bschurm Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Watch the video again and envision your daughter/sister/girlfriend in his clutches.W...T...F? She'd probably get smacked by me for being out past curfew, resisting arrest and assulting a cop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I think we're forgetting that non-lethal means like pepper spray were developed to avoid the need to use physical force to overpower people. It's funny how folks are now arguing the opposite side here. Dude- He PUNCHED her in the face. Physical force was his first reaction. THEN came the non-lethal measure... and it was used to add insult to injury, not prevent injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Yes Juveniles do bad things but this guy could have taken that little girl home without slapping cuffs on her and freaking her out.If being outside was her only crime then a stern warning or an escort home seemed appropriate.....not cuffs or pepper spray. If it were me..I would have either escorted her or take her home and then cited the parents for breaking the law but I would not have traumatized a 15 year old. You are putting a lot of assumption into what happened before this video. And under the assumption that besides breaking curfew, this juvenile and many others out late at night are angels otherwise. Okay, I've been down the road you just described. What happens the next night you see her out, and the next? And the next? And is confident in her superiority over her situation and laughs at you because lets face it, "The cops can't do nothing.." because she's a juvenile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 She'd probably get smacked by me for being out past curfew, resisting arrest and assulting a cop! You need to be neutered. Fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
project myu Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 She'd probably get smacked by me for being out past curfew, resisting arrest and assulting a cop! Haha, you sound like a wifebeater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted October 5, 2007 Author Share Posted October 5, 2007 if he was trying to do something wrong why did he intentionaly bring her to the front of the car to put her on camera? in the video you can clearly tell he was putting her in front of the camera intentionaly because he kept looking at it. Does the camera document this 90 lb female out mussleing this 250lb policeman? Or does the camera document the 250lb policeman's giving himself an alibi for punching her in the face, breaking her arm, peper spraying her in the face and slamming her head on the hood of his cruser several times. Which do you find more reasonable. Oh and if the camera wasn't present and you just had photo's of both people after the fact. How could the policeman justify his actions? The policeman got it on tape because that's his alibi. It's unfathonable to me that that child overpowered him knowing he had the leverage, the strength, the weight, the training, and already had one of her arms in the cuffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschurm Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Dude- He PUNCHED her in the face. Physical force was his first reaction. THEN came the non-lethal measure... and it was used to add insult to injury, not prevent injury. She bit him! That is why he hit her. That may be the only questionable move he made. I have been told that life is all about perception, but man how can this be perceived as police brutality. 1. Breaking curfew 2. Resisting arrest (It looked like he was taking it easy 'cause she was so small) 3. Assault on a cop (he hit her 'cause she bit him) This situation was her fault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I'm torn on this one. She is clearly unarmed, not a danger in any way, and completely hysterical. It sure seems to me like the police officer could have waited and tried to calm her down a bit. On the other hand, she was resisting arrest and did bite him, so all bets are off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskinss Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Does the camera document this 90 lb female out mussleing this 250lb policeman? Or does the camera document the 250lb policeman's giving himself an alibi for punching her in the face, breaking her arm, peper spraying her in the face and slamming her head on the hood of his cruser several times.Which do you find more reasonable. Oh and if the camera wasn't present and you just had photo's of both people after the fact. How could the policeman justify his actions? The policeman got it on tape because that's his alibi. It's unfathonable to me that that child overpowered him knowing he had the leverage, the strength, the weight, the training, and already had one of her arms in the cuffs. yeah he put her in front of the camera because he knew she was going to bite him and he needed an alibi. you know what i am done with this ridiculous argument. the bottom line is the law is on his side. she is going to face charges of resisting arrest and assaulting an officer and he will get nothing because the law says that he was in the right and not her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Most of your justification is just made up. We don't know if the officer asked her to go hom. We don't know if her reply was ***** you. We don't know if she tried to ignore him or if he "nicely begged her to stop. What we do know is this policeman failed to physically subdue this 15 year old child for the non criminal offense of breaking curfew. We know that he failed to subdue her after slammer her on the hood of his cruser several times, almost breaking her arm, punchin her in the face, and finally peper spraying her in the face. Non of which is reasonable or should be lawful when confronting a minor. If she was mouthing off he could have called her and her parrents to the station the next day for a come to jesus meeting. Physically confronting this minor was a stupid move. Failing in that physical confrontation and having to resort to peper spray, and punches to the face is just embarassing. That is an assumption on my part, but it's an assumption based on experience. It's also an assumption to believe she was a timid angel before the video started as well. And it's also a huge assumption that confronting the parents with a "come to Jesus meeting" would be of great help. Again I'm just assuming based on my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschurm Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 You need to be neutered. Fast. So what your saying is you would never use reasonable force against your child as a form of discipline? I guess this is a topic we will have to agree to disagree on. And I would suggest that you are part of the problem with the lack of discipline in today's youth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Pressure Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 So what your saying is you would never use reasonable force against your child as a form of discipline? I guess this is a topic we will have to agree to disagree on. And I would suggest that you are part of the problem with the lack of discipline in today's youth! I think he is implying that he wouldn't use force to discipline a stranger's child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I'm torn on this one. She is clearly unarmed, not a danger in any way, and completely hysterical. It sure seems to me like the police officer could have waited and tried to calm her down a bit. On the other hand, she was resisting arrest and did bite him, so all bets are off. Valid perspective. Technically inarguable. I have not disputed for a second that the law will support the officer. I'm just stuck on the fact that (above all else, in any mature male's mind- especially a police officer) she's a FIFTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL. I just can't help but imagine this officer strangles kittens if he gets scratched while pulling their tails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 In terms of getting the hand cuffs on her being something easy that he should have been able to do, I wonder how many of you tried to do something like that. I have an 18 month old daughter that I out weigh by more than 150 lbs, but if she decideds she doesn't want to put a jacket or sweater on you can forget about physically forcing her to do it (unless of course you wanted to dislocate a shoulder or break the arm). The worse thing to do is physically fight w/ her over it because then it becomes a game for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 So what your saying is you would never use reasonable force against your child as a form of discipline? I guess this is a topic we will have to agree to disagree on. And I would suggest that you are part of the problem with the lack of discipline in today's youth! I would say that, and yes we disagree, and no, I am not part of the problem with today's youth because I have learned how to discipline without force. And yes, this is off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted October 5, 2007 Author Share Posted October 5, 2007 yeah he put her in front of the camera because he knew she was going to bite him and he needed an alibi. you know what i am done with this ridiculous argument. the bottom line is the law is on his side. she is going to face charges of resisting arrest and assaulting an officer and he will get nothing because the law says that he was in the right and not her. He was abusing her before she tried to bite him. He had slammed her on the hood of the car several times prior to that and he also had her second hand almost to the back of her neck by that time. The law isn't on his side. It's not reasonble to peper spray a child, much less punch them in the face. Children are not responsible for their actions. Adults are responsible for thier actions.. Even when those adults are policemen.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Yanno, you're 15 and out after curfew and the cops stop you, what happens? Seriously? They're gonna take you home and turn you over to mom n dad, end of story unless there's more "history" there. This kid does everything possible to resist and get away, I think the officer was remarkably restrained in his actions and I agree that he made a point of having it on camera. There are some here suffering from an overdose of TV and an underdose of goodsense and character. Accusing this cop of being a fascist, incompetent, etc., is saying a great deal more about you than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschurm Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I would say that, and yes we disagree, and no, I am not part of the problem with today's youth because I have learned how to discipline without force.And yes, this is off topic. I am not saying force is the first response in any situtation!. But there are situations that call for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted October 5, 2007 Author Share Posted October 5, 2007 In terms of getting the hand cuffs on her being something easy that he should have been able to do, I wonder how many of you tried to do something like that. I have an 18 month old daughter that I out weigh by more than 150 lbs, but if she decideds she doesn't want to put a jacket or sweater on you can forget about physically forcing her to do it (unless of course you wanted to dislocate a shoulder or break the arm). The worse thing to do is physically fight w/ her over it because then it becomes a game for her. Yes Pete, but handcuffs are not a jacket or sweater. I would say to you pete you could easily put your child on the ground, and very easily manipulate her wrists in any position you might choose, without harming her. Hand cuffs are designed to restrain people who might not want to be restrained. Jackets and sweaters are not. I would also say pete. If you put a handcuff on one of your hands and behind your back, that is a significant disadvantage when attempting not to be handcuffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdsknbill Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 JMS, Again, you or I (or anyone else on this thread) have NO idea of what happened prior to the video. Like I said, maybe she swung at him or verbally abused the officer. Then changed her tune to the helpless little girl when she realized that he was going to run her in. We just do not know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I am not saying force is the first response in any situtation!. But there are situations that call for it! Depends on how you define force, I guess. I certainly have physically picked up a recalcitrant small child to force her to comply. I was assuming you were referring to corporal punishment, and perhaps I was incorrect in doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dictator Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 He was abusing her before she tried to bite her. He has slammed her on the hood of the car several times prior to that and he also had her second hand almost to her neck by that time.The law isn't on his side. It's not reasonble to peper spray a child, much less punch them in the face. Children are not responsible for their actions. Adults are responsible for thier actions.. Even when those adults are policemen.. She was resisting arrest before he was abusing her. It' perfectly reasonable to pepper spray a "child" (although, a 15 year old is hardly a child). Children are not responsible for their actions? Then why is there a juvi. justice system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted October 5, 2007 Author Share Posted October 5, 2007 Yanno, you're 15 and out after curfew and the cops stop you, what happens? Seriously? They're gonna take you home and turn you over to mom n dad, end of story unless there's more "history" there. This kid does everything possible to resist and get away, I think the officer was remarkably restrained in his actions and I agree that he made a point of having it on camera.There are some here suffering from an overdose of TV and an underdose of goodsense and character. Accusing this cop of being a fascist, incompetent, etc., is saying a great deal more about you than him. So you don't think it's reasonable to expect a trained professional to be able to subdue a 90lb child without having to resort to punching her in the face, slamming her on his car several times, twisting her arm behind her back, or peper spraying her in the face. I think that says more about you and your rather low expectations of the police, rather than being an inditement on this officers critics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Yes Pete, but handcuffs are not a jacket or sweater. I would say to you pete you could easily put your child on the ground, and very easily manipulate her wrists in any position you might choose, without harming her. Hand cuffs are designed to restrain people who might not want to be restrained. Jackets and sweaters are not.I would also say pete. If you put a handcuff on one of your hands and behind your back, that is a significant disadvantage when attempting not to be handcuffed. Now this is armchair police officer at its best. Handcuffs always go on one at a time. This is one assumption I can safely make, do you think when she told her to turn around and put her hands behind her back she complied? And if you had your cuffs out ready to arrest, and you told someone just that and they didn't comply, what would you do? I guarentee it would be some technique involving putting on one cuff at a time, even though it does indeed put you at a disadvantage than nicely slipping on both at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dictator Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 So you don't think it's reasonable to expect a trained professional to be able to subdue a 90lb child without having to resort to punching her in the face, slamming her on his car several times, twisting her arm behind her back, or peper spraying her in the face. I think that says more about you and your rather low expectations of the police, rather than being an inditement on this officers critics... Do you think it's reasonable for people to comply with a reasonable request from a police officer? Please understand this...this girl was resisting arrest. An arrest this office was lawfully allowed to make. This girl refused. This girl bit at the officer. Why do you fail to recognize this? It's possible he went too far, but without seeing the entire exchange from start to finish, it's hard to know. what we do know is that she was resisting from the second she appeared in the front of the squad car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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