Policeman peper sprays 15 year old on curfew violation....

[redskinss]

So you don't think it's reasonable to expect a trained professional to be able to subdue a 90lb child without having to resort to punching her in the face, slamming her on his car several times, twisting her arm behind her back, or peper spraying her in the face. I think that says more about you and your rather low expectations of the police, rather than being an inditement on this officers critics...

ok i lied i'm not done with this ridiculous argument.

what would you be saying if the officer brought her to the front of his car and in his first attempt to get the cuffs on he broke her arm?

[JMS]

JMS, Again, you or I (or anyone else on this thread) have NO idea of what happened prior to the video. Like I said, maybe she swung at him or verbally abused the officer. Then changed her tune to the helpless little girl when she realized that he was going to run her in. We just do not know

The article says she was being detained for being out past curfew. Not for swinging on him, verbally abusing him, or attempting to down a comercial jet liner with a airam missle.

Can we make up justification for his actions. No, even your attempts at making up justifications are ridicolous. This guy is a professional trained to deal with situations hopefully significantly more challenging than this. That this situation got so out of hand is best case, an inditement on his skills and his judgement as an officer, end of story.

Was this girl the model advisary. No. But the fact that she controled and dictated the officers acts; as most of you appoligists claim should be very troubling in and of itself. Frankly I have a hard time believing it.

We have seen that some police in this country at times believe themselves to be entitled to punitive physical retaliation for real or percieved acts from people they are dealing with. It's bad enough when those people are adults, it's inexcusable when those people are children. A scared child being detained for other than a criminal offense.

[PeterMP]

Yes Pete, but handcuffs are not a jacket or sweater. I would say to you pete you could easily put your child on the ground, and very easily manipulate her wrists in any position you might choose, without harming her. Hand cuffs are designed to restrain people who might not want to be restrained. Jackets and sweaters are not.

I would also say pete. If you put a handcuff on one of your hands and behind your back, that is a significant disadvantage when attempting not to be handcuffed.

Having never had to put handcuffs on or been had cuffed I'm not really qualified to state the ease, but a couple of things are appearnt to me:

1. Putting a jacket at least in some manner will be easier because you have extra room/strechiness of the jacket as compared to the limit mobility/lenght of hand cuffs.

2. Getting a hand cuff onto one hand would be pretty easy because you can use both hands to do it, but once that hand is in, and you are using one hand to hold that hand, capturing the other hand in and putting into the handcuffs, while essentially using one hand is probably pretty hard if the person isn't cooperating.

[Dictator]

JMS,

I want you to answer my question:

Why are children, especially a 15y/o not responsible for their actions?

[Chachie]

So what your saying is you would never use reasonable force against your child as a form of discipline?

I guess this is a topic we will have to agree to disagree on.

And I would suggest that you are part of the problem with the lack of discipline in today's youth!

I'm saying I wouldn't use ANY force on my child after she (a 15 yr old girl- you get it?) was already disciplined with "reasonable" force by a stranger. But hey- good luck to your present or future offspring with regard to trusting any authority whatsoever due to being batted around all the time for being 15 years old.

[JMS]

ok i lied i'm not done with this ridiculous argument.

what would you be saying if the officer brought her to the front of his car and in his first attempt to get the cuffs on he broke her arm?

I would say he is an incompetent boob. I would say when matched against a 90lb female child it is inconcievable he was not able to get her second hand in the cuffs. In concievable that he was not able to hold her second hand with one of his hands.

The act of handcuffing someone should never resort in an injury. Especially when the first hand is already in the cuffs.

Also I can not actially concieve an a bigger mismatch than this policeman and this child. If he can't handcuff this youngster, I ask you; who could he handcuff? What use is he?

What would he accomplish against a hardenned criminal who he would by chance stumble across in the future? No chance...

[Chachie]

Having never had to put handcuffs on or been had cuffed I'm not really qualified to state the ease, but a couple of things are appearnt to me:

1. Putting a jacket at least in some manner will be easier because you have extra room/strechiness of the jacket as compared to the limit mobility/lenght of hand cuffs.

2. Getting a hand cuff onto one hand would be pretty easy because you can use both hands to do it, but once that hand is in, and you are using one hand to hold that hand, capturing the other hand in and putting into the handcuffs, while essentially using one hand is probably pretty hard if the person isn't cooperating.

Peter- I find myself respecting your every post and always enjoy your insight. You are a master of disciplined rationale and scientific analysis. A fifteen year old girl is not. You know this, I know this, and that officer knows this.

[redskinss]

I would say he is an incompetent boob. I would say when matched against a 90lb female child it is inconcievable he was not able to get her second hand in the cuffs. In concievable that he was not able to hold her second hand with one of his hands.

The act of handcuffing someone should never resort in an injury. Especially when the first hand is already in the cuffs.

Also I can not actially concieve an a bigger mismatch than this policeman and this child. If he can't handcuff this youngster, I ask you; who could he handcuff? What use is he?

What would he accomplish against a hardenned criminal who he would by chance stumble across in the future? No chance...

a full grown man would be less likely to get injured. he said right in the video not once but twice that he didnt want to hurt her and if she kept resisting he would use more force. if i didnt want to be handcuffed ill tell you this they wouldnt be getting them on me without some serious force most likely resulting in some injury to myself. it is no different with a 15 year old girl just on a smaller scale needing less force due to her underdeveloped bones and muscles.

[JMS]

JMS,

I want you to answer my question:

Why are children, especially a 15y/o not responsible for their actions?

Because they are children, and children don't fully understand the consequences of their actions as adults do? The fact is our legal system does not hold children responsible for their actions as it does for adults. Not children of 17 years much less 15 years. Not for murder, not for theft, and not for crimes many times worse than curfew violation or getting hystarical in the presense of a policeman.

[iheartskins]

Because they are children, and children don't fully understand the consequences of their actions as adults do? The fact is our legal system does not hold children responsible for their actions as it does for adults. Not children of 17 years much less 15 years. Not for murder, not for theft, and not for crimes many times worse than curfew violation or getting hystarical in the presense of a policeman.

So do we look at all 15 year olds the same? All 17 year olds?

[BeachSkin]

Good thing for him he did this in front of the camera.

[Dictator]

The fact is our legal system does not hold children responsible for their actions as it does for adults. Not children of 17 years much less 15 years. Not for murder, not for theft, and not for crimes many times worse than curfew violation or getting hystarical in the presense of a policeman.

But the fact that they are punished, somehow someway by the legal system shows they ARE responsible for their actions. They are also able to be tried as adults for some crimes. You apparently have nothing to offer other than "cops are bad" and 220lbs v. 90.

Have you ever had to arrest somebody? Have you ever done police work? Until you answer "yes" to both those questions, you simply have no clue how difficult it is to restrain someone enough to cuff them.

Judging by your responses in this thread, you would have prefered if the cop just let her go on her merry way.

If he had forcefully continued to try to cuff her, she would have been hurt, and you'd have something to ***** about. When he uses no-violent methods, you still ***** about it.

You have an agenda and a bias. That's fine. At least be honest about it.

[Henry]

JMS, you are making a lot of assumptions to justify your rage. Without any context I don't think it's appropriate to rush to judgement.

In my opinion the officer was trying real hard not to hurt this girl. He asks her over several dozen times to put her hands behind her back. He tells her repeatedly he doesn't want to hurt her. His voice cracks a few times, which to me says he's not comfortable with the situation and is unsure of how to proceed without hurting her. As a parent of an eight-year-old prone to fits of uncommon levels of hytserics I know the signs. There is a point where you have to decide between several options, none of which are pleasant, to resolve the situation before someone really gets hurt. When she bit him, he was at that point.

Now, maybe the girl wasn't doing anything wrong. Maybe she's a victim of being in the path of some cop on a power-trip. Maybe this cop's a first class jerk.

But I can't tell from that short clip. And I don't think you can either.

[Chachie]

Because they are children, and children don't fully understand the consequences of their actions as adults do? The fact is our legal system does not hold children responsible for their actions as it does for adults. Not children of 17 years much less 15 years. Not for murder, not for theft, and not for crimes many times worse than curfew violation or getting hystarical in the presense of a policeman.

:applause: :notworthy :applause: :notworthy

[iheartskins]

Ah, you guys know that in certain cases minors are tried as adults, right?

[rdsknbill]

JMS, you are making a lot of assumptions to justify your rage. Without any context I don't think it's appropriate to rush to judgement.

In my opinion the officer was trying real hard not to hurt this girl. He asks her over several dozen times to put her hands behind her back. He tells her repeatedly he doesn't want to hurt her. His voice cracks a few times, which to me says he's not comfortable with the situation and is unsure of how to proceed without hurting her. As a parent of an eight-year-old prone to fits of uncommon levels of hytserics I know the signs. There is a point where you have to decide between several options, none of which are pleasant, to resolve the situation before someone really gets hurt. When she bit him, he was at that point.

Now, maybe the girl wasn't doing anything wrong. Maybe she's a victim of being in the path of some cop on a power-trip. Maybe this cop's a first class jerk.

But I can't tell from that short clip. And I don't think you can either.

My point exactly. Thanks Henry

[Dictator]

Ah, you guys know that in certain cases minors are tried as adults, right?

I pointed that out.

I've also noticed that JMS is attempting to win the argument using semantics. Constantly referring to this girl as a "child". As if she is 8. She is 15 and fully aware that she shouldn't be out. Fully aware of the consequences of her actions.

[Chachie]

Ah, you guys know that in certain cases minors are tried as adults, right?

Not for violating curfew.

Any and all of you can stand on your "letter of the law" defense or your "he tried to tell her" line. Like I've stated repeatedly, you'd all beat JMS and I in a court of law.

Not one of you would remain in these stances, however, if that were your sister/daughter/girlfriend. No way. Not a chance on Earth. Nope. Uh-uh.

[Dictator]

Not for violating curfew.

Any and all of you can stand on your "letter of the law" defense or your "he tried to tell her" line. Like I've stated repeatedly, you'd all beat JMS and I in a court of law.

Not one of you would remain in these stances, however, if that were your sister/daughter/girlfriend. No way. Not a chance on Earth. Nope. Uh-uh.

Yes. I would. Without a doubt. I'd ask my wife/mother/gf/daughter/sister why they were being to f'ing stupid.

I learned a long time ago that if the cops are trying to arrest you, let them. Resisting only makes things worse.

[rdsknbill]

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2007/sep/25/30report-violent-crimes-on-the-rise/

In Martin County, where the overall crime rate increased by a rate of 10.4 percent between 2005 and 2006, the number of reported murders more than doubled. Indian River County's overall crime rate declined by 10.3 percent during that same time, but the number of murder reports also more than doubled.

Reports of forcible rapes and robberies also were up in Martin and Indian River, while aggravated assault reports were down.

"We know better than to take credit (when crime is down) and we don't take the blame (when it's up) either," Martin County Sheriff's Office Lt. Jenell Atlas said.

[redskinss]

Not for violating curfew.

Any and all of you can stand on your "letter of the law" defense or your "he tried to tell her" line. Like I've stated repeatedly, you'd all beat JMS and I in a court of law.

Not one of you would remain in these stances, however, if that were your sister/daughter/girlfriend. No way. Not a chance on Earth. Nope. Uh-uh.

actually thats an assumption on your part because i would have the exact same stance. I would be very upset at my child if she was resisting the arrest of a police offficer and then bit him. the only thing that i would be dissapointed about was the punch in the face. but my stance is not different because it was my child. i dont agree with it in this case but i feel it was a reaction to the bite.

[Chachie]

Yes. I would. Without a doubt. I'd ask my wife/mother/gf/daughter/sister why they were being to f'ing stupid.

I'm calling you a liar. The image of that happening to your own female family member would be too much to take. I know how I sound. I'm still saying it. Sorry, Bro. You lie and you don't even know it. You're better than that.

[redskinss]

I'm calling you a liar. The image of that happening to your own female family member would be too much to take. I know how I sound. I'm still saying it. Sorry, Bro. You lie and you don't even know it. You're better than that.

of course thats going to be your first reaction but it doesnt make what the officer did wrong because you know the person.

[iheartskins]

Not for violating curfew.

Any and all of you can stand on your "letter of the law" defense or your "he tried to tell her" line. Like I've stated repeatedly, you'd all beat JMS and I in a court of law.

Not one of you would remain in these stances, however, if that were your sister/daughter/girlfriend. No way. Not a chance on Earth. Nope. Uh-uh.

First off, let's all concede that we don't have all the facts. That's point one here.

And, Chachie, (I'm not saying this to be a d!ck), but if you're going to presume to know how I'd act in that situation, then how would you presume that my sister, daughter or girlfriend act in this situation? Would you presume they would cooperate with the police or would they behave as this girl has?

Barring the introduction of evidence outside of the video, I'd assume that any sister, daughter or girlfriend of mine would, if caught while breaking the law (be it out past curfiew or shoplifting--both, we'd likely concede to be minor crimes), cooperate with police.

The flip side of the "protect and serve" mantra has to be that citizens will give their police force the benefit of the doubt and cooperate in the hopes that the "right thing" will, ultimately one hopes, be done.

[Dictator]

I'm calling you a liar. The image of that happening to your own female family member would be too much to take. I know how I sound. I'm still saying it. Sorry, Bro. You lie and you don't even know it. You're better than that.

You seem to know an awful lot about people you don't even know. Me, the girl, others in the forum, the cop.

I'll say it again. My stance wouldn't change. In fact, I would become even more angry that they elevated a simple curfew violation to a felony assault. It would be the fault of my mother, sister, wife, etc and I would let them know that.