When the strange is not so strange...Logic and staff hiring.

[skinsn24]

This presumes the company didn't reject the person.

Spags was rejected and likely told so, right? We saw the AP report about him and not being ready to be a coordinator. So, he goes to New York and proclaims undying love. Employers interview people all the time they ultimately are not interested in. We weren't interested in Williams.

As we know about Snyder, when he's interested, he locks you away and your contract is done. You don't get a chance to breathe. You don't get a chance to say no. Snyder NEVER has failed to get EVERY individual he wants, be it on the football side, or his radio business. He hires the people he wants to hire. Always.

That alone lets you know anyone not hired wasn't wanted. That doesn't happen with us. We don't let people think it over. We make them an offer they can't refuse.

No this is simply inaccurate.

There are 0 reports of Mora or Spags being told that the skins didnt want them or didnt want to continue with them as candidates.

There are however many reports of those 2 saying "thanks but no thanks."

Spags told the skins, i need to go home and think about it. The skins said "ok call us"

He called and said no thanks. Not the other way around.

You can spin it anyway you want but its time to be honest.

The skins went public, fired williams, and said he was no longer considered for the job. They said we dont want williams. Period.

That didnt happen with the other 2 (3 with carroll be lets call it 2).

The other 2 peaced on Synder. So in fact Synder was not given the opportunity to say YES or NO to them. They made the decisions first.

And yes Synder has lost out on certain prospects. A. Pierce turned us down.

Smoot walked.

the list goes on.

[Art]

The spin doctor is in

The problem with the board is a thoughtful, reasonable post like mine can allow comments like this. That's not what ES was about. ES USED to be about taking someone's thoughts and discussing them in a good, healthy debate.

It's a shame it's less about that and more about idiotic personal assaults given those who don't happen to like what they've read, yet have no intelligent reply, thus, resort to this. So, take a break. ES is going to be the old ES the rest of today.

[Jumbo]

Sorry Jumbo, not this time.

williams was fired.

3 walked away

1. Mora

2. Carrol

3. Spags

All could have walked because they had great jobs, thats fine, thats a good reason to walk away, but fact is they walked away.

Did you even read what I typed ? It's like it went right past you, not just that you disagree. And did you read a little of the discussion, like a few posts further?I posted six links to hard news sources, including ones in J'ville, indicating the FO issued the firing before GW withdrew anything while the only link I knew of implying otherwise was JLC's blog "quoting" GW through the his "anonymous soruces?"

But that's fine. Let's not de-rail this thread. If you wish to continue on this side-issue we can do it in the other thread.

[Art]

Do you feel 100% that it's the same now as it always has been in this regard?

I assumed that Mora Jr. pulled out to keep his name clean, since I didn't think he could get the job.

Do we have any idea on whether potential suitors have approached Gibbs for his take on the FO structure?

We ALWAYS get who we want. It's not even close. It will be that way this way too, even if who we want is less inspired than we'd like, solely because the market is a bit more think.

Skinsn,

The Redskins don't talk to the media. They might release snippets here and there to friendly reporters, like the AP story about Spags being a year or two away. When the Redskins allow you to leave a room, you know they don't want you. It's perfectly normal for prideful men to release statements through their agents proclaiming their eternal love for city X or Y to assure the fan base who may have been concerned with the person possibly leaving.

I suspect you're right the Redskins didn't simply say no to anyone in the room, but our mode of operation is well known. The only new person who was offered a job so far was Zorn. He took it with our constant pressure. The old folks who were offered jobs and took them are the staff in place.

Snyder may be a lot of things, but, what he isn't is a guy who shoots and misses.

[skinsn24]

Did you even read what I typed ? It's like it went right past you, not just that you disagree. And did you read a little of the discussion, like a few posts further?I posted six links to hard news sources, including ones in J'ville, indicating the FO issued the firing before GW withdrew anything while the only link I knew of implying otherwise was JLC's blog "quoting" GW through the his "anonymous soruces?"

But that's fine. Let's not de-rail this thread. If you wish to continue on this side-issue we can do it in the other thread.

Last post on this in this thread.

I read exactly what you wrote. Your link doesnt provide other discussion in that thread, just 1 post.

Did you read what i wrote?? I am not talking about GW as being 1 of 3 to walk away. I said: Mora, Spags, and PC.

I also noticed that if JLC was talking about GW as one of them, thats fine, i am not.

[skinsn24]

Snyder may be a lot of things, but, what he isn't is a guy who shoots and misses.

Well it looks like this debate is going to turn a corner here.

You say that because these guys didnt get an offer before they left town, they were not wanted?

Well fassel, meeks, and Mooch were left without deals after their interviews as well right?

SO i am just a little confused on the logic of "if they left synders office without an offer, they will never get one."

[ChocolateCitySkin]

Snyder may be a lot of things, but, what he isn't is a guy who shoots and misses.

Cough, cough, Cowher...

Seems like the Skins are known as the place to guy to either get your pay day or ruin your career.

[iheartskins]

I really dont feel like getting into all the business particulars invovling those 2 concepts and loyalty but if you would like to we can PM it or create a new thread.

:laugh: Ok, Professor.

What you're missing is that barry raised the point, if unintentionally (and barry, please correct me if I'm wrong with respect to the point you raised) that the "loyal" fans are entitled to a "better" course of action with respect to the head coaching search.

And the answer to that is simply that they're not. The fans are only entitled to anything to the extent that they are customers (i.e., to the extent they create value for the 'Skins goodwill that you refer to) and they are delivered the product they've paid for which in just about every case they are.

That fans somehow believe that they are owed something more, whether vicariously through their preferred coach being hired, or by having their concept of how the organization should be run reflected in the actual day-to-day operation of the organization, which in both cases (as in just about every case) is presumptuous and ridiculous.

The inner-workings of organization are for the owner to determine.

And trust me in saying that the Redskins sweatshirt you bought or the $9 beer or the season tickets, don't entitle you to anything with respect to how the coaching selection process is completed.

Now that doesn't mean you can't criticize it, or call to question how it was conducted, but you're not entitled to anything.

And please don't start another thread. TIA.

[SiestaBob]

Art, I agree with your logic statement. Coach Gibbs did leave us in a bad situation by retiring when he did. I do support our coaching staff and the new coach will be able to select some of his staff since 3 or 4 of Gibb's staff have left in the last week or two. We just have to have faith that things turn out okay.

[Art]

The way Snyder interviews are marathon sessions. He spends time with each person. He tries to find good personality fits because good fits make it possible for longer, healthier relationships.

If we wanted Pete Carroll after talking to him, he'd be our coach.

Same with Mora. Same with Spags. At the very least you need to acknowledge this shared reality as part of your thinking.

[Art]

Cough, cough, Cowher...

Seems like the Skins are known as the place to guy to either get your pay day or ruin your career.

All reports are he never got to shoot with Cowher. Cowher refused all interviews with anyone. Thus Snyder never got a chance with him, assuming that information is true.

[skinsn24]

:laugh: Ok, Professor.

What you're missing is that barry raised the point, if unintentionally (and barry, please correct me if I'm wrong with respect to the point you raised) that the "loyal" fans are entitled to a "better" course of action with respect to the head coaching search.

And the answer to that is simply that they're not. The fans are only entitled to anything to the extent that they are customers (i.e., to the extent they create value for the 'Skins goodwill that you refer to) and they are delivered the product they've paid for which in just about every case they are.

That fans somehow believe that they are owed something more, whether vicariously through their preferred coach being hired, or by having their concept of how the organization should be run reflected in the actual day-to-day operation of the organization is both presumptuous and ridiculous.

The inner-workings of organization are for the owner to determine.

And trust me in saying that the Redskins sweatshirt you bought or the $9 beer or the season tickets, don't entitle you to anything with respect to how the coaching selection process is completed.

Now that doesn't mean you can't criticize it, or call to question how it was conducted, but you're not entitled to anything.

And please don't start another thread. TIA.

Eh Im just a student but it is my wheel house. 2. I dont start many threads, check my record.

I understand your claim that the 9 dollar beer and sweat shirt dont entitle me to having a winning team. Not sure i agree 100% but again that would be a different discussion.

What i do find interesting and on this point is that after the gaints won the superbowl the owner raised the trophy and talked directly to the fans. Saying they deserve this, this is for them, its all because of them, ect ect ect.

Have your cake and it too, is seemingly what you are saying owners get to do.

[Skin Deep]

the basic problem is that gibbs left the team hung out to dry by his precipitous move..

I'd say Snyder left the team seemingly "hung out to dry" by letting go of two of the best coordinators in the game.

Al Saunders proved he could dominate this league. Was his offense held back somewhat by Gibbs? We'll never know.

[Art]

Well it looks like this debate is going to turn a corner here.

You say that because these guys didnt get an offer before they left town, they were not wanted?

Well fassel, meeks, and Mooch were left without deals after their interviews as well right?

SO i am just a little confused on the logic of "if they left synders office without an offer, they will never get one."

I don't think just because you leave his office you'll never get a deal. Certainly a circumstance could exist where he can't find the perfect fit and comes back around to a less perfect one.

What I'm telling you is if he wants you, he gets you. If he wants Fassel, Meeks or Mooch, they'll coach here. But, for the most part, yeah, that those guys left the office tells you something. They won't be our coach.

[skinsn24]

The way Snyder interviews are marathon sessions. He spends time with each person. He tries to find good personality fits because good fits make it possible for longer, healthier relationships.

If we wanted Pete Carroll after talking to him, he'd be our coach.

Same with Mora. Same with Spags. At the very least you need to acknowledge this shared reality as part of your thinking.

So again, under your theory, our next head coach will not be:

Fassel

Mooch

Meeks

or any other candidate that was already talked to. Is this correct?

Ps. I would love for this to be correct and that your theory be true.

[duenni]

let's look at it this way!!

what does the HC actually do????

You have the OC who runs the O!

You have the DC who runs the D!

You have the STC who runs special teams.

In my opinion the HC just has to overlook everything and see that everything comes together, ist more like a quality man!!!!

But that's just my opinion.

[skinsn24]

I don't think just because you leave his office you'll never get a deal. Certainly a circumstance could exist where he can't find the perfect fit and comes back around to a less perfect one.

What I'm telling you is if he wants you, he gets you. If he wants Fassel, Meeks or Mooch, they'll coach here. But, for the most part, yeah, that those guys left the office tells you something. They won't be our coach.

I like that. Ignore my post below, as i was typing it while you were typing this one.

So you theory of, if you leave without an offer, you werent the guy.

I like it. I think it holds in 80-90% of all synder type transactions. But not 100% and i even think spags is one of those 10-20% that do get away, much like pierce.

I also agree with your statement that he may have to end up settling on one of the guys who left. I argued this in another thread. Key word "settling" but then again he could have then settled on spags or mora under this theory, but wont have the chance. You gotta allow for that under this train of thought.

[Art]

I'd say Snyder left the team seemingly "hung out to dry" by letting go of two of the best coordinators in the game.

Al Saunders proved he could dominate this league. Was his offense held back somewhat by Gibbs? We'll never know.

No, not Gibbs so much as the players who never bought in. You know this from their comments with Collins and when the offense was working how they were saying, "Wow, this thing works, it's just strange."

Gibbs didn't support Saunders enough by catering to Portis wandering in every few days to express "player" concerns and how the team needed this or that or this to succeed. Gibbs may have hurt himself by being too adaptable. He adapted when he got here because there was no proof his system would work and he feared failure.

This time around, there was no proof Saunders' system wouldn't work. Gibbs should have stood behind it more than he did probably. But, Gibbs didn't believe in his own offense enough either I don't believe.

[roanoker]

Good logic for the situation the franchise now finds itself in. At this point, given the time span in selecting a HC, whomever, is going to have to live with the assistants on board.

IMO, it is hard to see any quality assistant coaches jumping ship now. Which leads me to believe the one ultimately selected (Fossil?) had a part in the decision making process of the staff.

[iheartskins]

skinsn

For this being your wheelhouse, you're missing a key distinction:

The difference between an entitlement (i.e., an obligation) and an action that may be in one's best interest (i.e., a voluntary action).

Key difference.

[Art]

I like that. Ignore my post below, as i was typing it while you were typing this one.

So you theory of, if you leave without an offer, you werent the guy.

I like it. I think it holds in 80-90% of all synder type transactions. But not 100% and i even think spags is one of those 10-20% that do get away, much like pierce.

I also agree with your statement that he may have to end up settling on one of the guys who left. I argued this in another thread. Key word "settling" but then again he could have then settled on spags or mora under this theory, but wont have the chance. You gotta allow for that under this train of thought.

None of them will be our next head coach.

All you have to know is how Snyder works to know this.

[bedlamVR]

All the reports prior to the end of the season were Dan was going to offer Joe an exension to stay on a couple of years and I remember an article talking about him not having a plan B if Gibbs doesn't want to stay on, and really after the season we had can people blame him. Gibbs became much more than a just HC in the time after STs death and you would have a heart of frozen rock to be planning his replacement just in case ....

Also isn't it all academic at this point to argue which is the right and wrong way because all that matters is the results . It may be traditional to have the HC pick his staff BUT is it the best way just because its established ...thinking this way we would still be living in caves thinking our homes are a bit drafty and bears keep eating our children but hey its how things are done this is the right way.

Someone said that this set up if the OC/DC is not happy they will go straight to the owner . As if that doesn't happen now.

Also one quick point ... the D line does not exist in a vacuum on defense, neither does the secondary or the LBs for that matter. Our defense worked because Williams scheme worked with you have to think is not that different to the scheme in 2004,5 or 6. We did nothing to address the defensive line in 07 but you are saying that helped ... so really we should do nothing again ... it could be argued that the D line played better because they didn't have to worry about helping out in coverage because the secondary was playing better meaning they could commit more to pass rush and run defense but that doesn't fit into your theory so it is obviously wrong .

There is no black and white in this area, just like draft over free agency what fitted one team may not fit another .. the right answear is hazy

[skinsn24]

skinsn

For this being your wheelhouse, you're missing a key distinction:

The difference between an entitlement (i.e., an obligation) and an action that may be in one's best interest (i.e., a voluntary action).

Key difference.

Pretty good point. I see what your saying. And that difference could define a great owner form a horrible one.

Ie. "We do this for you" (the fans)

compared to

"We do this for me, and you get to come along if you want."

If football fanship was a true market all fans would move to the owner who does it for the fans.

It is interesting though. If an owner says "You (the fans) deserve this" That is right on the border of being entitled. As you deserve things your are entitled to. You can also be entitled to things you dont deserve, but it is rarley the case where you deserve something but are not entitled to it.

Infact that is only the case when something or someone is preventing you from getting what you deserve.

[iheartskins]

If we wanted Pete Carroll after talking to him, he'd be our coach.

Same with Mora. Same with Spags. At the very least you need to acknowledge this shared reality as part of your thinking.

Snyder--the Jedi master: "This is not the franchise you're looking for".

Then again, one wonders in that conversation who really was thinking that line.

Let's hope Art's right and it was Dan.

[HailSkinz1]

If I may butt in here....

There have been zero confirmed reports that the Redskins offered anyone a job and they declined it. All we can go on is what is reported. If anyone wants to speculate beyond that, I'd like to see the information that is forming their opinion.

Schwartz - don't recall any reports saying he was offered the job. He returned to Tennessee and was given a new contract. The new contract indicates to me that Schwartz was serious about the Redskins.

Carroll - He has turned down offers from other teams. If he indeed turned us down, no big deal. That alone says nothing about the process.

Spags - He decided he wanted to stay with the Giants. He got a nice contract out of it. I don't recall any confirmed reports that said he was offered the job. Again, the fact that he got a new contract out of this says to me he might have been considering the job.

Mora - Reports indicated that Snyder liked him, but I don't think there are any confirmed reports that the job was offered to him (I could be wrong). He returns to Seattle and is told he'll be the next in line there. Again, to me, that sounds like Mora was considering a possible offer but Seattle didn't want to lose him.

Meeks, Fassel, and Mooch - They are all still in the running. They haven't pulled their names out yet.

GW - Obviously, there was a major difference of opinion there. GW wasn't offered the job, but took himself out.

EDIT: Cowher - Cowher has had other offers and has repeated said he would not coach this year. That is not a reflection of this process.

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone.

Look, I'm no Snyder apologist. I've been critcal of him in the past and really, really wish he'd leave the football side of things alone. I also would like to see a real GM in here. But, while this process hasn't been pretty, what Snyder is doing right now is exactly what he should be doing. Taking his time to get it right. I think it will be Fassel, but at least now we know he did his homework.

Regardless of who Snyder picks, no one will be able to say it was the wrong choice - until we play some games. After the season, then we can either reasonably jump all over Snyder (and I'm sure a lot of people will say "I told you so") or we can rejoice (at which point I'm sure no one will say "gee, I'm sorry I acted like a jackass, I was wrong").

As an aside, it really makes me sick to hear people talk about not being a Redskins fan based on this process and the eventual choice. I thought our fanbase was stronger than that, but I was wrong.

Hail,

H