AJ_Skins Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 This is the last time I'm going to invest any significant effort into this issue, but I wanted to do a final fact-check on my position for some confirmation and closure, so I ran the numbers. I. If you take the average performance of Brunell and Ramsey in the games they started and finished in 2004 and extrapolate it over a 16 game season, as if each had started and finished all 16 games, this is what you get: BRUNELL AVG. 2004 2,376 yards 51.1% Comp. 14 TDs 10 INTs 6 Fumbles lost Total Turnovers: 16 QB rating: 67.4 Record: 6-10 RAMSEY AVG. 2004 3,001 yards 65.4% Comp. 18 TDs 14 INTs 2 Fumbles lost Total Turnovers: 16 QB rating: 82.5 Record: 7-9 II. If you look at both in terms of what they've done/did on average as starters under Gibbs, including last year's performances by Brunell, and extrapolate it over a 16 game season, you get this: BRUNELL AVG. SEASON UNDER GIBBS 2,893 yards 55.4% Comp. 19 TDs 10 INTs 6 Fumbles Lost Total Turnovers: 16 QB rating: 78.6 Record: 8-8 RAMSEY AVG. SEASON UNDER GIBBS 3,001 yards 65.4% Comp. 18 TDs 14 INTs 2 Fumbles lost Total Turnovers: 16 QB rating: 82.5 Record: 7-9 III. Finally, here are Brunell's numbers from last year, compared to Ramsey's average under Gibbs: BRUNELL 2005 3,050 yards 57.7% Comp. 23 TDs 10 INTs 6 Fumbles lost Total Turnovers: 16 QB rating: 85.9 Record: 10-6 (1-1 playoffs) RAMSEY AVG. SEASON UNDER GIBBS 3,001 yards 65.4% Comp. 18 TDs 14 INTs 2 Fumbles lost Total Turnovers: 16 QB rating: 82.5 Record: 7-9 So what does that all tell you? I. In 2004, Ramsey outplayed Brunell by a substantial margin on every measure, except turnovers, where they tied. Based on their performance up to that point, and based on the extremely long leash Gibbs gave Brunell in 2004, his benching of Ramsey after an injury in the first half of week one in 2005 was both indefensible and (clearly from Ramsey's perspective) unforgiveable. II. In assessing their total average performance as starters under Gibbs, including last season, Ramsey still holds a significant edge over Brunell on yards, completion percentage, and QB rating. On other measures they are basically even, with Brunell's only real advantage being that his overall winning percentage boasts a whopping one game lead over Ramsey. On statistics that measure performance as a passer, Ramsey was a better QB for Joe Gibbs than Brunell was. III. In 2005, supposedly Brunell's "great year", he actually only slightly edged out Ramsey's average starting performance on the substantially inferior 2004 team. That slight edge was primarily the product of an improved TD-INT ratio, with many of those TDs coming in short yardage situations, after Gibbs and his staff finally figured out a way to score in the red zone, which the team had been completely unable to do in 2004. In the first Giants game and the playoff game in Tampa, he threw for a grand total of 65 yards and 45 yards, respectively. In the playoff game against TB, he had a QB rating of 25.7. If you take out Santana Moss's 616 YAC, his yardage total is nearly identical to what he would have had in 2004. The key point in all of that information is that Mark Brunell's average performance as a starting QB on the drastically improved 2005 team that went to the playoffs was hardly any better than Ramsey's average performance as a starting QB on the 2004 team that went 6-10. So to all of you who have mercilessy trashed Patrick Ramsey's abilities and reputation, and probably played a role in his determination not to be a Washington Redskin this season, not to mention the way you've treated posters here, myself and others, who have dared to raise questions: Shove it. Later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyf316 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Good research. You know he's gone now, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 This is the last time I'm going to invest any significant effort into this issue... If only that were true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHUBAKAH Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 :munchout: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Gibbs II Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Look, clearly there was something that Gibbs saw. Everyone would have liked to see Ramsey get a "full and fair" chance but I dont think Gibbs would jeopardize the organization to keep "his boy" in there while someone was "clearly" outperforming them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ_Skins Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 Good research. You know he's gone now, right? Yep. Just putting a period at the end of the sentence for anybody with a shred of intellectual honesty. In particular, it obliterates the "Ramsey is a turnover machine" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 bottom line: Gibbs preferred Brunell and the Redskins are back as playoff contenders. All the rest of the charts and graphs to me are meaningless. This game is about winning. Arrington and Ramsey may go to other teams and be busts or heroes. To me it doesn't really matter as long as Gibbs finds the guys he needs to win something HERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 If only other teams saw the what ifs. We might have gotten more than a 6th round pick for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 bottom line: Gibbs preferred Brunell and the Redskins are back as playoff contenders. All the rest of the charts and graphs to me are meaningless. This game is about winning. Arrington and Ramsey may go to other teams and be busts or heroes. To me it doesn't really matter as long as Gibbs finds the guys he needs to win something HERE Agreed. Brunell was a winner in college, with J-ville, and with us. Ramsey, though I had high hopes for him, has never won diddly in college or with us. Thems the facts, pardner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ_Skins Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 bottom line: Gibbs preferred Brunell and the Redskins are back as playoff contenders. All the rest of the charts and graphs to me are meaningless. This game is about winning. Arrington and Ramsey may go to other teams and be busts or heroes. To me it doesn't really matter as long as Gibbs finds the guys he needs to win something HERE The only problem is we just traded away a 27 year old first round draft pick who still had room for improvement for a 6th round pick, in favor of a 36 year old QB whose performance will only get worse over time, and has in fact played worse than the 27 year old during the time they both played for the current staff. Oh yeah, that's right...we've got Jason Campbell on the bench. Maybe he'll be ready to play by 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouvan59 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 III. Finally, here are Brunell's numbers from last year, compared to Ramsey's average under Gibbs:BRUNELL 2005 Record: 10-6 (1-1 playoffs) RAMSEY AVG. SEASON UNDER GIBBS Record: 7-9 So what does that all tell you? Shove it. Later. Nice of you to just omit Ramsey's relief efforts which netted 2 TDs and 5 Ints yet include Brunell's relief effort this year which was one of his worst games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shallyshal Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 as a fan of ramsey's all i can say is that gibbs does not share either your view of ramsey or mine.. he is gone. all we can do is wish him well in his next situation and hope he gets a fairer opportunity. Edited to comply with forum rules. Shally: Please stop quoting long blocks of text. Thanks. ~ihs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ_Skins Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 Nice of you to just omit Ramsey's relief efforts which netted 2 TDs and 5 Ints yet include Brunell's relief effort this year which was one of his worst games. Nope. I did not include Chicago, or the second Giants game this year, nor did I include the first Giants game or the Bengals game from 2004. Only complete games started and finished by both players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuriousD Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 "Ramsey was a better QB for Joe Gibbs than Brunell was" Then how come Gibbs chose otherwise? Could it be Ramsey's 10 cent head atop the million dollar arm? Could it be that Ramsey couldn't hit the side of a barn from 25 yards out? Could it be that Ramsey just didn't read defenses well? Ramsey was here for 4 years and couldn't nail down the starters spot. What part of that don't you understand? HE HAD HIS CHANCE! He's gone. Perhaps you should follow. :helmet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Sorry, AJ, I didn't see the 4 touchdown performance we got from Brunell against Dallas in a key division game out of Ramsey. Ramsey lit up the Jets and Falcons to start off the 2003 season but he never really seemed to play well in the division or in games against quality opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Fair or not, Ramsey really blew the beginning of 2005. He threw at least one interception in every single preseason game. The offense also did not prosper under him. Gibbs still started him. In less than a half of regular season play, Ramsey led the Redskins to three turnovers and did not counter those with big plays or scoring. Now, no one knew the bears would have quite a d as he did, but the injury coupled with Ramsey's ineffectiveness in preseason, plus an absolutely abysmal first game certainly gave Gibbs no reason to feel comfortable with Ramsey. I agree that he got the short end of the stick, but he did enough at the end of 2004 to be named starter and enough at the beginning of 2005 to make us all feel squeamish. Also, Mark's td's weren't about the short passes. A lot of it were the Moss bombs and longer plays. Mark had a very good long game last year as well as a pretty good short game... at least until his injury. I do wish that Ramsey would have played in the final game and maybe the playoffs as I think Brunell was limited, but still... whether in spite of or because of Brunell we had one heck of a winning streak and tasted the good side of the NFL for the first time. Ramsey was treated unfairly, but he also brought quite a bit of it on himself. Finally, in 2004 remember that Gibbs began Ramsey on the shortest of leashes. IN the first Eagles game, the longest pass Gibbs allowed was a flare pass. Percentages are bound to be higher if you don't throw a ball over five yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 bottom line: Gibbs preferred Brunell and the Redskins are back as playoff contenders. All the rest of the charts and graphs to me are meaningless. This game is about winning. Arrington and Ramsey may go to other teams and be busts or heroes. To me it doesn't really matter as long as Gibbs finds the guys he needs to win something HERE Great post! :applause: :applause: Unfortunately, to some, having a successful program in place isn't enough. Some will always value players over the team. Gibbs hasn't done anything to make me question is abilities to put the right guys out on the field. To argue what someone might have done when that player wasn't able to unseat the starter is worthless. Go Skins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysaskin Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Turnovers cost games, the Skins D is a good Defencse but playing on a short field means that even good D's give up scores, second Brunell vs the Cowpukes (3-1) Ramsey (1-2) Brunell vs the Iggles (3-1) Ramsey vs the Iggles (0-4) Brunell vs the Giants (1-2) Ramsey vs the Giants (2-2) Brunell vs the NFC East (7-4) Ramsey vs the NFC East (3-8) IF you can't win the division you won't see the play-offs. Finally it comes down to managing the game putting together drives and generally winning, stats are nothing without the W's. Finally, Gibbs gave Ramsey a shot, he named him the starter and every pass attempt under Ramsey was cringe inducing during the preseason. But the one number that stands out is Brunell in 2005 (10-6) and (1-1) in the play-offs. However since I am scum in your view, you won't listen to this. I only hope that when Brunell and Skins win SB XLI, you don't come jumping on the Brunell Bandwagon:jetssuck: :helmet: Edited to comply with forum rules. Please DO NOT quote long blocks of text. It's in the rules. Thanks. ~ihs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ_Skins Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 "Ramsey was a better QB for Joe Gibbs than Brunell was"Then how come Gibbs chose otherwise? Could it be Ramsey's 10 cent head atop the million dollar arm? Could it be that Ramsey couldn't hit the side of a barn from 25 yards out? Could it be that Ramsey just didn't read defenses well? Ramsey was here for 4 years and couldn't nail down the starters spot. What part of that don't you understand? What part of the numbers don't you understand? Sorry to confuse you with the facts. HE HAD HIS CHANCE! Nope. :no: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtyler42 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 If "IF" was a fifth we'd all be drunk...Who cares about what Ramsey could have done last yr, the fact remains that he didnt do it and he is gone...Are you a Skins fan or a Ramsey fan whether he was treated fairly or not, life isnt fair and business isnt fair...Gibbs got a feeling that Brunell was the right fit, and it proved correct he led us to a 10-6 record and the 2nd rnd of the playoffs and had us in position to win that game if our D could have made some stops at the end of the game... Get over it and move on please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinpride1 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Anybody(besides me) going to be pulling for Ramsey to beat Chad out of the starting Q.b. job in New York.I think that Ramsey will do it!!!I think all the training that he got here from Gibbs is going to pay out for the Jets.I think Ramsey has learned how to manage a football game and if he can get any O-line protection at all he will give them a winning record.Best of luck to you Ramsey!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 A lot of people thought that Jay Schroeder was a better qb than Mark Rypien as a backup to Doug Williams but Gibbs thought otherwise and Rypien lead us to a Super Bowl while Schroeder was largely a bust thereafter in Oakland. Trust the head coach to find the players he needs to win with. The fact Joe Mendes thought Patrick Ramsey was worth a #1 pick 4 years ago doesn't mean that Joe Gibbs and Al Saunders are locked into keeping him or ensuring that in retrospect we hold out for a #2 pick that ain't coming :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairRedskin Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 And the award for most beatings of a dead horse goes to........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ_Skins Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 If "IF" was a fifth we'd all be drunk...Who cares about what Ramsey could have done last yr, the fact remains that he didnt do it and he is gone...Are you a Skins fan or a Ramsey fan whether he was treated fairly or not, life isnt fair and business isnt fair...Gibbs got a feeling that Brunell was the right fit, and it proved correct he led us to a 10-6 record and the 2nd rnd of the playoffs and had us in position to win that game if our D could have made some stops at the end of the game... Get over it and move on please... This is strictly about finishing up the arguments on this board. We'll see how we do with our QB position next year. That's where the rubber will hit the road. As for me, I'm sorry to say I'm not sure I have the same respect and admiration I once had for Joe Gibbs as a human being. As a football coach, we'll see how it turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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