When the strange is not so strange...Logic and staff hiring.

[Art]

So in reading the board and numerous media reports, it seems common to consider the hiring of coordinators to be a tremendously insane thing to do before a head coach. We all agree a head coach typically wants to make his staff and thus not being able to is a hard thing to imagine someone buying in to readily. This seems to be a key reason that many think the head coach will be someone who likes the staff. While that is not poor logic, I will propose a logic no one else has come up with on their own as to why the staff is in place.

1. Joe Gibbs loses a playoff game, flies home and quits. Doesn't give the team notice. Doesn't give anyone time to make a quiet list. Quits.

2. Williams is the presumptive favorite. But something about his interviews doesn't click and he is fired.

3. Our list of candidates consists of people like Meeks and Spags. We might reasonably expect Meeks to be coaching for a while. Turns out it was Spags who did.

4. The clock is ticking. The new head coach will come in and have to build a staff. Teams won't let people come over for laterals. Meaning, our DC woudl be a position coach. Our positoin coaches past QAs. A staff of people all moving up a level in their lives. A staff full of Jim Zorn's.

5. The existing staff is one of the best, most qualified in football.

In the end, might this have crossed anyone's mind?

If given a choice between No. 4 and No. 5, is 4 or 5 better? For the TEAM, regardless of the coach. Jim Zorn will be calling his first plays this season. Is it better to have experienced guys behind him to help him, or better to have other guys who've never done the jobs they are in to do that?

As we interview coaches and they mention the staff is in place, would it be impossible to convince them how LUCKY they are that it is? We've just saved them a month of putting a staff together, allowing him to come in, learn the players, prepare for the draft, augment his people as he wishes, possibly, but, it is difficult to imagine any new coach would think he could put a better group of people together.

If so, is it possible the question isn't, "What self respecting coach would take a job with his staff filled out," but is, "What self respecting coach wouldn't?"

In the circumstance where we're dropped open in the middle of the playoffs, is it impossible to believe the hiring of a staff around the future head coach might actually not be an overwhelming negative, but, perhaps, a reasonable positive? Indeed, the coach will want control, and he can have it. If those guys aren't right, fire them next year.

It seems to me if one finds any weight in this logic that one could argue hiring the staff was not at all unwise in the situation we found ourselves, despite the common view it was a one in a million thing.

[Roborob132]

That is why I stated it in another thread. NO GOOD COACH or reputable coach wants this job. He is a PR GUY for Snyder who insists that he is in all moves and has final say. What is there for a coach to do. Gibbs got le-way, no other coach will. The only ones that will come here are those that are unemployed and have no other option.... I gaurantee that is Snyder hired a coach to do just that coach, and hire and fire and be the man of the team, alot of folks would jump on it. However, this is not the case.

ALL HAIL ART SHELL COMING IN AND BEING THE MAN. HAHAHAH

[McD5]

Ummm No.

This resonates of the "Secondary is more important than D-line for sacks crack" that was being sold around here last year.

Plenty of young kids were harmed by those drugs.

[Sarge]

You're off here Art. I can't seem to recall any team that lost it's head coach hiring the coordinators before the new head coach. Most Head coaches make that decision. In fact, EVERY head coach has had input into his staff

Except here

And that is why no one but scrubs would touch this job with a ten foot pole

[TSO]

I like your logic. It's really the only logical explanation for everything. We didn't go and hire a bunch of nobodys to coordinate our offense and defense. These guys are well-respected around the league, PERIOD. Anyone with any ounce of football knowledge knows these guys are great to have on your team.

Proof of your logic, Art, is the fact that noone here can really claim that there are better coordinators available right now. The only thing they can say is that Jim Zorn is inexperienced... while that may be a valid argument, I think his skill in developing QBs with lesser talent than Jason Campbell way outweighs any negatives he may come with. If he can teach Jason some of things he managed to teach Hasselbeck who is not as talented as JC imo, than we just made the single most important move for the future of our franchise in a long time.

Remember, the QB is the franchise 90% of the time.

[BillyKilmer]

Art if you could hire any reasonably available coach who would it be?

[Ernie5]

Snyder who insists that he is in all moves and has final say

Yeah, see: this ignores that Snyder handed Schottenheimer, Spurrier, and Gibbs the reigns. He fired Schott over a coordinator disagreement -- possibly a mistake, but might it been a bigger mistake to keep Jimmy Raye? Every coach after Terry Robiske has gotten leeway (although Spurrier arguably didn't know what to do with it). Snyder has given his coaches everything they wanted, from expensive assistants to Florida Gators and all we here is the unsupported view that all Snyder wants is control. Thank you Sally, but you are wrong.

To me, keeping the defensive staff in tact and hiring Zorn + keeping some of the O staff in tact did one thing: it took some timing pressure off hiring a HC. If you do nothing until you've made the hire, 1 of 2 things COULD happen: (1) you rush into hiring someone as HC just so he can have time to hire guys he wants or (2) you take your time, but find that the guys you wanted to keep took gigs elsewhere or the guys you want to add have signed extensions, gone elsewhere or just don't want to leave where they are.

I think Cowher might blanche at taking a gig where most of the staff is in place, but most coaches wouldn't (for the reasons mentioned by Art).

[illone]

Don't you know knee-jerk reaction is the only logic allowed around here right now?

[Ernie5]

I can't seem to recall any team that lost it's head coach hiring the coordinators before the new head coach.

Dallas Cowboys, 2007 (13-3)

[Art]

You're off here Art. I can't seem to recall any team that lost it's head coach hiring the coordinators before the new head coach. Most Head coaches make that decision. In fact, EVERY head coach has had input into his staff

Except here

And that is why no one but scrubs would touch this job with a ten foot pole

We don't have a coach, so we don't know which scrubs would be interested and which wouldn't. But, what I'm asking you to do is consider given the circumstances and likely fact the coach will be given authority over his staff in the end, that providing a coach with a staff THIS good MIGHT not be a negative for a guy coming in to a job in February.

[33]

Art has some truth here. We are not the first organization where the HC won't have a choice in coordinators.

Even if Dungy or Gruden had a choice, do you think firing Moore or Kiffin would have gone over with ownership, front office, or the fan base. Clearly they okayed those guys in the interview stage.

I just hope we didn't screw Zorn over by eventually putting him in a "can't win" situation with a coach who isn't crazy about him, or wants to run their own offense.

[bubba9497]

You're off here Art. I can't seem to recall any team that lost it's head coach hiring the coordinators before the new head coach. Most Head coaches make that decision. In fact, EVERY head coach has had input into his staff

Except here

And that is why no one but scrubs would touch this job with a ten foot pole

Cowboys

Raiders

Ravens

all had Coordinator and some staff in place before hiring the HC

forgot Dungy & Gruden

[chipwhich]

Ummm No.

This resonates of the "Secondary is more important than D-line for sacks crack" that was being sold around here last year.

Plenty of young kids were harmed by those drugs.

But Art likes to make it sound logical.

[barry wilburn]

I'll bite.

Most of the Redskins staff was already under contract. Why not simply tell them to hang out for a bit and then make a decision when the coach was hired? This is how Lazor was treated, why not everyone else? Even Zorn. What makes you think that he wouldn't have taken the deal we gave him now, once a HC was hired? There were plenty of experienced guys around over the past few weeks. Cam Cameron jumps to mind. Also, I bet Fassel could have been hired as an OC. Meanwhile, the Defensive line coach we just hired was a college guy, so experience can't be the only factor in hiring a quality staff. Saying that hiring the staff before the head coach equals a stronger staff is an assumption, not a fact. When you consider chemistry and structure I'd say that this style would yield a weaker staff overall. At the end of the day, we traded Gregg Williams and Al Saunders for Greg Blache and Jim Zorn. Hardly an upgrade.

[Ernie5]

Art: Asking people to consider instead of regurgitating tired cliches about Snyder is asking an awful lot.

[chipwhich]

Cowboys

Raiders

Ravens

all had Coordinator and some staff in place before hiring the HC

Really? Which Ravens coordinators were assured jobs PRIOR to the announcement of a head coach? Just because they were under contract didn't ensure they were staying.

[Art]

Art if you could hire any reasonably available coach who would it be?

Well, if I had the choice, I'd hire Les Miles. This team needs a nutsack the size of Texas and Miles has that. Though college coaches have not done well in the NFL lately.

However, the Redskins have tried to hire respected former coaches and the hot college name. Seems to me if there's an evolution we hire a young coordinator type to see how that goes.

But, our job seems one where head coaching experience is pretty important so I think that's likely to be the direction.

[Art]

But Art likes to make it sound logical.

You get to outline who would be better for the Redskins as a staff than who we have and get to sell it to me like you'd sell it to a possible coach. Otherwise, it's not just Art who likes to make it sound logical, but, it's you realizing it is.

[Ernie5]

BW:

(1) All Snyder got was bag after bag of ________ for making the current staff wait. Everyone predicted that b/c of this act of such brazen disrespect, all of the coaches would leave after the Senior Bowl. No -- he acted responsibly in keeping them together.

(2) I would MUCH rather have Fassel as a HC than OC. I'm quite pleased with the prospect of Zorn.

(3) I agree that Blache is not necessarily an upgrade of GW, but I wasn't pleased with Saunders at all. I think Zorn has the chance to do more with this offense than Saunders did (although some of that difficulty might have been Gibbs).

(4) I'm saying that hiring a staff now makes a stronger staff; all I'm saying is that it makes some sense and certainly -- and this a fact -- fosters continuity, which seems like the mantra for everyone on this board. As far as facts go, we don't know that this staff will succeed; we only know that Snyder believes it will.

[bubba9497]

Really? Which Ravens coordinators were assured jobs PRIOR to the announcement of a head coach? Just because they were under contract didn't ensure they were staying.

being under contract...... hmmmmmmm

the Ravens let go other coaches but not Ryan.... the only way he was leaving was if hired as HC, Remember they wouldn't allow other teams to talk with him for a DC.... it wasn't Harbaugh's choice in anyway to keep him, but management's decision

[Art]

I'll bite.

Most of the Redskins staff was already under contract. Why not simply tell them to hang out for a bit and then make a decision when the coach was hired? This is how Lazor was treated, why not everyone else? Even Zorn. What makes you think that he wouldn't have taken the deal we gave him now, once a HC was hired? There were plenty of experienced guys around over the past few weeks. Cam Cameron jumps to mind. Also, I bet Fassel could have been hired as an OC. Meanwhile, the Defensive line coach we just hired was a college guy, so experience can't be the only factor in hiring a quality staff. Saying that hiring the staff before the head coach equals a stronger staff is an assumption, not a fact. When you consider chemistry and structure I'd say that this style would yield a weaker staff overall. At the end of the day, we traded Gregg Williams and Al Saunders for Greg Blache and Jim Zorn. Hardly an upgrade.

I don't suggest it's an upgrade to last year's staff.

I don't think that's POSSIBLE this year under ANY circumstances. What I'm asking you to think of is whether the people we have here now are better for this team than a bunch of people holding their titles for the first time ever. And if not, do you think it'd be that hard to convince someone that at THIS moment, in February, it's probably not a bad thing to get running with what's there for at least a year.

[Ernie5]

Excellent point about the Ravens. The front office decided that keeping Ryan as DC was a priority and I doubt Harbaugh had any quarrel with that. Then again, this is the vaunted front office who traded UP to draft Kyle Boller. At least this team drafted up to draft Jason Campbell.

[LD0506]

Art how is it possible that you can reach up and seine something out of thin air, weave it together that way to make sense no matter what the premise and you're NOT on some politician's writing staff? That's real talent.

[Dirk Diggler]

I think at this point, because the team has waited so damn long to hire a head coach.... you could convince me that should we hire Meeks/Fassel/Mooch tomorrow... that the best possible staff is currently in place. Better than any of them could have hired had they made their own choices.

However, I would have still preferred that the Skins just got this thing done within 2 weeks of Gibbs retiring and let the head coach at least have some say in his staff. I think this idea of putting the cart before the horse just sets up the HC for dissention as soon as we lose a few games. It's a heck of a lot easier to stay in the bunker with guys you know then guys you don't.

On a side note- this whole idea of waiting 3 extra weeks for Spags and then not hiring him stinks. If you are going to draw this thing out this long, you better get your guy. Like Cleveland did 3 years ago with Crennel.

It's 4 weeks into the offseason and I'm still waiting for Snyder to do something that makes some sense.

[gjshipp]

" At the end of the day, we traded Gregg Williams and Al Saunders for Greg Blache and Jim Zorn. Hardly an upgrade"

We dont know if this will be an upgrade or downgrade until we play some games. I dont like how the process has been handled but we cant take score until the end of next year at least. Then we can look back and say if this has been good or bad.