jrockster21 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Do you honestly believe these individuals (whether kids or not) were just on the way to the public library and dragged away for a beating? Sorry, but I have to believe they were harassing these troops. And if you do believe these folks were 'innocents' in this whole episode, theres probably no point in continuing the discussion. Having been in these soldier's situation, its not surprising I have some empathy for their dilemma. You obviously haven't experienced that kind of situation.I'm supporting 99% of what you've said...and even if they were 'thugs', I'm sincerely opposed to these kinds of tactics. What more do you want? I agree...chances are these soldiers didn't just go grab some random youths off the street to beat up. I mean...you have to give them a certain level of credibility... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Do you honestly believe these individuals (whether kids or not) were just on the way to the public library and dragged away for a beating? Sorry, but I have to believe they were harassing these troops. And if you do believe these folks were 'innocents' in this whole episode, theres probably no point in continuing the discussion.I'm supporting 99% of what you've said...and even if they were 'thugs', I'm sincerely opposed to these kinds of tactics. What more do you want? I am saying it is ok to draw reasonable assumptions from the video. Why is it wrong for me to assume the motives of the "soldiers" but not the "thugs" given their actions? Now if you want me to take into account possible stress such as getting rocks and bricks thrown at you then perhaps you should also take into account of having your city occupied and your rights taken away by a foreign army. What about the next Iraqi protesters throwing rocks, they can say, hey you can't complain you guys are brutal and beat defenseless people, and you know what? I guarantee if a foreign army "liberated" your town, no matter the motive you would be throwing whatever you can at them. Would you be a thug? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I didn't see any IEDs or hear any gun shots That's right you didn't see it, because you aren't over there, working in a dangerous environment 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's easy for you or me to sit here and criticize these soldiers when we aren't living it every day. Do you think this was the first day on the job for these soldiers? I'm sure they have seen friends killed and maimed over there. I'm also certain that these "kids" weren't skipping their way to the local mosque either. Once agiain, not condoning the behavior, just understanding how it could get to that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I am saying it is ok to draw reasonable assumptions from the video. Why is it wrong for me to assume the motives of the "soldiers" but not the "thugs" given their actions? Now if you want me to take into account possible stress such as getting rocks and bricks thrown at you then perhaps you should also take into account of having your city occupied and your rights taken away by a foreign army. What about the next Iraqi protesters throwing rocks, they can say, hey you can't complain you guys are brutal and beat defenseless people. Honestly Liberty, I don't disagree with your primary point. Where did I say anything justifying the actions of the soldiers? I've said repeatedly they are wrong and that their actions aren't consistent with US and British military policy and law. I'm not sure what else there is to say? Unless you're suggesting this is standard operating procedure... When you're looking at a video clip, really all you have are assumptions to a certain degree. I guess my point ultimately is, if you're going to assume the worst about the transgressions of the soldiers (which is easy to do as they're clearly beating someone), you also might want to consider that the actions of the 'victims' contributed to the situation. I think you know what I mean. I have no problem condemning the actions. I just caution against drawing any far-reaching conclusions from a 30 second video clip. I've been in multiple military combat units and I've never observed anything approaching that kind of lack of discipline and brutality. And I also have no problem saying, yes, I am making an assumption when describing them as 'thugs'....an assumption that at least in theory might be incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Honestly Liberty, I don't disagree with your primary point. Where did I say anything justifying the actions of the soldiers? I've said repeatedly they are wrong and that their actions aren't consistent with US and British military policy and law. I'm not sure what else there is to say? Unless you're suggesting this is standard operating procedure... Why do you think I am trying to make an argument of it? I am just pointing out a possible inconsistency. I don't disagree with 99% of what you said. When you're looking at a video clip, really all you have are assumptions to a certain degree. I guess my point ultimately is, if you're going to assume the worst about the transgressions of the soldiers (which is easy to do as they're clearly beating someone), you also might want to consider that the actions of the 'victims' contributed to the situation. I think you know what I mean. I have no problem condemning the actions. I just caution against drawing any far-reaching conclusions from a 30 second video clip. I've been in multiple military combat units and I've never observed anything approaching that kind of lack of discipline and brutality. And I also have no problem saying, yes, I am making an assumption when describing them as 'thugs'....an assumption that at least in theory might be incorrect. All very true, I just got the impression that you included the possible reasons behind their actions, while not fully exploring the possibilties of the "victims' " motives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 First off, none of us were there. Its kind of hard to put ourselves in their shoes. But I do agree that an officer or NCO should have been around to keep them in check. You know, its interesting to watch Iraq evolve. Five years ago, those kids wouldn't have had the balls to do what they did if Sadaam's Republican Guard had been stomping down on them. Cus if they had, they woulda been beaten and tortured while their mothers and sisters were gangraped to death. Funny, I don't know if thats progress or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Why do you think I am trying to make an argument of it? I am just pointing out a possible inconsistency. I don't disagree with 99% of what you said.All very true, I just got the impression that you included the possible reasons behind their actions, while not fully exploring the possibilties of the "victims' " motives. Fair enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I dont know. Harrassing a bunch of armed soldiers, I feel pretty lucky to get away with just an ass beating. Idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouBrave86 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Wow that video is pretty messed up. The camera man is the one who should be getting the beat down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 They got the ass beating they deserved. Maybe next protest march they just stick to burning flags and such I think that's a really good standard to judge the actions of soldiers by--whether Sarge think their actions are justified or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 So to recap, here are the modern rules of combat: 1. Shooting, bombing, decapitating, or otherwise violently taking the life of your enemy = OK. 2. Beating up your enemy = Not OK. 3. Taking embarassing pictures of your enemy = Not OK. The above, of course, is somewhat in jest. However, as a former MP and former civilian police officer, I have to say that I am SURE we are not seeing the full story in one short clip. Let me give just one personal example. One afternoon, patrolling my sector, I got a call for a domestic situation. According to the complaint a girl in town had separated from her boyfriend and temporarily moved into a local hotel. The complaint we received was that the boyfriend had found out where she was staying, and was taking a shotgun to the hotel to kill her and their young child. We quickly ran NCIC, criminal history, and local wanteds for the boyfriend, and found that he had two priors for domestic battery. That added legitimacy to the complaint. I received a description of his car, with tag number, and proceeded to the area of the hotel. Sure enough, here he comes, headed for the hotel as expected. I pulled him over, and initiated a felony traffic stop (gun drawn, issuing commands over my vehicle's PA system). Now, this stop was made on a road directly between an Outback Steakhouse and an Applebee's at 5:00 in the afternoon. Needless to say, there were more than a few witnesses. Anyway, I talked the kid out of the car at gunpoint, and eventually got him handcuffed and secured in my car in order to investigate further. He was unarmed when he got out, and surely to the spectators, my actions looked like "overkill." (Gun pointed at an unarmed 19 year old kid, etc.) Their opinion was no doubt quite different when I retrieved a Remington 12-guage shotgun off of the backseat of his car. I'm not saying cops or soldiers are always right. I'm just saying perception is not always reality. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Sounds like the guy filming this was either masterbating or fisting his own arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I think that's a really good standard to judge the actions of soldiers by--whether Sarge think their actions are justified or not. I'm glad you agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 That's an ugly scene but ... I don't have a problem with it at all. Those guys will have some lumps, but they'll go home to their families tonight. Where's the outrage (from Muslims) about all their atocities? Bombings in Bali, England, Beslan Russia, the USA. Nothing. And a couple of fools get beat up for throwing bricks and rocks and we're supposed to be shocked and horrified? Don't think so. I've seen as bad by drunks outside of bars right here. I'm so sick of this double standard gargage. F'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I'll bet those kids won't crossing the Brits and throwing bricks at them anymore:laugh: I bet you're right. Some of them are now suicide bombers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 That's right you didn't see it, because you aren't over there, working in a dangerous environment 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's easy for you or me to sit here and criticize these soldiers when we aren't living it every day. Do you think this was the first day on the job for these soldiers? I'm sure they have seen friends killed and maimed over there. I'm also certain that these "kids" weren't skipping their way to the local mosque either. Once agiain, not condoning the behavior, just understanding how it could get to that point. And there you have demonstrated, the Selective Reality of the Right. Show videotaped footage of a deliberate beating of an unarmed juvinile prisoner, and The Right will conclude that obviously you must ignore the things on the video, and imagine things that might have happened elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleDanger Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I don't expect it to be typical, but I also expect it to be much more rampant than some may feel. I doubt 1/1000 of incidents are taped and documented so well. That is pure speculation. There is a lot of pressure on our guys not to do things like this. I also saw a video where an American soldier was shot in the chest by an enemy sniper. The soldier was not too badly injured because he was wearing body armor. He got up and took cover. The sniper was surrounded and non-fatally shot while trying to flea. The sniper was later treated for his wounds by the same American soldier the sniper had tried to kill. How often does this happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateCitySkin Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Nope. Some of them are now suicide bombers. Thank Allah for Western double standards! Thank Allah for guilt and sympathy for the enemy! Freedom of speech is only applicable when it doesn't offend people that go nuts and start killing and bombing things! Bah, they're a bunch of primative savages. You know they probably deserved worse than what they received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Thank Allah for Western double standards! Thank Allah for guilt and sympathy for the enemy! Freedom of speech is only applicable when it doesn't offend people that go nuts and start killing and bombing things!Bah, they're a bunch of primative savages. You know they probably deserved worse than what they received. Kill 'em all. Nuke the whole country. It's not like they're people, "they're a bunch of primative savages" who don't have our high moral standards. Who needs a reason? They're "them". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Kill 'em all. Nuke the whole country. It's not like they're people, "they're a bunch of primative savages" who don't have our high moral standards. Who needs a reason? They're "them". Don't forget, Larry ... to them, we're them, too. They don't show a lot of humanity towards us. But, that tends to get forgotten most of the time. At least as far as I can see. They can do WHATEVER and they're freedom fighters, or oppressed masses, or occupied patriots ... whatever. Anything done to them (usually in RESPONSE) is an atrocity. BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 At least as far as I can see. They can do WHATEVER and they're freedom fighters, or oppressed masses, or occupied patriots ... whatever. Posts like this utterly confuse me. Whose opinion are you representing here? Who is saying this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleDanger Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 If the media coverage and politicians had shown this kind of outrage during WW2, we'd have lost the war. How this country hasn't gone under is beyond me........ I heard from someone who used to work for National Defense that some of our journalists attended "propaganda school" in the former USSR. I think years of propagating by our leftist media has gained ground. We are rotting from the inside out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgun88 Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/British_Soldiers_Beating_Iraqi_Kids_Basra_65117.htmlthe title says it all, they take them behind a wall after they were subdued and beat them up. Inexcusable and barbaric :mad: :doh: You have no idea what the situation was and you have no idea what the motive was. So how can you make a judgment based on what you don't know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgun88 Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 plus i heard this is a video from 2 years ago anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleDanger Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I bet they will feel liberated and free afterwords and worship at the alter of Western ideals. Iraqi soldiers under Saddam Hussein's regime likely would have done far worse things to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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