When the strange is not so strange...Logic and staff hiring.

[SWFLSkins]

When you consider chemistry and structure I'd say that this style would yield a weaker staff overall. At the end of the day, we traded Gregg Williams and Al Saunders for Greg Blache and Jim Zorn. Hardly an upgrade.

____________________

BarryWilburn, this is hardly conclusive at this point. It maybe that we get great results from one or both of these moves. Blanche maybe more aggressive, and the DL may actually get some much needed talent. Zorn could easily help JC become very productive, he did it with Hasselback in Seattle. Not saying it is a done deal, but the possibility exists. So saying it is hardly an upgrade is a reach at this point--IMO.

[Oldskool]

Good post Art.

One item I will disagree is with the assumption that Zorn will call the plays his first year as a OC. If this team hires a WCO minded HC (Mariucci :fingersx: ), I can see the coach and the the OC splitting time or even the coach outright calling the plays but the foundation being laid out by Zorn.

[McD5]

I don't suggest it's an upgrade to last year's staff.

I don't think that's POSSIBLE this year under ANY circumstances. What I'm asking you to think of is whether the people we have here now are better for this team than a bunch of people holding their titles for the first time ever. And if not, do you think it'd be that hard to convince someone that at THIS moment, in February, it's probably not a bad thing to get running with what's there for at least a year.

I love differing takes and opinions on here....and the ability to see things in ways others may not is the greatest skill one can possess. Just ask any successful entrepreneur.

You always provide that Art. But one important hole in that theory jumps right out immediately--The lack of respect.

The second you hire the OC and DC prior to the head coach, you are taking something away from him. His vision has already been surpressed. It is hard to then walk into the locker room and demand the respect of the players.

It gets worse. All chain of command, a huge problem during Gibbs 2, is once again in turmoil.

Who is the coach again? The new guy that is being force fed his staff, or Danny?

Forget the obvious risk of not getting along with the other coaches....colossal in itself.....the real problem is that you make the incoming coach impotent.

[Art]

The owner's job is to respect the team at all costs.

If a coach wouldn't take the job because he'd rather put together a staff of newbies to benefit him at the expense of the team, I suspect that's a man we don't need or want.

No coach coming in, even from college, would know every member of his new staff. If he's asked to take an experienced staff for a year before putting his own stamp on it as it's best for the team as a whole. Gibbs and Williams never worked before. That could hvae been a disaster.

[portisizzle]

Y

And that is why no one but scrubs would touch this job with a ten foot pole

For enough money maybe we can get them to use the 20 foot pole.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

The owner's job is to respect the team at all costs.

Art, I guess they fixed your feed?

If so, congrats. It has been disorienting seeing independent thinking coming from you. Your posts are always great reading, and now the lion has come home again.

[Om]

If the argument is that under NO circumstances could or should a team hire coordinators before a head coach ... it's a non-starter of an argument that ignores both history and common sense. There are multiple examples of teams that have done so already mentioned in this thread, and surely many more going back in NFL history.

If the argument is that in this particular instance, with the particular set of circumstances Art outlines in the OP, the REDSKINS have made a mistake in how they've handled this thing is what we'll be dissecting and debating well into next season when we finally start getting actual data to study on whether it worked or not.

Arguing over whether or not the philosophical idea of hiring the assistants first, while good message board fodder, is essentially meaningless. When a head coach is finally announced, we'll start piecing the specifics together and be in a position to parse whether or not we think the various hires made sense, whether or not the new HC is/was really okay with his new staff, whether or not we think the Skins had a master plan all along, etc.

It's going to be a fun off season.

[chrisxcore]

Look, I like Gregg Williams a lot. I was really pulling for him to get the HC position and with more and more time to think about it, I did it blindly. Obviously, us GW supporters had tunnel vision, not seeing the obvious - that at this time, seemingly NO other teams were remotely interested in him to fill any vacancies other than defensive coordinator. Sentimental favorite to many of us, sure. There was something we were all missing though.

Al Saunders - IMO, is extremely overrated. Simple as that. GW may just fall into this category too.

I'm thrilled with the hire of Zorn, and not at all upset with promoting Blache. I think we're in pretty good shape on both sides of the ball. With key position coaches in place - even moreso. Zorn, if nothing else, should - SHOULD - finally get all this potential we've been hearing about out of Jason Campbell. Upgrade? Remains to be seen. Downgrade? I just don't think so.

That all being said, when you take a step back and look at the big picture, it's almost impossible for me to believe that it wasn't Fassel (or maybe Meeks - since he reportedly recommended Zorn and Blache as well) didn't have a final "OK" or at least some input, in all these decisions. I really can't imagine someone walking into this job with all the other positions in place at this point. They guy who will be our head coach eventually has been just that without the fancy title for a few weeks now. Hell, that would at least make some sense.

[Art]

Art, I guess they fixed your feed?

If so, congrats. It has been disorienting seeing independent thinking coming from you. Your posts are always great reading, and now the lion has come home again.

You've never NOT seen independent thinking from me, ASF. You have never seen hairbrained conspiracy theories or brutal attacks on someone for providing information he may have and others do not. Don't confuse the two

Oh, and ASF, don't you find it at least mostly pathetic that you view independent thinking as something that is negative toward the organization?

[bulldog]

the fact remains that Parcells was able to assemble a front office and coaching staff in a couple of weeks after taking the Dolphins job. Admittedly, he 'stole' personnel from Dallas where he coached previously, but my point is he was able to find people he thinks he can win with, and was not concerned that his HC was an OL coach last year or that others on the staff were similarly promoted a slot up the chain.

Maybe the Redskins' process will result in a better hire than if the Redskins had simply hired Williams or then defaulted to Fassel immediately thereafter. However, if that becomes the case I would make the argument it was as much good fortune and a favorable turn of events (negotiations with candidate X) as it was a well-oiled and coordinated effort from go.

[chipwhich]

being under contract...... hmmmmmmm

the Ravens let go other coaches but not Ryan.... the only way he was leaving was if hired as HC, Remember they wouldn't allow other teams to talk with him for a DC.... it wasn't Harbaugh's choice in anyway to keep him, but management's decision

I don't believe Ryan was assured the defensive coordinator job. It turned out they retained him. He wasn't fired, he wasn't hired as the head coach. He interviewed for other head coaching jobs. It doesn't mean if the new head coach didn't want him, then the owner Bischotti would have forced him to keep him. I do believe the Ravens new head coach had a say. Ryan wasn't signed to a contract prior to hiring a head coach, he was already under contract. Quite a difference.

[Oldskool]

Al Saunders - IMO, is extremely overrated. Simple as that. GW may just fall into this category too. [

I'm thrilled with the hire of Zorn, and not at all upset with promoting Blache. I think we're in pretty good shape on both sides of the ball. With key position coaches in place - even moreso. Zorn, if nothing else, should - SHOULD - finally get all this potential we've been hearing about out of Jason Campbell. Upgrade? Remains to be seen. Downgrade? I just don't think so.

Overrated? I cannot possibly understand how you can come up with this knowing full well what he did in KC and part of the Rams teams of the late 90's AND knowing the philosophical differences that he and coach Gibbs had in play calling.

One thing that I will give Zorn and the WCO is that the playbook won't be 700 pages and therefore will be easier to digest.

Whether Campbell takes to this offense remains to be seen.

That all being said, when you take a step back and look at the big picture, it's almost impossible for me to believe that it wasn't Fassel (or maybe Meeks - since he reportedly recommended Zorn and Blache as well) didn't have a final "OK" or at least some input, in all these decisions. I really can't imagine someone walking into this job with all the other positions in place at this point. They guy who will be our head coach eventually has been just that without the fancy title for a few weeks now. Hell, that would at least make some sense.

It does and it doesn't. Basically because the OC and the DC have been cut loose, they had to go out and hire the best position coaches that were out there. To wait for the HC to be hired would have been counter productive and could have lead to one or both of them not being available, knowing the fact that the HC search would have taken an extended period of time.

Now if Dannyboy had made up his mind and was going to hire Fassel and decided not to because of the overwhelming backlash, this makes even more sense, as Fassel probably already gave his rubber stamp to these guys.

[chipwhich]

You get to outline who would be better for the Redskins as a staff than who we have and get to sell it to me like you'd sell it to a possible coach. Otherwise, it's not just Art who likes to make it sound logical, but, it's you realizing it is.

Simple....

Head coaches like to pick assistant coaches who follow their philosophy.

The Tuna would never go for it.

Billichek would never go for it.

Now it might turn out that Zorn and Blache are the right mix for a head coach. But if I am going in to coach a team. If I am responsible for wins and losses. If I am responsible for defensive and offensive performance. Then I want to be responsible for who is leading the troops.

Truth is I think Fassel was the head coach all along and approved of these choices, but thats neither here nor there in terms of your theory proposed in this thread.

[WVMike59]

Snyder has one chance here. If he doesn't come out with a 'show-stopper' then he has no clue how to manage the Redskins. Jack Kent Cooke has to be looking down on 'Danny-Boy' and shaking his head. If the Redskins end up with the current list of candidates, then they will not have a winning season for years to come. Since Bill Cowher's name on the list, the right choice for head coach has to come from some assistant within the NFL who has been mentored by the likes of Holmgren or Belichick. We need youth with a pure desire to WIN!

[Art]

Simple....

Head coaches like to pick assistant coaches who follow their philosophy.

The Tuna would never go for it.

Billichek would never go for it.

Now it might turn out that Zorn and Blache are the right mix for a head coach. But if I am going in to coach a team. If I am responsible for wins and losses. If I am responsible for defensive and offensive performance. Then I want to be responsible for who is leading the troops.

Truth is I think Fassel was the head coach all along and approved of these choices, but thats neither here nor there in terms of your theory proposed in this thread.

Gruden went for it. Won a Super Bowl. And, how do you know the coach won't agree with the philosophy?

It may be true Parcells wouldn't do it, and it may be true Belichick wouldn't do it TODAY, but only because he's had Tom Brady to erase from the memories of everyone how sorry he is as a coach. He'd have done it back in the day when he was a double-digit loser 5 of 6 years as a coach.

[Art]

Snyder has one chance here. If he doesn't come out with a 'show-stopper' then he has no clue how to manage the Redskins. Jack Kent Cooke has to be looking down on 'Danny-Boy' and shaking his head. If the Redskins end up with the current list of candidates, then they will not have a winning season for years to come. Since Bill Cowher's name on the list, the right choice for head coach has to come from some assistant within the NFL who has been mentored by the likes of Holmgren or Belichick. We need youth with a pure desire to WIN!

JKC hired no-name Joe Gibbs. He's not the model of people to look at for their hiring prowess. That decision, when made, was strange. Gibbs was a nobody. Worked out great, but that's because Gibbs worked it out, not because JKC made it work.

[illone]

It would be just as easy to question Snyder if he had gone the other direction.

If Dan had quicky hired a HC as soon as Gibbs quit there would be threads outlining Dan's incompetence and impatience in these matters as well as wonderings about why he can't make a wholesale change in philosophy in regards to the hiring process.

It's still too early to judge any of this.

[Dirk Diggler]

It's going to be a fun off season.

In the same way that going to the dentist could be considered fun.

[cjbrown]

I thought that Spags had a staff in place when he came over from Phili to be the DC. Not the head coach, but success with a staff already in place.

[HigSkin]

If not an experienced NFL HC like Fassel or Mariucci.....

One thought I had was they filled in the missing pieces and hired Zorn because they were looking at college candidates. A college coach would need an experienced staff.

:2cents:

[Destino]

All that is going on here is redskins fans attempting to justify what we would have looked down upon if this were happening with any other team. In fact we all did a good amount of laughing about this when the cowboys hired coordinators before hiring the head coach. By installing the entire team and scrambling for an ass to fill the big seat the perception created is one in which the coach has no power. He's an employee like anyone else of no particular significance. The owner is picking the type of offense, type of defense, and his hires are loyal to him - not the head coach.

Frankly, knowing how reputation is important in this league, I wouldn't take the Skins job if I were a successful coordinator. It a recipe for career suicide. You have no control over the team but if it fails you are fired and blamed for the failure.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

This makes sense except for one small issue:

Zorn is bringing the West Coast Offense.

This is no small decision, and I don't think it is the type of decision that an owner should make. It also limits the field of head coaching candidates that one can reasonably choose from.

I don't have a huge problem of keeping some of the staff together. And I think that you can defend keeping one coordinator in place - like Pittsburgh and Baltimore did.

I think you can even bring in two coordinators if they are both going to run mostly the same offense.

But bringing in an OC who is going to completely revamp an offense without a HC's strikes me as a total checkmate on any future coach's authority.

[Art]

That what Dallas did worked out as well as it did tends to lend credence to the ability to do it and have it work out.

[Art]

This makes sense except for one small issue:

Zorn is bringing the West Coast Offense.

This is no small decision' date=' and I don't think it is the type of decision that an owner should make. It also limits the field of head coaching candidates that one can reasonably choose from.

I don't have a huge problem of keeping some of the staff together. And I think that you can defend keeping one coordinator in place - like Pittsburgh and Baltimore did.

I think you can even bring in two coordinators if they are both going to run mostly the same offense.

But bringing in an OC who is going to completely revamp an offense without a HC's strikes me as a total checkmate on any future coach's authority.[/quote']

Unless the coach is a WCO coach.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Unless the coach is a WCO coach.

That's why I said it limits the field. Your choices are either a WCO coach or a defensive coach who wants little say in the offense. (And my suspicion is that a lot of defensive-minded coaches would not be interested in running the WCO).

I know he's not a candidate, but the hiring of Zorn immediately the closes the door on someone like Cowher coming in. (At least one would think. Danny always has the trump card of a gazillion dollar contract).