study????

That would take all the "fun" out of it.

[BigMike619]

In many cases, there does seem to be a set of rules for whites and a set of rules for blacks.

You can sit there all you want and come up with smart asnwers all you want, but people(white and black)are gonna commit crimes. Is it wrong to ask for fair punishment?

yeah, God forbid that I come up with a "smart" answer that might give black people no more reasons to complain about why they arent on the same level as white people. What was I thinking? :doh:

In many cases you are just looking for the difference in rules instead of trying to figure out why in the heck you are doing **** thats against the law to begin with!! Thats the problem, not the punishment for it but the crime itself. Stop going out there and doing dumb **** and you wont have to worry about if that white dude got probation and you didnt.

[33]

I'm putting forth questions that should be answered. Perhaps by doing so your stance may become more clear.

Like

Why are we even considering this to be valid when all we saw was 3 of 100 kids?

What of the other 97 kids?

~Bang

That's fair, but you were painting me into a corner I did not previously exist in.

I previously was a documentary editor. I understand the idea of seeing just a clip and knowing it doesn't give perspective into the larger picture. I too would like to see the entire thing, but my skepticism isn't as big because it's fairly obvious that black youth could have self-image issues.

The better question in my mind, is what do these answers really mean, and where are they coming from?

We don't know if these kids come from middle class two family homes or single mother South Bronx existences.

[Mooney]

A child who grows up hearing, everyday, from both parents, how beautiful she is, believes it. And EVERY child should believe that.

What about the really ugly ones? Shouldn't they just have to face reality?

[Bang]

In many cases, there does seem to be a set of rules for whites and a set of rules for blacks.

You can sit there all you want and come up with smart asnwers all you want, but people(white and black)are gonna commit crimes. Is it wrong to ask for fair punishment?

It's not wrong, and you're right. There are many instances in this country where things are not applied fairly. That sucks and it must change.

Would you agree that one sure-fire way to perhaps solve some of these problems is to stop teaching our kids the prejudices of past generations, ours included?

I've always felt that if everyone would cooperate on that level, if we all could somehow just not put our own burdens on our kids, then within 2 generations this country would be a lot better off. In many ways, I think it's truly the only way we're ever going to get a firm handle on the problem.

You know where I stand on this, anyone who's read any of my comments on race in this country should by now. Our kids are the answer. BUT, it will take conscious effort to not pass on the anger, the prejudice, the mistrust, all the inherent problems of racism.

I try. I have one kid, and I do my best to do just what I said above. I live in a diverse neighborhood, and all of our kids play together. They play in my yard, they play down the street in Monique's yard, they play next door in Loomis' yard, and here on my street, we all get along. I've been here 20 years come June, and I can honestly say I have NEVER had a problem of a racial nature in this neighborhood. I've had occasional problems with neighbors, I've had occasional problems with other kids, but in this neighborhood, we've never taken it to that other level.

So it can be done. It just needs to be done on a much larger scale.

~Bang

[Special K]

That would take all the "fun" out of it.

See, there's a reason those in the scientific community have to abide by those "checkpoints" in order to produce a valid, statistically significant study...it removes the possibility of researcher bias, response bias, and the fact that 3% response can equal a statistically significant outcome in this particular case....

This is not to say that racial disparity does not exist in this country, multiple studies have proved that...but this study doesn't prove anything to me unless it's an actual IRB approved, peer-reviewed scientific study.

[twa]

A simple way to improve the results of the test is to segregate society.

Don't believe me?

North (integrated schools) South (segregated schools)

Prefer to play with white doll 72% 62%

White doll is "nice" 68% 52%

Black doll is "bad" 71% 49%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Clark_(psychologist)#Doll_experiments

[Teller]

What about the really ugly ones? Shouldn't they just have to face reality?

I can't speak for them. My children are incredibly beautiful and perfect in every way.

No seriously...

Life can be very cruel. Kids and even other adults can be incredibly harsh. If a person is 'ugly' whether physically or as a person, they'll find out soon enough. Life has a way of making sure of that. But I personally believe that it's a parent's responsibility to set that self-esteem bar as high as possible, before their children face the realities of the world. The world will do enough damage without a headstart.

And just for the record, I'm not trying to brainwash my kids. They are beautiful. They are intelligent. They are amazing people. I'm not telling them something that's not true. I'm just making sure they understand it IS true.

[Teller]

I previously was a documentary editor. I understand the idea of seeing just a clip and knowing it doesn't give perspective into the larger picture. I too would like to see the entire thing, but my skepticism isn't as big because it's fairly obvious that black youth could have self-image issues.

So you're not as critical of this study because of your personal preconceptions?

Thanks for your honesty.

[Guest sith lord]

It's not wrong, and you're right. There are many instances in this country where things are not applied fairly. That sucks and it must change.

Would you agree that one sure-fire way to perhaps solve some of these problems is to stop teaching our kids the prejudices of past generations, ours included?

I've always felt that if everyone would cooperate on that level, if we all could somehow just not put our own burdens on our kids, then within 2 generations this country would be a lot better off. In many ways, I think it's truly the only way we're ever going to get a firm handle on the problem.

You know where I stand on this, anyone who's read any of my comments on race in this country should by now. Our kids are the answer. BUT, it will take conscious effort to not pass on the anger, the prejudice, the mistrust, all the inherent problems of racism.

I try. I have one kid, and I do my best to do just what I said above. I live in a diverse neighborhood, and all of our kids play together. They play in my yard, they play down the street in Monique's yard, they play next door in Loomis' yard, and here on my street, we all get along. I've been here 20 years come June, and I can honestly say I have NEVER had a problem of a racial nature in this neighborhood. I've had occasional problems with neighbors, I've had occasional problems with other kids, but in this neighborhood, we've never taken it to that other level.

So it can be done. It just needs to be done on a much larger scale.

~Bang

Good post and I do agree with you.

[33]

So you're not as critical of this study because of your personal preconceptions?

Thanks for your honesty.

This isn't really a study from what I can tell. More like a documentary copy catting. But to answer your question, yes, partly.

[Teller]

This isn't really a study from what I can tell. More like a documentary copy catting. But to answer your question, yes, partly.

I was being sincere, although you're correct. "Study" was the wrong word.

We all bring preconceived notions into every debate. To man up and admit that is an admirable trait.

Speaking of which, to have had such a civil debate on a difficult topic like this is pretty cool. To you, sith, and the others I generally find myself debating in threads like these, thanks for keeping this one on the right track.

We need to keep this up. It's only through grassroots dialogue that we will come to an understanding in this country. And it's only through understanding that we'll find solutions.

[33]

We need to keep this up. It's only through grassroots dialogue that we will come to an understanding in this country. And it's only through understanding that we'll find solutions.

You mean I can't beat an understanding out of you.

I really have a hope that we'll care for all children in the future. That a village will come to raise a child again. No black child, white child. No your child, my child. Just children that we all will have a bit of responsibility towards, and a debt of gratitude for like Bang said, teaching us as well. I'm going to stop now, because I'm beginning to sound like I'm advocating hippie communes and that wasn't my intention. :laugh:

[Teller]

I'm going to stop now, because I'm beginning to sound like I'm advocating hippie communes and that wasn't my intention. :laugh:

Nah. You're actually starting to sound like you're advocating Hillary Clinton....which is worse. :laugh:

[Drockvb]

I think it's because most dolls in the stores are white, so they relate to the white doll more. It's what they see more often.

[33]

Nah. You're actually starting to sound like you're advocating Hillary Clinton....which is worse. :laugh:

We can agree on that. :laugh:

Being worse, that is.

[Teller]

We can agree on that. :laugh:

See. You're not as misinformed as you seem. :paranoid:

[Tastes Like Chicken]

Where the **** were the Asian dolls?!!! Racists!!1

Obama would just point at both dolls.

[BigMike619]

Where the **** were the Asian dolls?!!! Racists!!1

Obama would just point at both dolls.

yeah, WHOS reppin for TLC?!!! :laugh:

[Tastes Like Chicken]

BTW, Karen just told me that she remembers doing the doll test as a child.

She pointed to the white doll. When asked why, she said because she has blue eyes.

So, maybe this isn't always about the societal influence, as much as it is, thinking that something which is different and unique, to be beautiful?

[BigMike619]

BTW, Karen just told me that she remembers doing the doll test as a child.

She pointed to the white doll. When asked why, she said because she has blue eyes.

So, maybe this isn't always about the societal influence, as much as it is, thinking that something which is different and unique, to be beautiful?

thats a good thought and made me remember something as well just now.

When I met my now ex-wife and we had a son I remember being happy that she was Mexican because in the winter time I get SO white that you can see my veins in my arms. I remember when my son came out and he had tan skin that I was really happy because women love a tan guy as well.

[DjTj]

There's a more thorough discussion of this study here:

http://www.btimes.com/News/article/article.asp?NewsID=10180&sID=3

Apparently, 15 of 21 children preferred the white doll.

That raises an interesting question ... what is the result we would like to see?

In a "colorblind" world, it would be 50/50 ... and white girls would also choose the dolls 50/50.

In a "self-esteem" world, black girls would choose the black doll 100% of the time, and and white girls would choose the white doll 100% of the time.

In a "societal influence" world, both black and white girls would pick the white doll around 70% of the time, to represent the proportion of whites in the population. (This is actually not far from the 15/21 result of the study).

...I would really like to see this done with white girls as a baseline comparison.

[81artmonk]

I was disgusted, but it wasn't by the answers of the kids. This discussion was again based on slavery. Why does the black community hang on to that so hard?? You don't see jews everytime something happens calling upon the antisemitic nazi-card??

I really think thier concern is misplaced. When they spoke about not enough black leaders to look up to, or black role models, who is to blame for that?? The same black leaders who the black community look up to, tell them that the black role models aren't really that!

The people who they are told to or given to look up to are Rappers, athletes who are in trouble with the law. The ones who they should be looking up to like Tiger, Rice, powell, and one of our great supreme court justices, those are IMO held in the same regard and as uncle tom!!

This was all just a circle jerk about slavery and how white america is holding the brother down. Ridiculous and ignorant.

What about the fact that black america doesn't strive to attain better. How about the the fact that black america doesn't stay with the family and father their kids, rather stick their pee pee in every availible who ha and than leave.

I'm sorry, but I think black america spends way too much time feeling sorry for themselves and blaming whitey rather than taking advatnage of ALL THE GREAT opportunities there are and making something of it!!

[33]

What about the fact that black america doesn't strive to attain better. How about the the fact that black america doesn't stay with the family and father their kids, rather stick their pee pee in every availible who ha and than leave.

Finally, Facts! :doh: