911 Mysteries

[Blighty Skins]

That's the spirit. You're cool, IMO, though you would be a lot cooler if you cut out the Passive/Agressive crap and all the smileys. To be fair, for someone with only 80+ posts, at least you try to add to the debate.

Seriously, you seem like a decent enough guy. I hope there's no hard feelings.

No hard feelings mate... I like the passive/aggresive crap and the smilies...it's the only reason I post. (oops)

[TradeTheBeal!]

No hard feelings mate... I like the passive/aggresive crap and the smilies...it's the only reason I post. (oops)

:logo: :applause: :2cents:

[Jaded-Dragon]

That's it - thanks Jaded! The guy in the scooby van whose name I cannot remember.

I respect your opinion on the 9/11 matter. I just personally feel it was not orchestrated by anyone other than Bin Laden and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed:2cents:

I thought there was new footage of the Pentagon attack other than from the security camera you cite???

Not to my knowledge, but I'd love to see one if there is.

[Ken]

That's it - thanks Jaded! The guy in the scooby van whose name I cannot remember.

I respect your opinion on the 9/11 matter. I just personally feel it was not orchestrated by anyone other than Bin Laden and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed:2cents:

I thought there was new footage of the Pentagon attack other than from the security camera you cite???

There was one from a hotel that also showed absolutely nothing!

[Chump Bailey]

There was one from a hotel that also showed absolutely nothing!

You might be interested in this - you too Jaded...

www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon121.swf

[btfoom]

This link shows the definitive proof that 9-11 was NO Conspiracy. It is the link none of the 'conspiracy addicts' want you to see. In the name of intellectual integrity and an open discussion that leaves no doubt please go to:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

Enough Said.

[Mad Mike]

You might be interested in this - you too Jaded...

www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon121.swf

Oh good god. :doh:

When an aircraft (something that is built with thin, lightweight componenets BTW) strikes a super hardened structure like the pentagon at 400 mph, while fully loaded with fuel, what do you expect to find?

And lets please remember the pentagon is build lke a fortress with blast resistant walls.

And were the thousands of people who were there that day in on it? What about the people who were on the plane? Where are they?

A few things to think about...

• many eyewitnesses saw a plane crash into the Pentagon

• the passenger and crew remains from American Airlines flight 77 were recovered at the Pentagon crash site

• eyewitness reports and photographs show plane debris at the Pentagon crash site

• passengers on American Airlines flight 77 made phone calls, reporting their aircraft had been hijacked

http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Jun/28-581634.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A61202-2001Nov20?language=printer

Investigators have identified remains of 184 people who were aboard American Airlines Flight 77 or inside the Pentagon, including those of the five hijackers

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

Let's give the lunacy a rest people.... PLEASE.

[Ken]

Oh good god. :doh:

When an aircraft (something that is built with thin, lightweight componenets BTW) strikes a super hardened structure like the pentagon at 400 mph, while fully loaded with fuel, what do you expect to find?

And lets please remember the pentagon is build lke a fortress with blast resistant walls.

And were the thousands of people who were there that day in on it? What about the people who were on the plane? Where are they?

A few things to think about...

• many eyewitnesses saw a plane crash into the Pentagon

• the passenger and crew remains from American Airlines flight 77 were recovered at the Pentagon crash site

• eyewitness reports and photographs show plane debris at the Pentagon crash site

• passengers on American Airlines flight 77 made phone calls, reporting their aircraft had been hijacked

http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Jun/28-581634.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A61202-2001Nov20?language=printer

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

Let's give the lunacy a rest people.... PLEASE.

Just look at your sig...it makes absolutely no sense. This is what us "loons" are dealing with.

You actually believe that Saddam had anything to do with the twin towers?

:laugh: :laugh:

[Mad Mike]

Just look at your sig...it makes absolutely no sense. This is what us "loons" are dealing with.

You actually believe that Saddam had anything to do with the twin towers?

:laugh: :laugh:

That poster came from one of Sadam's palaces. It is what it is. Like all images of him he had to approve it or it did not go up. At the very least, Saddam approved of 9/11. And quite frankly I do believe it is far more likely that Sadam supported 9/11 in some way than the loony theorys some people have. Saddam was known to support dozens of terrorist oganizations. Why not a secret agreement to support one more in their effort to attack his biggest enemy? I know... THAT is too hard for you to believe. :doh:

[mjah]

No, there is not an absence of total information. It's just an absence of information if you don't read and observe the information: just because you do not see this information does not make it non-existent.

So there's no absence of total information, then.

Good. Please explain to us precisely what happened. Your non-absence of total information should make it easy.

The so-called "conspiracy" movement isn't over: how can it be when conspiracies happen *every* day? After all, isn't the U.S. making the claim that Iran is conspiring to build a nuclear weapon, or has hostile intentions? Isn't the official story of 9-11 based upon a conspiracy by Bin Laden and Al-Qaida?

Oh, I agree that there obviously was a 9/11 conspiracy. Osama and his crew conspired to attack the WTC, Pentagon, and White House/Capitol. They mostly succeeded.

The crackpot conspiracy movement is far different. In it, everyone is a Fox Mulder. The real danger is from within, not from some far-flung enemy. Witness:

- JFK was assassinated by the CIA

- Roswell was covered up by "the government"

- 9/11 was a conspiracy by "the government"

- The Moon landings were a conspiracy by "the government"

- The Space Shuttle is a NASA lie that supposedly runs on tap water

It's amazing how secretive our government can be when it wants to -- particularly in light of the fact that it can't keep secrets two orders of magnitude smaller, like second-rate hotel break-ins and the hyperinflated price of a hammer.

You just appear to be oblivious that people are conspiring all the time.

One of us is oblivious. It isn't me, though. :laugh:

And are you saying that JFK and Rosewell are all wrapped up? A single shooter and weather balloon? Just because something is considered a "conspiracy theory" doesn't mean that it is baseless or it has been "solved."

I thought you said there was no lack of total information. Please explain your version of these events.

Please also explain your version of Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance, Lindbergh's baby, the Moon landings, and any other events you might recall that aren't "all wrapped up."

Even if you remove some of the points of contention surrounding 9-11, e.g. the collapse of the WTC, then you still have unanswered questions. And questions that are not as neatly answered as suggested by some folks on this thread.

I'll agree with that much. But there's a looooong way between realizing we don't know everything, and inverting Occam's Razor to explain it.

For example, even the 9-11 commission, which the Bush administration had attempt to prevent its creation, stated that the White House had actually distorted information that was presented to the commission. Why would the White House do this? Why would the White House stonewall and attempt to block the creation of the commission?

Uh, maybe because they're total control freaks, like most Administrations?

I mean, what independent activity has this White House not stonewalled and blocked? Why does any executive board at any company in the world prefer to act without a committee playing Monday Morning Quarterback?

They don't want their national security screw-ups catalogued and displayed before the nation and the world. They want to get re-elected. They want to keep focus on the people who actually committed the attacks -- not the idiots on this side of the ocean who bungled the defense mission.

And they want to avoid panic when people realize that there's truly no effective way to defend a nation against terrorism, as long as (most) personal rights are to be guaranteed. So they want to hide the ineptitude of our national defense, which was designed to fight bears, when the enemy turns out to be biting flies instead.

The problem is that any debate of 9-11 tends to concentrate on a few key events, while questions pertaining to other details of the attack are ignored.

I'd think you'd be in favor of this, as a holistic approach to 9/11 would lead one away from government conspiracies. But that's just one reasonable man's opinion.

There's no question that any administration will have trouble fighting terrorism if it approaches the problem like the Bush administration. They're trying to swat flies with sledgehammers. It doesn't work.

But the real "conspiracy" is that Bush's "war" on terror is like Saddam's non-existent nuclear weapons. They're smoke screens. If you want to attack either of them, you're pretty sure they're lying about the effectiveness of their latest toys... but you aren't completely sure.

Airline security fits into the same class of "government conspiracy." Just enough appearance of effectiveness to make the apparent risk of failure a significant deterrent to attacks... most of the time, anyway.

There are plenty of questions, and a few of them are interesting. But Occam's Razor really is your friend.

[TradeTheBeal!]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor

I like to think of Occam's Razor as a crutch for those educated beyond their intellect. But, that's just me.

[TheDane]

Wow, there's some stupid **** in that video. By stupid, I mean extremely dumb and opinionated.

There are only a few undisputable mysteries: speed of collapse, squibs, and the "thermite" theory. All of these except for the speed can be explained with other theories.

If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would focus on the speed and nothing else. Common sense would dictate that a naturally pancaking building would fall at least a few seconds slower than a falling ball.

[PokerPacker]

Quick - somebody link the website where a guy uses chicken wire and rubbing alcohol to prove it was a conspiracy!!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[PokerPacker]

This link shows the definitive proof that 9-11 was NO Conspiracy. It is the link none of the 'conspiracy addicts' want you to see. In the name of intellectual integrity and an open discussion that leaves no doubt please go to:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

Enough Said.

:rotflmao: i love the part with the folded 100 dollar bill

[Blighty Skins]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

[Mad Mike]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

Nice find.

[Dan T.]

Regarding the "lack of evidence" at the Pentagon, I think it is very important not to forget these voices. . .

Eye Witness Testimony

"Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. 'There was a big boom,' he said. 'Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.'"

- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001

"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."

- "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002

"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"

- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"

- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. 'There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,' he said."

- "Hell on Earth." UU World, Jan/Feb 20

"We were the only people, we think, who saw it live," Dan Creed said. He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off. "It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," Creed said. "I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up," - Ahwatukee Foothill News

Gary Bauer former Presidential candidate, "I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn�t until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment." Massachusetts News

Sean Boger, Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief - "I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building," Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief Sean Boger said. "It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building." dcmilitary.com November 16, 2001

"The only way you could tell that an aircraft was inside was that we saw pieces of the nose gear. The devastation was horrific. It was obvious that some of the victims we found had no time to react. The distance the firefighters had to travel down corridors to reach the fires was a problem. With only a good 25 minutes of air in their SCBA bottles, to save air they left off their face pieces as they walked and took in a lot of smoke," Captain Defina said. Captain Defina was the shift commander [of an aircraft rescue firefighters crew.] NFPA Journal November 1, 2001

Compiled at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

[dreamingwolf]

all you pro-government propaganda mouth pieces always put forward just text and data and you expect people to believe it, you need to do what the people who are speaking the truth do and put in a video with cool music in the background if you want to get people to believe it and obsess all over it.

[Skins24]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

Useless. These people don't care about evidence....

I'm in that thread btw

Haven't posted in that in months (years?) though. It's completely hopeless arguing with CTers. The already have it in their mind that the gov. was behind everything then they just try and twist and manipulate the evidence to fit their view. They aren't searching for the truth or else they wouldn't have come to the conclusion first.

(oh and if you think threads here get long, you should see some of the ones there :laugh: Only the daily babe and some of the game threads can touch them)

[cjcdaman]

Regarding the "lack of evidence" at the Pentagon, I think it is very important not to forget these voices. . .

Eye Witness Testimony

"Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. 'There was a big boom,' he said. 'Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.'"

- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001

"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."

- "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002

"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"

- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"

- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. 'There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,' he said."

- "Hell on Earth." UU World, Jan/Feb 20

"We were the only people, we think, who saw it live," Dan Creed said. He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off. "It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," Creed said. "I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up," - Ahwatukee Foothill News

Gary Bauer former Presidential candidate, "I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn�t until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment." Massachusetts News

Sean Boger, Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief - "I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building," Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief Sean Boger said. "It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building." dcmilitary.com November 16, 2001

"The only way you could tell that an aircraft was inside was that we saw pieces of the nose gear. The devastation was horrific. It was obvious that some of the victims we found had no time to react. The distance the firefighters had to travel down corridors to reach the fires was a problem. With only a good 25 minutes of air in their SCBA bottles, to save air they left off their face pieces as they walked and took in a lot of smoke," Captain Defina said. Captain Defina was the shift commander [of an aircraft rescue firefighters crew.] NFPA Journal November 1, 2001

Compiled at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

Thank you. Now, all the conspiracy nuts need to read this.

[mjah]

I like to think of Occam's Razor as a crutch for those educated beyond their intellect. But, that's just me.

Perhaps it is just you. Let's take a survey and find out.

MIT says: Mjah is okay.

Random Internet Conspiracy Weirdo says: Mjah is educated beyond his intellect.

MIT's main number is (617) 253-1000. You'd better give them a call and share your important opinions with them. They have plenty to learn from you.

For example, you could be the star subject in the irregular psychology lab!

Make this important call right now. Operators are standing by.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Perhaps it is just you. Let's take a survey and find out.

MIT says: Mjah is okay.

Random Internet Conspiracy Weirdo says: Mjah is educated beyond his intellect.

MIT's main number is (617) 253-1000. You'd better give them a call and share your important opinions with them. They have plenty to learn from you.

For example, you could be the star subject in the irregular psychology lab!

Make this important call right now. Operators are standing by.

Hey man, I was just giving my opinion of "Occam's Razor". I've frequently considered it to be indicative of intellectual laziness. I'm sorry I offended you. Though, to be honest, you come off as a bit touchy on the subject.

Perhaps, you doth protest too much? Or, maybe it's just me.

[mjah]

Just can't help yourself, huh?

There's the number. Give them a call. :laugh:

[vegeta613]

Thank you. Now, all the conspiracy nuts need to read this.

So we should read what you guys post as gospel while you totally ignore everything we post

One thing I can honestly say about the pentagon is simple

It would put all the conspiracy's to rest if they simply show the video

It doesn't matter what you believe all questions would be put to rest

A Hotel Rooftop and Gas Station caught the flight path and point of impact on tape which the feds took minutes after the crash

Why don't they just release the tape?? Why release a crackhead low quality video that answers nothing when they have tapes that show everything hidden from the public?

They could easily put everything to rest by showing the video but 6 years later it seems that will never happen

So people will still ask questions because things just don't add up

[Baculus]

I say this over and over again, and folks seem to have zero reading comprehension: We can remove theories about the WTC and the Pentagon and still have many questions left to be asked. I could 100% accept the NIST findings and still have these questions to be raised. And this isn't just for the sake of asking questions - just to be an annoyance - which somebody foolishly suggested earlier in the thread, nor just a mere desire to criticise the Bush administration. There are valid questions that have yet to be answered, but the Bush apologists on this thread would have you think otherwise. They would have you think that, first of all, it wasn't even Bush that was President during 9-11, and the entire blame should be laid on the previous administration. Apparently, there is no responsibility that should be accepted by the Bush administration - the Bush lackeys and gatekeepers at least would have you think so...

Someone also mentioned that the Bush administration stonewalled, for nearly two years, the 9-11 investigation since they did not want their weaknesses revealed. Is that really a valid reason to stonewall the investigation of the largest terrorist attack on this nation? Is that any reason to simply shrug off the current administration's complete unwillingness to examine why 9-11 happened? All the while, during those months and months when the Bush administration stalled any investigation, another attack could have occurred? But maybe you're right: Bush isn't a strong President, and instead of investigating why there were failures, he was more concerned with covering his own butt. Is that the main premise of why his administration did not want to investigate 9-11, and why he underfunded and stonewalled the creation of the 9-11 Commission?

That's absurd. Any attacks such as Pearl Harbor that have happened on American soil have always been immediately investigated - not months, but days later. Except for 9-11...

And nevermind the fact that the Bush administration ordered federal agents to stop investigating the Bin Laden family: I have yet to see anyone in this thread even respond to order W-99i. Instead of responding to this detail, they change direction and continually harp on red herrings.

Part of my issue with 9-11 is that, to this day, responsibility was never accepted for security lapses and for the events of that day. Instead, we get heming and hawing and slight of hand tricks, such as the 9-11 Commission. Meanwhile, we have open porous borders that anyone can crawl through, and our security at airports is still poor. No one was even fired for what happened on 9-11, and inspite of Bush's assertion, we did have exercises that involved planes striking the Pentagon and other structures.

Yeah, it sure it is a good idea to pretend that the Bush administration had nothing to do with the security of the United States leading up to 9-11 right? I mean, that can't be revelant since he is, I dunno, STILL President of the United States?

And some on this thread would also have you think that certain questions or theories are impossible, and yet, they display a remarkable lack of introspective into certain events in the past. Incidentally, the mention of Occam's Razor is ironic, considering that that this principle could have been used a great deal in the past by the current administration. When did we even see this principle used over the last number of years? It is simply disingenious to shrug off question or notions proposed in this thread by the mere mention of "Occam's Razor."