Frameshop: A Picture of the GOP on Civil Rights

[cjcdaman]

DjTj, I'm not going to quote your whole post, but I agree with h_h. I think his "translation", as you call it, fits perfectly. Unless a person's character doesn't really matter anymore???

Nothing that you're "entitled" to its more of the reality that as white males we automatically have an advantage in our culture. Now whether or not its our fault that its that way, or whether or not we resent that reality, the problem is that the reality of the situation exists. This is something that I have had to come to terms with in my own life, and as a white male I know that when I start talking in the church, school or elsewhere I'm most likely not going to have to overcome my gender or my skin color as I try to get my point across.

This is from you, ASF. Dude, or shall I say gal?, I bet you feel so guilty being up on the stage talking to your church. OMG, generations ago people that I never met and have no agreement with on their beliefs did many wrongs. Here I know, we'll give jobs to unqualified people because of the color of their skin. Also, all-black colleges are a GREAT thing, but all-white colleges are racist. Seriously, get a life and some testicles to go with it. I'm sorry, that's the way I feel.

h_h, I agree with basically everything you say in these "race" threads. Some have called you a racist and I guess I'll be labeled as one now, also.

ASF, I might possibly respond to your pansy assed response . . . but this is as far as I'm going to take it in putting you down. I apologize for that. But you are a ****ing girl.

[The Sisko]

It's bull****, and I'm sick of it. And frankly I could give a damn what people think about me for saying so. Wrong is wrong, and that system is wrong.

Oh yeah, and my friend the world-renowned surgeon...yeah...he pretty much commands immediate respect when he walks in the room too.

Wow, the poor downtrodden White man. Cry me a river.

Look, I don't agree with affirmative action either. However, nobody would agree to my solution. That is, get rid of it and replace it with a vigorous civil rights enforcement component...and by vigorous I mean fining companies found to discriminate incredibly large amounts of $$$$. Even more for repeat offenders.

And what then you ask, do I consider discrimination? What about this?

Among those with no criminal record, white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background. Racial disparities have been documented in many contexts, but here, comparing the two job applicants side by side, we are confronted with a troubling reality: Being black in America today is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one’s chances of finding a job.

We examined the hypothesis, derived from the aversive-racism framework, that although overt expressions of prejudice may decline significantly across time, subtle manifestations of bias may persist. Consistent with this hypothesis, self-reported prejudice was lower in 1998–1999 than it was in 1988–1989, and at both time periods, white participants did not discriminate against black relative to white candidates when the candidates' qualifications were clearly strong or weak, but they did discriminate when the appropriate decision was more ambiguous. Theoretical and practical implications are considered.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1467-9280.00262

What then would you say is the solution to all this wonderful "special" treatment minorities are getting? You may be sick of some other folks getting a scholarship here and there. I however, am sick and tired of not getting called back because of being pre-"evaluated" by virtue of my name or color.

[PeterMP]

It's a bit out dated, but I always thought that Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" would make a good general theme for Republicans to reach out to the African American Community.

[PeterMP]

Wow, the poor downtrodden White man. Cry me a river.

Look, I don't agree with affirmative action either. However, nobody would agree to my solution. That is, get rid of it and replace it with a vigorous civil rights enforcement component...and by vigorous I mean fining companies found to discriminate incredibly large amounts of $$$$. Even more for repeat offenders.

And what then you ask, do I consider discrimination? What about this?

What then would you say is the solution to all this wonderful "special" treatment minorities are getting? You may be sick of some other folks getting a scholarship here and there. I however, am sick and tired of not getting called back because of being pre-"evaluated" by virtue of my name or color.

Look, I'm not going to get into a big arguement w/ you about this, and I'll agree there are issues that need to be addressed, but I can post you similar studies regarding fat, short, bald, and ugly people. Should we be giving them special privilages too? The more reasonable route is to strictly enforce the laws that we have w/ respect to discrimination. I know at one point in time the courts said that stats couldn't be used to prove an organization is discriminating. I'm not sure if that has been over ruled, but if not then that is wrong, and changes should be made. The solution though is not preferential treatment especially for one group when many groups can make a similar charge.

[The Sisko]

I have seen those studies as well Pete and I don't dispute that. However, if what you say about the Supreme Court is true, i.e. that stats can't be used to prove discrimination, what then is their rationale for it ever being proved? If that's the case then it makes it impossible to prove reverse discrimination as well.

Again, I'm no fan of affirmative action. I think all too often it's a blunt instrument for a problem where perhaps a scalpel is more appropriate. Furthermore in the eyes of many Whites, it taints the achievements of any Black person as "just another racial set aside". The catch is that I don't see anyone coming up with any better solutions to a very real problem that study after study (and to a lesser degree, personal anecdotal evidence) shows is still out there and still causing harm.

[PeterMP]

I have seen those studies as well Pete and I don't dispute that. However, if what you say about the Supreme Court is true, i.e. that stats can't be used to prove discrimination, what then is their rationale for it ever being proved? If that's the case then it makes it impossible to prove reverse discrimination as well.

I don't think it was a Supreme Court decision, but a lower court decision. I was hoping you could tell me if it had been up-held.

[81artmonk]

:snore:

:bfd:

[The Sisko]

I don't think it was a Supreme Court decision, but a lower court decision. I was hoping you could tell me if it had been up-held.

Based on the info. discussed in the link below, it appears that statistical data is allowed to be used as evidence.

http://www.jstor.org/view/01621459/di985954/98p07082/0

[Teller]

Wow, the poor downtrodden White man. Cry me a river.

Oh, don't worry about me. See, by the time my kids are college age, whites will be a minority in this country (with hispanics becoming the majority). Hopefully affirmative action will still be in place then, so my kids can reap the benefits of the injustices being committed now.

[Burgold]

I remember when Gore decided not to campaign in the Red states, not to even put any money into advertising to get his message out into the Red States, because he figured that it wasn't his constituency and because it was wasted money. Well, he lost.

If nothing else, this is a bad PR move by the Republican candidates. It looks bad. It smells bad. It tastes bad. If they want to become President, they will be President of the United States of America and not just those who voted for them and like them.

I think the Republican reputation of being racist is exaggerated, but by ignoring groups like the NAACP, you send the wrong message and by not being willing to answer their questions, you miss the opportunity to open some eyes.

[AsburySkinsFan]

This is from you, ASF. Dude, or shall I say gal?, I bet you feel so guilty being up on the stage talking to your church. OMG, generations ago people that I never met and have no agreement with on their beliefs did many wrongs. Here I know, we'll give jobs to unqualified people because of the color of their skin. Also, all-black colleges are a GREAT thing, but all-white colleges are racist. Seriously, get a life and some testicles to go with it. I'm sorry, that's the way I feel.

ASF, I might possibly respond to your pansy assed response . . . but this is as far as I'm going to take it in putting you down. I apologize for that. But you are a ****ing girl.

*sniff sniff* I'm gonna cry. *sniff sniff*

Here try this hat on for size.

[Teller]

*sniff sniff* I'm gonna cry. *sniff sniff*

Here try this hat on for size.

No, no, no, ASF. It's "TURN the other cheek;" not "put your head between your cheeks." :laugh:

[Burgold]

I always thought it was a mistranslation. Isn't it,

"Turn the other Cheek before inserting head?

Not directed at anyone, just though HH's bit was funny.

[AsburySkinsFan]

No, no, no, ASF. It's "TURN the other cheek;" not "put your head between your cheeks." :laugh:

I always get those confused. And I'm sure I'll hear the "oh but you're a Christian, blah blah", that's right and when someone acts like an __________ then I'm going to tell them that they are acting like an ___________.

Oh and a parable for cjcdaman

There was once a powerful King who ruled his land with an iron fist, he enslaved many people and held them by force subject to his will. His kingdom grew in power, riches, and trade off the backs of those he held in bondage. Now, after the passage of time this King died, and his son inherited the throne. He decreed that all men and women should live free for all are created equal. So he gave them each an acre of land and a donkey.

Now are we to suppose that all the injustice that took place in this Kingdom was rectified with that acre of land and the donkey? And what are we to do about the fact that the new King still enjoys all the benefits that came from the hands of his tyrant father's hand, those same benefits that came at the expense of those he held in bondage?

Sins of the father....

[twa]

Sins of the father....

How many generations does that last?

And does the liability for the king's sins miraculously expand to everyone in the kingdom?

[Burgold]

I had this discussion yesterday. I think there's an honest question to made about opportunity versus equality. We all strive for equality and ideally, equality should mean equal, but we've all met brilliant people, and exceptionally raw talents who never had the opportunity to be mentored or to have access to the same networks or education... should those people have their potential supressed.

In other words, if I'm interviewing two candidates and one is a B+ and one is an A. Should I always choose the A even if I see in the B+ a greater potential? If, after a few years, that B+ can surpass the advantages of the A with an Ivy league education and become a unique and powerful contributer, is that person worth a bit of a gamble. It wouldn't be fair to the A, but the B+, who is a B+, only due to a lack of opportunity shouldn't be denied their potential either.

Edit: the problem I have with affirmative action is that the limiting of opportunity these days is often socio-economic and geographic as much as racial. I am not sure how you make sure that everyone is given an opportunity to reach their potential, but it's a shame when those who are struggling and trying are denied simply because they grew up in the wrong neighborhood, didn't have access to the same teachers, or social networks.

I'd love the answer to the how long question to be "until we get it right," but I'd also love fairness to extend to all the biases and not just a few. Power to the short, bald and fat!

[Teller]

Power to the short, bald and fat!

I've still got my hair, but to the rest of your point, this member of the congregation says, "AMEN!"

[cjcdaman]

Thanks to good ole' Time Warner, my cable and internet were off last night due to storms so I was unable to log on to see the responses. I had a few in me so if I offended anyone, I'm sorry.

Basically what I was getting at is . . . there is a HUGE difference between white POWER and white PRIDE. ASF is like a damn apologist.

[chomerics]

Maybe so, but my point about the dems only debating in front of homerific crowds and moderators stands. Meanwhile, didn't I watch a republican debate on MSNBC? Yep. I sure did.

You can't be serious. The GOP removes ANYONE with ANY link to the democratic party at the president's speeches. They ONLY speak to their base, and they remove anyone with any dissenting opinion. If your thoughts were not so warped, I would think that you really are not bright. . . but. . . knowing you are, it speaks to the amount of propaganda you are willing to swallow to back a failed party, and a failed ideology.

[Teller]

You can't be serious. The GOP removes ANYONE with ANY link to the democratic party at the president's speeches. They ONLY speak to their base, and they remove anyone with any dissenting opinion. If your thoughts were not so warped, I would think that you really are not bright. . . but. . . knowing you are, it speaks to the amount of propaganda you are willing to swallow to back a failed party, and a failed ideology.

And again, you put words in my mouth and argue with them. Did I say ANYTHING at all about Bush's audiences? Have you seen any of my posts lately calling for his impeachment? Go ahead, find one place where I've supported Bush in the last, say, eight months.

I was comparing apples to apples. Not apples to cucumbers. It IS a fact that the republican candidates for president in 08 have debated on left-leaning networks. It is ALSO a fact that the dems backed out of the FOX debate, despite the sponsorship of the Congressional Black Caucus.

And just for the record if you think conservative philosophy has failed or that the GOP is dead, you're only doing yourself a disservice. Sure, the president has damaged the party, but this ship is FAR from sunk.

[chomerics]

But can you give me even one example of something I can do, or am entitled to, as a white man in today's United States that an African American is not?

How about make a decent wage, or get hired for the good jobs, how about being a CEO, or an owner of a professional sports team?

Do you know that a black man working in the same exact position as a white man with the same exact experience makes only 75% of the white man's salary? Does that bother you at all? I doubt it because you are white. You will only go on to say "you can have a scholarship for a minority, but not me" yet you neglect to see the world around you. try to join a country club in the South if you are black. Try to find a job in corporate America, and make the same salary as white people. Look at the big picture before crying wolf about being a whit male. It is almost as bad as the Christians screaming that they are persecuted in this country because they can't have creationism taught in a public school :doh:

[chomerics]

I was comparing apples to apples. Not apples to cucumbers. It IS a fact that the republican candidates for president in 08 have debated on left-leaning networks. It is ALSO a fact that the dems backed out of the FOX debate, despite the sponsorship of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Just 2 years ago, MSNBC was a right leaning network don't forget. They go with the tide of the population, and yet they are nowhere near as left as Fox is right.

And just for the record if you think conservative philosophy has failed or that the GOP is dead, you're only doing yourself a disservice. Sure, the president has damaged the party, but this ship is FAR from sunk.

Wait and see what happens in 10 years. Bush has decimated the party, and for it to survive, you would have to splinter off from the Religious right. All of the Regan democrats have now switched back, and Bush has destroyed what took 2 decades of hard work by the GOP to do. He, and the GOP have destroyed traditional republican rhetoric, because they were in total control for 6 years. People could see what they did and did not do. No immigration reform, ludicrous spending, no fiscal responsibility, corruption, intimidation, lying to the public and everything else. Then on top of all the stuff Americans don't follow day to day, you have Iraq, the biggest political blunder in the history of our country.

Believe me, you are just seeing the beginning of the rise of the democrats, and you better get used to blue because you'll be seeing it for a LONG time.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Believe me, you are just seeing the beginning of the rise of the democrats, and you better get used to blue because you'll be seeing it for a LONG time.

[Teller]

How about make a decent wage, or get hired for the good jobs, how about being a CEO, or an owner of a professional sports team?

My boss will love to here that he makes less money than me. As will our executive vice president and COO. :laugh: You're telling me that blacks are not able to make a decent wage in this country? On account of firsthand observation, I call BS. Also, seeing as the three positions I mentioned are "good jobs," I again call BS. Oh, and is Secretary of State a good job? Is NFL head coach a good job? How bout NBA head coach? How bout general manager? :laugh:

Also, Mr. Robert Johnson would like to see you in his office. You know...the office of that professional sports team he owns. :laugh:

http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/2092/First_Black_owner_of_a_major_sports_franchise

The simple truth is, you can't name even ONE thing that I'm entitled to do, or have the opportunity to do that an African American can't in this country. Not...even...ONE.

Do you know that a black man working in the same exact position as a white man with the same exact experience makes only 75% of the white man's salary? Does that bother you at all? I doubt it because you are white. You will only go on to say "you can have a scholarship for a minority, but not me" yet you neglect to see the world around you. try to join a country club in the South if you are black. Try to find a job in corporate America, and make the same salary as white people. Look at the big picture before crying wolf about being a whit male. It is almost as bad as the Christians screaming that they are persecuted in this country because they can't have creationism taught in a public school :doh:

Actually the congressionally chartered mortgage lender that I work security for hires MOSTLY foreign nationals or naturalized citizens. My workplace happens to be about 60% middle eastern/Indian, and probably less than 25% native-born whites. And like I said, the executive VP at our site is black, the COO is black, the Chief Corporate Security officer is black, the training department manager is a black woman, etc, etc, etc.

You've made no argument. I asked for ONE thing that African Americans are not entitled to that I am, and the correct answer is "nothing." Thanks for playing.

[Teller]

Just 2 years ago, MSNBC was a right leaning network don't forget. They go with the tide of the population, and yet they are nowhere near as left as Fox is right.

Chicken****s. Period. That's what your candidates are. And a chicken**** is incapable of leading our country in times like these.

Wait and see what happens in 10 years. Bush has decimated the party, and for it to survive, you would have to splinter off from the Religious right.

Please. Political tides in this country turn faster than an F-1 car on steroids. Remember when the ho-mongerer/disbarred perjurer laid waste to the democratic party? And wow, just six short years later you win back the house and senate. Amazing, isn't it? I kind of hope Hillary gets elected; you know to speed up our rebound even more.

All of the Regan democrats have now switched back, and Bush has destroyed what took 2 decades of hard work by the GOP to do.

He's done damage, sure. How much? Neither of us know yet. But I do know this. Middle-class, hardworking TRUE Reagan Democrats are waiting for a true fiscal conservative. They want to keep their money just like I do, and when they find that person, they WILL vote for him.

He, and the GOP have destroyed traditional republican rhetoric, because they were in total control for 6 years. People could see what they did and did not do. No immigration reform, ludicrous spending, no fiscal responsibility, corruption, intimidation, lying to the public and everything else.

I largely agree with you here (save for the excessive hyperbole about the destruction of blah blah blah.) I'm thoroughly disappointed with the immigration situation, NSA, etc. But I realize this was one man in our party who happened to be a **** up. That doesn't change what I stand for.

Then on top of all the stuff Americans don't follow day to day, you have Iraq, the biggest political blunder in the history of our country.

I wouldn't have expected your ringing endorsement of slavery, the interment of Japanese-Americans in prison camps during WWII, or Watergate, just to name a few, but to each his own.

Believe me, you are just seeing the beginning of the rise of the democrats, and you better get used to blue because you'll be seeing it for a LONG time.

:yawnee:

Like I said, I hope Hillary gets elected. Because IMO, four years is NOT a LONG time. :laugh: