Mark Brunell vs. Patrick Ramsey: The Final Word

[SkinsCrunkin]

This is strictly about finishing up the arguments on this board. We'll see how we do with our QB position next year. That's where the rubber will hit the road. As for me, I'm sorry to say I'm not sure I have the same respect and admiration I once had for Joe Gibbs as a human being. As a football coach, we'll see how it turns out.

Sir, don't like the decision, but do not question Joe Gibbs's integrity. First off he's the one getting paid millions to coach our beloved team, secondly he did more for this franchise than all the other coaches combined in our historic franchise. This talk is blasphemy and seriously is making me sick. Trust the man that turned the joke of the NFL into a playoff team and quit with your argument. I was upset about the whole Ramsey situation too but get over it or become a Jet's fan and stop beating a dead horse.

[s0crates]

Also, you say that Brunell barely quarterbacked the position better across 16 GAMES than Ramsey did over 5. Brunell, while battling injury and injury around him, something Ramsey didn't have to deal with. He spent all 5 of those games healthy. This part of your statement is totally unqualified and borders on the moronic.

Do you see now how extrapolation gets you into trouble?

This argument is almost too stupid for words.

This is the key point. What would you say, AJ, if we ommitted a few of Brunell's worst performances before comparing him to Ramsey?

[ArmchairRedskin]

What others? How about all the times he screwed up?

Check Brunell's games vs. Oakland, Arizona, Philadelphia and the two playoff games. All of these were pretty much must win and in all of them he screwed the pooch. Blame it on an injury if you want, but the one play that sums everything up is near the end of the TB game when he tried to force a pass over the middle to Jacobs and it was picked. Leading to Shepherd's dropped TD. That is a classic choke scenario, doing something you woudln't ordinarily do. And then vs. Seattle he couldn't lead the offense to any points? Are you kidding me. His only TD was a dropped INT. And the FG was off of a muffed punt. How is this guy a clutch performer?

And if you want you can look back at Brunell's playoffs stats for Jacksonville. I'll just let you know, it isn't real pretty...

Or we can look at Ramsey's career stats. They ain't pretty either.

34 TD's 29 Int's. Sacked 75 times. 23 times alone in 2004 where he only started half a season.

Brunell was sacked 15 times that year. 27 times all last year.

What about interceptions? 4% of Ramsey's passes were intercepted in 2004. Brunell had 2.5% in 2004 and 2.2% in 2005 intercepted respectively.

How about avoided the rush and taking off for a first down? How many times has Ramsey done that?

Ramsey headed to the Pro Bowl? Laughable prediction. Brunell headed to Super Bowl is a lot more likely.

[GSF]

This is the last time I'm going to invest any significant effort into this issue, but I wanted to do a final fact-check on my position for some confirmation and closure, so I ran the numbers.

I. If you take the average performance of Brunell and Ramsey in the games they started and finished in 2004 and extrapolate it over a 16 game season, as if each had started and finished all 16 games, this is what you get:

...blah, blah, blah...

So to all of you who have mercilessy trashed Patrick Ramsey's abilities and reputation, and probably played a role in his determination not to be a Washington Redskin this season, not to mention the way you've treated posters here, myself and others, who have dared to raise questions:

Shove it.

Later.

Oh yeah, that's right...we've got Jason Campbell on the bench. Maybe he'll be ready to play by 2010.

What part of the numbers don't you understand? Sorry to confuse you with the facts.

Nope. :no:

This is strictly about finishing up the arguments on this board. We'll see how we do with our QB position next year. That's where the rubber will hit the road. As for me, I'm sorry to say I'm not sure I have the same respect and admiration I once had for Joe Gibbs as a human being. As a football coach, we'll see how it turns out.

You're right. Joe Gibbs was one of my biggest personal role models for most of my life. I can't figure out a way to look at this situation that doesn't make him look bad. Not as a win-at-all-costs football coach, but as a human being. What's more, I think our QB situation for next year is questionable, at best.

No. I just think when you're in a position of leadership, you have a responsibility to treat the people you're in charge of equally and fairly. I don't think he did that, and looking at the numbers, the only explanation left is that he didn't want to admit that he was wrong about Brunell.

AJ,

You are so woefully confused and detatched from reality when it comes to the situation with Gibbs, Ramsey, and the Redskins that it has become pathetic to watch. Never in my 5 years here have I seen someone so wrong, so sure that they were so right. Let's look at some of your claims here.

First, you extrapolate 2 seasons worth of numbers for Patrick, when he only started and finished 7 games for Gibbs in 2 seasons. Then you go on a couple of posts later to say that you can't argue with the facts. It doesn't work that way AJ. Patrick did not put up those numbers, you created them and are arguing them as if they are facts. Brunell, in contrast, started and finished 12 games in '05, throwing 23 TDs to 10 pics with an 85.9 rating. Those are numbers that unfortunately Patrick has never even come close to putting up in his career.

Second thing. I'm on this board almost every day, and I've seen very few instances of Ramsey's abilities or reputation being "trashed". Ramsey has probably been the most popular player ever on this board. Brunell is the one that took a beating on here.

Third, why do you think Campbell won't be ready for 3 more seasons. That's a rediculous claim. I guarentee you Jason will get his shot much sooner than that.

Finally, I'm not buying that Gibbs was one of your biggest role models since you have completely misunderstood everything he's done and said since this whole qb debate began after the Bears game. Just the other day you made a post interpreting some of Gibbs' quotes to mean that he really didn't want to trade Ramsey, when it was so obvious to anyone who has followed Gibbs' career that he was saying Ramsey was on the way out. For you to go on to question Gibbs' character and leadership skills is just asanine. Gibbs has zero responsibility to treat anyone fairly, but he does have an absolute responsiblity to the whole team to do what he thinks gives the team the best chance to win. He was honest the whole way through, and his gut feeling turned out to be right on the money.

Dude, many of us here are huge Ramsey fans. He's tough, classy, and just a good guy all around. I really wanted him to lead this team to the promised land, but early last season it became apparent that it wasn't going to happen. You've taken this thing too personally, and it's leading you to make perposterous arguments.

[SkinsCrunkin]

Check Brunell's games vs. Oakland, Arizona, Philadelphia and the two playoff games. All of these were pretty much must win and in all of them he screwed the pooch. Blame it on an injury if you want, but the one play that sums everything up is near the end of the TB game when he tried to force a pass over the middle to Jacobs and it was picked. Leading to Shepherd's dropped TD. That is a classic choke scenario, doing something you woudln't ordinarily do. And then vs. Seattle he couldn't lead the offense to any points? Are you kidding me. His only TD was a dropped INT. And the FG was off of a muffed punt. How is this guy a clutch performer?

yea he's so not clutch I mean:

Dallas game(first): throws a td on fourth down to Santana to pull us within six

scrambles on 3rd down 20 some yards to get us a first, and then throws another bomb for the game winner

Denver game: he leads us down the field for a TD at the end of the game and if not for a great play by Denver at the end we're talking OT

Kansas City game: Running backs have fumble-itis and he's constantly running for his life from Allen yet he keeps us in the game with his smart play and moves the chain...

Tampa Bay(first game): constantly answering TB's scoring that day with driving the field on his own, our D couldn't stop a pee-wee squad that day but he lead us and if not for a botched call by the refs we win that game

Second Dallas game: I guess the plethora of TD's he threw that day just won't be enough for you will it? Oh yea, playoff implications were on the line if I remember correctly

Second Giants game: again, playoff implications, he gives a lead to ramsey, and sure ramsey threw a TD but if Santana doesn't make that ridiculous catch that pass looks ridiculous

I couldn't find the stat (maybe you guru's can) but I remember hearing one announcer say during the year that Brunell was the best 3rd down QB in the league, and especially in long yardage situations I remember him being extremely clutch, Mark was stellar this year, please just stop talking, you are trying to compare a QB who lead us to the playoffs to a QB who was only picked for his arm in the Spurrier era, give it a rest.

[ouvan59]

Well, well, well. More under the folder of "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics."

Seems our thread starter has fudged the numbers of Ramsey to suit his purposes.

Here are the numbers that were presented as an average season for Ramsey under Gibbs. He conveniently only included the numbers for Ramsey as a starter because, well Ramsey's relief efforts were, while exciting, subpar. Just for arguments sake let's give him that concession.

RAMSEY AVG. SEASON UNDER GIBBS

3,001 yards

65.4% Comp.

18 TDs

14 INTs

7 Fumbles lost

Total Turnovers: 21

QB rating: 82.5

Record: 7-9

Here are the actual numbers for Ramsey in the 8 games he started under Gibbs. (Extrapolated to full season).

2,836 yards

64.9%

16 TDs

14 INTS

8 Fumbles lost

Total Turnovers: 22

QB rating 80.9

Record: 8-8

I have also tallied both player's numbers for all the games they have played for Joe Gibbs.

Here are Brunell's numbers:

4,244 yards

54.9 %

30 TDs

16 Ints

9 Fumbles lost

Total Turnovers: 25

42 Sacks

QB Rating 78.3

For fairness sake I have based Ramsey's numbers on the same number of passing attempts that Brunell has had.

4,522 yards

61.9 %

25 TDs

27 Ints

8 Fumbles lost

Total Turnovers: 35

63 Sacks

QB Rating 76.4

What this tells us is what everybody already new. Patrick Ramsey does a pretty good job moving the ball but takes too many chances.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Second Giants game: again, playoff implications, he gives a lead to ramsey, and sure ramsey threw a TD but if Santana doesn't make that ridiculous catch that pass looks ridiculous.

Oh please...Ramsey had JUST as much to do with that win as Brunell did...that's undeniable. "He gives a lead to Ramsey"..it was a four point lead in a must-win game!..That's hardly anything to consider comfortable. Not to mention that Moss had to adjust a helluva lot more for Brunell's TD pass in the first quarter than he did for Ramsey's TD pass in the third...AND he had his man beat over the middle by like 5 good yards. Brunell's pass to Moss was ridiculously off-target, far more than Ramsey's. And we'll just conveniently forget that Brunell threw an INT that was returned for a touchdown in that game...

And I'm speaking from a position of understanding why Gibbs let Ramsey go!!

[AJ_Skins]

OK. I see. You did not notice that Ramsey had several pass attempts in games he didn't start. Surely, if you had, you would have included them in your inquiry. It would be cheating to omit available data in an honest inquiry. You must have just missed those games.

In 2004, Ramsey threw 10 TD's and 11 INT's in a little over 8 games. If I "extrapolate" that over 16 games, I get about 20 TD's and 22 INT's. These numbers, because they include a bigger sample, are more statistically accurate. Oh, and Ramsey's QB rating in 2004 was 74.8, a far cry from the 82.5 you got by ommitting readily avaialable data.

Most of your "findings" seem to be based on this sort of misrepresentation. You have omitted inconvenient facts. As such, I don't put much stock in your analysis.

I only counted complete games where they started and finished, because there is a big difference between preparing all week in practice to play and being thrown in during the second half of a losing effort. The only exception was that I left in the Bears game in 2005 for Brunell for the sake of not having to individually add up and avearge the other 15 games.

[Whiskeypeet]

What IS interesting is to see how people refuse to see the entire tapestry of Mark's play here. Will you ever swallow and step up like a man to say, "you know what, putting aside Patrick's play one way or another, Mark just isnt' getting it done and he is the primary reason we looked like garbage on offense at the end of last year?" And if he fails to deliver this year or is beat out by Campbell (which if he's good enough, he shouldn't be) will you step up then?

Funny that you ask because I already feel that way. Specifically, although I believe Mark's play last year was a major factor for the team's sucess, I believe that his play was also what often held the offense back.

Unecessary sacks, poor pocket presence, inability to see the entire field. Mark displayed many of those things over the year....even when he was playing well. So there you have it.

The issue here though, one that for some reason you and others won't let go of even now that Patrick is gone, is that PR would not necessarily have been a better option (last year or in the future). And, as you say if Patrick struggles in NY it will "be apperant." So does that mean you will just brush it under the rug?

Do those that don't agree with you get to have this crap shoved down their throats yet never get to hear you eat crow because "it will be apperant?"

[AJ_Skins]

Indeed, Ramsey would be better able to withstand injury. However, he would also take many more sacks then Brunell would. We all know that due to his time as a rookie with Spurrier, where according to many, his development was tragically skewed.

Ok, I looked at sacks. Using the same approach as the earlier statistics, Ramsey averaged 2.3 sacks per game, and Brunell averaged 1.8. In other words, Ramsey could be expected to take an extra .5 sacks per game.

[The Batman]

Ok, I looked at sacks. Using the same approach as the earlier statistics, Ramsey averaged 2.3 sacks per game, and Brunell averaged 1.8. In other words, Ramsey could be expected to take an extra .5 sacks per game.

Thank you sir, for proving my point.

What is one half of a sack per game when we use your darling method of extrapolation to stretch it over an entire season?

8 sacks. That's Phillip Daniels' entire season last year.

And just one sack can end a QB's career, or severely hamper his play. Not to mention 8 of them. Therefore, the tendency to be injured swings back in Ramsey's favor. Sure, Brunell's older, but according to your logic, Ramsey spends a hell of a lot more time on his back.

:logo:

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Funny that you ask because I already feel that way. Specifically, although I believe Mark's play last year was a major factor for the team's sucess, I believe that his play was also what often held the offense back.

That's my view as well...

[Chachie]

Joe Jackson Gibbs made the call. However, it kills me to see us let go of such a beloved and tough Redskin like Patrick. It's super-unfortunate. I'm a Mark Brunell fan, though. The man has too much experience to be ignored... And a great thing going w/ Santana Moss, BTW.

[AJ_Skins]

You've taken this thing too personally, and it's leading you to make perposterous arguments.

No, we just see things differently.

[skinsbosoxheels]

First of all...I hate seeing Ramsey gone...would have loved to see him stay and play...If the Skins kept Ramsey..Brunell..and Skins would have drafted Heath Miller with that 25th pick last yr along with all the FA signings this yr...how would all you feel about a SB run this yr and the yrs to come...probably pretty damn good...all the so-called experts are saying the only real weakness the Skins have is at QB...we have a 36 yr old and a 2nd yr QB out of Auburn who had 1 good yr handing the ball off to 2 top rb's...Does Gibbs have a hidden agenda...does he owe Brunell a SB ring from his initial encounter..or is Gibbs trying to be the only coach to lead a black QB to the SB...not once but twice..time will tell.

[jimster]

here's an interesting stat.

Ramsey was 10-14 as a starter for the Redskins - only 2 road wins.

10 wins is what Mark Brunell had LAST YEAR.

[jimster]

Yep. Just putting a period at the end of the sentence for anybody with a shred of intellectual honesty.

intellectuall honesty? From AJ? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[jimster]

AJ,

Your "Patrick didn't get a chance" argument has been proven wrong every time you briung it up. - It aint changing:laugh:

Patrick got 2 years of an opportunity to improve. - You say "that doesn't count" - But in the real world it does.

[jnhay]

Your ridiculous, did you look at the records of those QBs? Brunell 10-6, Ramsey 7-9. Do you know what that means? Brunell played well enough for the Skins to win, Ramsey didn't.

You don't take into account that when teams are playing from behind, they throw more often, and get more yards, therefore inflating the losing QBs stats.

[Jumbo]

Worry not...should AJ move on to the next plane...young padiwan DaSchwartz's training is nearly complete and the seat on the council will again be filled by one prepared to resist the dark force of Gibbs and all his worhipping Storm Homers...

[AJ_Skins]

here's an interesting stat.

Ramsey was 10-14 as a starter for the Redskins - only 2 road wins.

10 wins is what Mark Brunell had LAST YEAR.

W-L is the most important stat on one level, but at the same time, we all know there are 53 other players on the team, and a lot of other factors, in this case the biggest of which goes by the name of Steve Spurrier.

If you compare them on that stat in the one set of circumstances where they were dealing with a similar situation, 2004, Ramsey's W-L percentage was better.

[jimster]

W-L is the most important stat on one level, but at the same time, we all know there are 53 other players on the team, and a lot of other factors, in this case the biggest of which goes by the name of Steve Spurrier.

Oh, so now Gibbs DOES know what he's doing?:laugh:

[AJ_Skins]

Oh, so now Gibbs DOES know what he's doing?:laugh:

Jerry Glanville was a better NFL coach than Steve Spurrier. Besides, I never said "Gibbs doesn't know what he's doing".

[jimster]

If you compare them on that stat in the one set of circumstances where they were dealing with a similar situation, 2004, Ramsey's W-L percentage was better.

So a healthy Ramsey was better than an injured Brunell.- Agreed.

But when Brunell got healthy...

[Jumbo]

There's no "gotcha" here except for a couple of souls.

I thought you had already identified yourself as one of those couple of "gotcha" souls. If I am in error, please advise. I do not want to misrepresent you, even silently.