Mark Brunell vs. Patrick Ramsey: The Final Word

[JimmiJo]

How long will we have this discussion?

Will we be having this discussion next year everytime we lose with MB (if that happens) and they win with Ramsey (if that happens)?

Debate and discourse are important, but there should be some give and take. I've found that in this discussion, there never seems to be give on the part of the Ramsey apologists...

[Om]

That people are still trying to make this about stats is utterly mind-boggling.

The reasons Mark Brunell played for Joe Gibbs, and Patrick Ramsey did not, have precious little to do with statistical projections and breakdowns.

Seriously, if that's something that even has to SAID to anyone claiming to have watched this team play on a regular basis, be wary. Unless you simply enjoy internet posturing for it's own sake.

[Newera]

Jason will make us forget all this hypothetical nonesense. Gibbs did not like Ramsey, and last I checked, he's da boss. The boss that has put us back in the playoffs in his second year.

[Dirk Diggler]

Fine. You want a winner. You take Patten. I'll take Moss.

If Ramsey ever had a Moss-like season at QB, we wouldn't be having these conversations. He's only had a handful of Moss-like games.

[Newera]

Jason will be the best quarterback in the 2005 draft.

[Hooper]

I have yet to read this thread, but, I assume we've all laughed loudly at the attempt to project out numbers for a QB who played two halves of football?

Ramsey isn't here for a reason few on his side seem to be willing to grasp, INCLUDING Ramsey himself. Ramsey scared every coach he's had, from Spurrier on, because he could not see the field. That's essentially it. The best description I've heard on Ramsey is one from a guy in the Hall of Fame who played the position. He said, "Ramsey is the kid with a great arm who some coach said, 'Let's make him a QB.'"

A QB is more than a javelin thrower with a football. There's a mental aspect to it that Ramsey lacked. Ramsey was very bright and dedicated to understanding the game. He knew everything he was supposed to do. He was very precise in this. Very intelligent. He just wasn't natural. He lacked two things.

First, he couldn't come off his primary receiver quickly. He knew to do it. But, he would linger with his primary guy too long, taking other options away because he couldn't pull the trigger fast enough. Ramsey lacked the internal, natural clock to know when to get rid of the ball. While accurate, Ramsey was late with the ball consistently enough to prevent bigger plays.

Perhaps most critically, what Spurrier saw right away and what Gibbs, Musgrave and the rest tried to help him with was the fact he can not make the throw between layers of the defense at all. It's almost as if he has no dimensional vision, but, mostly it's just he's a javelin thrower who never learned touch. When Ramsey threw all those interceptions against the Giants, then, kept peppering the hands of defenders against the Bengals in 2004, Gibbs knew he had to slim down the offense because running routes that required throws over one level to the next was something that would have killed this team.

Literally, Ramsey scared coaches to death in the pros, including Spurrier because of that critical lack of touch. It's why so much time was spent trying to teach him how to pull the string. To get him to develop touch. ALL of us saw that this preseason. We all saw Ramsey's throws lofted so much. You could see the focus he had on trying to develop it. It was just not something he had.

Ramsey needed to be in a timing-based offense where he could drop and throw. Where everything he did was based solely on that beautiful arm he has. In both systems here, he was asked to play such a varied game. Jon Jansen admitted Patrick struggled with "trust" of his receivers where he couldn't let himself throw the ball on time for fear the receiver would break the wrong way and it would lead to a bad interception or play.

He rarely threw to a receiver who wasn't looking his way because of this. You never saw the ball released while the receiver had his back to him, developing his route, then cutting to have the ball arrive on the cut. Ramsey's a GREAT guy and a good kid and a talented guy at QB in some ways. He's just not made for intuitive systems like we have run. He's made for more programmatic systems that require certain things and focus on arm, accuracy and timing.

He'll do well if he finds that situation. He won't if he does not.

Fantastic analysis of Ramsey's game, Art. You really nailed it. Ramsey's flaws have always been so evident to me -- that laser arm makes you forget them for a bit, but then someone blitzes him and those flaws come roaring back.

The Jets are supposedly trying to trade up to take Matt Leinart. If they do, Ramsey will be one of four qbs on the roster with Bollinger, Pennington, and Leinart. If Ramsey performs poorly in training camp and in preseason like he did here last year, he might in fact get cut. Talk about leaving a bad situation for another.

[Art]

Fantastic analysis of Ramsey's game, Art. You really nailed it. Ramsey's flaws have always been so evident to me -- that laser arm makes you forget them for a bit, but then someone blitzes him and those flaws come roaring back.

The Jets are supposedly trying to trade up to take Matt Leinart. If they do, Ramsey will be one of four qbs on the roster with Bollinger, Pennington, and Leinart. If Ramsey performs poorly in training camp and in preseason like he did here last year, he might in fact get cut. Talk about leaving a bad situation for another.

Thanks Hooper.

This element of throwing to the receiver on the cut is just not something most people have the capacity to understand. There's a reason we developed so many more big plays last year with Brunell as the QB. It's because the ball would arrive at the designed point at the designed time, allowing the receiver to make a break on the move. With Ramsey, the receiver would get the ball hot, but late. This allowed the defense the advantage as they were already closing when the ball was in the air. With Brunell, the ball was in the air as both the receiver and defender were closing, allowing quick moves out of tackles for very large gains.

Now with better weapons at receiver, you could really see the type of explosive offense we haven't had here for a long time.

[SkinsCrunkin]

You can compare that by doing what I did, which is to add up their total stats for all of the complete games they played, divide those numbers by the number of games, and then multiply it by 16 to see what it would look like over a full season.

Anyone who has ever taken elementary statistics knows that would never fly in the scientific community, your still taking a smaller sample size from Pat then Brunell, still skewing the stats no matter how you look at it. It has bias which is the fundamental no-no in any statistic measurement.

[AJ_Skins]

Both he and Brunell are fanatical Christians and evangelize whenever possible. The two have bonded and actively recruit others into the fold as a major part of their lives.

Ramsey's an intellectual and doesn't buy in to the Christian athlete business, a real shortcoming.

I agree completely with everything you said up to that point. From what we know, Ramsey is just as "fanatical" as Gibbs and Brunell. I think that's a false assessment.

[AJ_Skins]

I have yet to read this thread, but,

It's always good to trash something you haven't read...

I assume we've all laughed loudly at the attempt to project out numbers for a QB who played two halves of football?

The numbers are based on complete games each player started and finished over the past two seasons. In Ramsey's case, there are seven, the last seven games of the 2004 season. When you make that kind of statistical projection, the more data you have, the more accurate the projection becomes. In this case, you are extrapolating a 16 game season from 7 games. That's not a stretch at all. For that matter, I didn't even have to project them over a 16 game season. I could have just given each players average in terms of a single game. I thought this way gives a better mental picture of the comparison, though.

First, he couldn't come off his primary receiver quickly.

And Brunell does? Brunell's read goes like this: Moss, out of bounds. If he has all day to throw, it goes Moss, Cooley, out of bounds. Occasionally, when he's feeling really adventurous, it goes Moss, Cooley, Portis, out of bounds.

Jon Jansen admitted Patrick struggled with "trust" of his receivers where he couldn't let himself throw the ball on time for fear the receiver would break the wrong way and it would lead to a bad interception or play.

And that's Ramsey's fault, not the constantly revolving cast of mediocre receivers, changing coaching staffs and being yanked in and out of the game. OK.

[ZoEd]

AJ I just found this while doing some research on Campbell and I think it just about sums up why PR just wasn't Gibbs' guy. I liked PR as much as you and think that he was given a raw deal but there has to be some basis for Gibbs and other coaches to be so down on him. PR has everthing going for him except for being able to feel the blitz. I hope he develops the ability and succeed's. Well just have to wait and see.

The guys that can move around, that's a huge advantage, a guy who can give you three or four plays a game like that. But it has to be a natural thing. The way Michael Vick gets out of the pocket is just the way he is. You can't coach that. The great ones can feel (the rush) coming without seeing it. That's one of the most important things for a quarterback to have other than being super tough and super smart. The arm is way down the list. Dan Fouts didn't have the arm, but he was a great quarterback. If you don't have a sense of where (the rush) is coming from, you're going to be more prone to getting the ball knocked out. Guys that have that sense are really special."

—Redskins coach Joe Gibbs

Just wanted to quote myself to make sure you read this post. Like I said above, I liked Ramsey A LOT and hoped he would have faired better. To piggie back on what Art said, I think Gibbs quote about Campell paints a clear picture as to why he didn't keep PR as our starter and instead went with MB who clearly doesn't have this problem.

I was a MB hater when PR was benched and you can go back and read some of my earlier posts and see that. However, by debating with members of ES and spending hours on this board dwelling on our QB issue I've come to grips with the fact that MB was the better option for our offense. I'm sure PR could have won some games on his arm alone and I'm sure he probably would have lost a few with his mistakes as well. Bottom line MB wasn't going to lose games for us.

Good luck to PR I hope he does well. I wish I could have went hunting with him while he was in VA, there's some monster bucks in Northern VA. I've got a nice one hanging on the wall.

[PotomacSkinsFan]

11 lost fumbles is something brunell has to improve on drastically

[AJ_Skins]

11 lost fumbles is something brunell has to improve on drastically

The fumble stats are most likely incorrect. The official NFL stat page shows how many times the QB fumbled the ball, and how many times he recovered it, but it doesn't show clearly how many of the fumbles were lost to the opposing team. I've probably given both Ramsey and Brunell too many fumbles. I've been looking for a resource that gives that number, but haven't found one yet. If somebody can point me to it, I'll fix it. The rest of the numbers are accurate.

[AJ_Skins]

Just wanted to quote myself to make sure you read this post. Like I said above, I liked Ramsey A LOT and hoped he would have faired better. To piggie back on what Art said, I think Gibbs quote about Campell paints a clear picture as to why he didn't keep PR as our starter and instead went with MB who clearly doesn't have this problem.

Right...the problem is, Gibbs's preference for Brunell and Campbell was based on the old offense he was running the past two years, which wasn't very good, and wasn't particularly concerned about throwing the ball down the field. Now that Saunders is here, we don't have a QB that can run his offense.

[jimster]

Art, Once again you hit the nail on the head.

I agree.

The defense rests.

[ZoEd]

Right...the problem is, Gibbs's preference for Brunell and Campbell was based on the old offense he was running the past two years, which wasn't very good, and wasn't particularly concerned about throwing the ball down the field. Now that Saunders is here, we don't have a QB that can run his offense.

AJ I think Saunders and Gibbs are smart enough to build this offense around the strength of our players. With the recent WR acquisitions opening up our offense MB will succeed, who am I kidding Heath Shuler could succeed. PR will be better off in NY, he'll probably be starting by mid-season and I hope he proves all of his haters wrong.

A 6th is a joke though. Even if you hate Ramsey, as a Skins fan you should be pissed that's all we got for him.

[jbooma]

Right...the problem is, Gibbs's preference for Brunell and Campbell was based on the old offense he was running the past two years, which wasn't very good, and wasn't particularly concerned about throwing the ball down the field. Now that Saunders is here, we don't have a QB that can run his offense.

How do you know this you talked to Gibbs :doh:

His preference was to the QB that would win games, and it is clear that Ramsey was not the QB he thought could. The problem with Ramsey was his arm, he was not good with the touch throws or the deep balls. Pat is great on the crossing routes and when you need to put some zip on the ball, but he was not great on the long throws.

I see you have not debated anyone on when they have questioned his mental skills only the numbers regarding fumbles etc...

Rypien performed pretty well in this offense and he had a cannon like Pat, so skill is not the primary concern for Gibbs, it is leadership and mental ability. Pat was never though of as a good leader, players have even said that about him.

[jimster]

And Brunell does? Brunell's read goes like this: Moss, out of bounds.

I guess that's why Cooley just broke a record for receptions by a TE - 'cause he only throws to Moss?

...maybe, just maybe the reason Brunell didn't throw to others receivers often has something to do with the fact we just signed two?

[jimster]

A 6th is a joke though. Even if you hate Ramsey, as a Skins fan you should be pissed that's all we got for him.

what we got for him wasn't due to anyone's incompetence. It had more to do with the satuaration of available QB's this year. - If Ramsey was say, 1 of 2 availble QB's this year instead of 1 of 12, we probably could have gotten a 4th for him. - We didn't keep him because I'm sure he was promised we wouldn't.

[The Sir]

23 TDs

10 INTs

Record: 10-6 (1-1 playoffs)

Looks good to me

[AJ_Skins]

I found the right fumble numbers and corrected it. As it turns out, Brunell and Ramsey's likelihood to turn the ball over is identical across all three sections...on average, about one a game. Brunell is more likely to fumble, Ramsey more likely to throw an interception. Personally, I think fumbles are a much less forgiveable turnover for a QB, and usually hurt the team more than an INT, but what do I know. For the record, three of Brunell's fumbles in 2004 were returned by the opposing defense for touchdowns.

[AJ_Skins]

I see you have not debated anyone on when they have questioned his mental skills only the numbers regarding fumbles etc...

I think all he needed to improve the mental aspects of his game was time on the field in a stable environment. The fact that his performances were nearly identical to Brunell's even with all of his "mental deficiencies" speaks volumes about just how bad this decision was.

Ramsey also never had a chance to throw to Santana Moss with his 600+ YAC in 2005. Take that yardage out Brunell's total and he looks anemic. As a matter of fact, he looks almost exactly like he did in 2004 when he was "hurt".

[jbooma]

I think all he needed to improve the mental aspects of his game was time on the field in a stable environment. The fact that his performances were nearly identical to Brunell's even with all of his "mental deficiencies" speaks volumes about just how bad this decision was.

Ramsey also never had a chance to throw to Santana Moss with his 600+ YAC in 2005. Take that yardage out Brunell's total and he looks anemic. As a matter of fact, he looks almost exactly like he did in 2004 when he was "hurt".

Yep he had a rating of 85 in 2004 :doh:

600 yards does not change a rating from 69 in 2004 to 85 in 2005 or change his completion % from 49 to 58.

Mark had a rating of below 80 twice in his career in 2004 and his rookie season. Pat has never been able to break 76 for a season yet you somehow believe they were identical in Washington.

Pat also had more interceptions then TD's in 2004 not Mark.

[jimster]

you're getting ridiculous. - Now you're taking other players out of the equation to doctor your stats again?:laugh:

so maybe if Ramsey had 5 Santana Moss's he'd be waaaay better than Brunell.

[TheSchwartz]

You realize that Brunell got the Skins into the playoffs, right?

Let it go, Ramsey's a Jet now.

You realize that Clinton Portis, Santana Moss, and the Redskins defense got this team into the playoffs and on to the 2nd round right?

I had to laugh at the guy who said Brunell put this team on his shoulders in the Dallas game when all Brunell essentially did was lean on Santana Moss to get the job done.

Brunell will be the starter, and everyone on this board will be calling for his head by week 9, and Gibbs will continue to play his sorry ass because there isn't another viable option on the team. The best QB on the Redskins just signed a 7 year 31 million dollar deal to be the 3rd WR and PR...