Prosperity Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/British_Soldiers_Beating_Iraqi_Kids_Basra_65117.html the title says it all, they take them behind a wall after they were subdued and beat them up. Inexcusable and barbaric :mad: :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Wah wah wah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/British_Soldiers_Beating_Iraqi_Kids_Basra_65117.htmlthe title says it all, they take them behind a wall after they were subdued and beat them up. Inexcusable and barbaric :mad: :doh: You obviously can't defend any brutality by military forces. There are always rules of engagement, and the justification for the use of force is very clearly defined and limited. I'm more inclined to forgive excessive force in lethal combat when it can be difficult to tell 'who' the enemy is, and your #1 priority is the safety of your own unit. In this case, it clearly goes beyond subduing and securing some civilians. They're beating on them and theres no excuse for it. I would point out that they don't appear to be 'kids' to me. They appear to be young men, who likely were among those chucking bricks and stones at these guys in the earlier footage. They may have injured some of these soldiers, we just don't know. I'd just give that as context in understanding the frustration level some of these troops might feel, not as an excuse - as you clearly said, there is none. I'd also caution against the assumption that this is 'typical' behavior. It may or may not be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 This has been on the news for the past week or so. Anyhoo, here are 2 observations: 1. These things happen in the heat of battle. I'm not excusing the behavior, but I do understand where it comes from. At least they weren't sawing their heads off. Its look like an old fashioned spanking was being delivered. 2. The British guy's commentary was a bit disturbing. It sounded like the dude was watching a porn flick or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 A would point out that they don't appear to be 'kids' to me. They appear to be young men, who likely were among those chucking bricks and stones at these guys in the earlier footage. They may have injured some of these soldiers, we just don't know. I'd just give that as context in understanding the frustration level some of these troops might feel, not as an excuse - as you clearly said, there is none. I'd also caution against the assumption that this is 'typical' behavior. It may or may not be. Oh I understand they can feel frustrated, but if there is any justice these *******s will get tossed into prison. BTW, the people getting beat up are atleast a head's length shorter than the soldiers. I expect soldiers to be around 18-22 so I would expect the people getting beaten up to be around 14-17. I don't expect it to be typical, but I also expect it to be much more rampant than some may feel. I doubt 1/1000 of incidents are taped and documented so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Oh I understand they can feel frustrated, but if there is any justice these *******s will get tossed into prison.BTW, the people getting beat up are atleast a head's length shorter than the soldiers. I expect soldiers to be around 18-22 so I would expect the people getting beaten up to be around 14-17. As I said, theres no excuse for going over that particular line. Whats not addressed here is that the troops are largely prohibited from responding to crowds of hostile people launching projectiles at them, putting their safety at risk. Again, thats not an excuse for brutality, but its unlikely these are total 'innocents' and that they themselves were doing nothing to attempt to harm these troops. And I think making a lot of 'assumptions' based on a single video clip is dangerous. On your primary point, that this is disgusting behavior, I agree. I don't think you can condemn it though without also condemning those that throw stones and bricks at troops who aren't actively threatening them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
england Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 why has this suddenly come to light over 2 years later and has it been authenticated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I'll bet those kids won't crossing the Brits and throwing bricks at them anymore:laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 If the media coverage and politicians had shown this kind of outrage during WW2, we'd have lost the war. How this country hasn't gone under is beyond me........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
england Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I'll bet those kids won't crossing the Brits and throwing bricks at them anymore:laugh:spot on :applause: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I'll bet those kids won't crossing the Brits and throwing bricks at them anymore:laugh: Yep, it's amazing what a good, ol' fashioned beat down will do to change someone's behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 1. These things happen in the heat of battle. I'm not excusing the behavior, but I do understand where it comes from. At least they weren't sawing their heads off. Its look like an old fashioned spanking was being delivered. The heat of battle? The kids (sorry TH, they sounded like kids to me) were unarmed and subdued, then they took the time to bring them around this wall and then kick the crap out of them. That was about as close to the heat of battle as the Abu-Gharib torture was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 I'll bet those kids won't crossing the Brits and throwing bricks at them anymore:laugh: I bet they will feel liberated and free afterwords and worship at the alter of Western ideals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 spot on :applause: Looks like we found the videographer... How anyone can watch that and not be deeply disturbed is beyond me. That was abuse of power at its worst; those soldiers should be prosecuted for excessive use of force. Inexcusable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 As I said, theres no excuse for going over that particular line. Whats not addressed here is that the troops are largely prohibited from responding to crowds of hostile people launching projectiles at them, putting their safety at risk. Again, thats not an excuse for brutality, but its unlikely these are total 'innocents' and that they themselves were doing nothing to attempt to harm these troops. And I think making a lot of 'assumptions' based on a single video clip is dangerous.On your primary point, that this is disgusting behavior, I agree. I don't think you can condemn it though without also condemning those that throw stones and bricks at troops who aren't actively threatening them. That is a fair assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 spot on :applause: yeah I bet you were jacking off when you watched it huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 They got the ass beating they deserved. Maybe next protest march they just stick to burning flags and such Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 The heat of battle? The kids (sorry TH, they sounded like kids to me) were unarmed and subdued, then they took the time to bring them around this wall and then kick the crap out of them. That was about as close to the heat of battle as the Abu-Gharib torture was... I agree with you and Liberty here. The thing is, theres no indication to me from watching it whether they were kids or not - they may have been - my only point there is that you lose the power of what you're saying (that this is wrong and likely criminal behavior) when you jump to conclusions. Whats really telling in most of these situations is the lack of leadership. Where are the NCO's, the Staff NCO's, the officers in these situations? I think we can all understand the urge, in a hostile environment, feeling under attack, etc...but unit leaders are there not just to lead in combat but to ensure their troops don't forget who they are, what they are supposed to represent, and not give way to their less honorable instincts. I think these kinds of episodes truly hurt the efforts there. Its assumed by many that this IS typical. I helped corral and secure over 3,000 Iraqi's in the first Gulf War, and held them for 3 days. They were treated with absolute respect. I don't think this is 'typical', but it'll be treated as such by 99% of the media, and those that pass it on over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I agree with you and Liberty here. The thing is, theres no indication to me from watching it whether they were kids or not - they may have been - my only point there is that you lose the power of what you're saying (that this is wrong and likely criminal behavior) when you jump to conclusions. Well, to me they sounded like young teenagers when they were pleading for the soldiers to stop beating them. However you are absolutely correct; you really can't tell. I think these kinds of episodes truly hurt the efforts there. Its assumed by many that this IS typical. I helped corral and secure over 3,000 Iraqi's in the first Gulf War, and held them for 3 days. They were treated with absolute respect. I don't think this is 'typical', but it'll be treated as such by 99% of the media, and those that pass it on over and over. I know who will take them as typical activities; the terrorists. Its things like this that will make the "war on terror" a miserable failure. How can we expect to win these people over when this type of vulgar display is shown, typical or not? The main problem is the soldiers who do things the right way don't make the news... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 They got the ass beating they deserved. Maybe next protest march they just stick to burning flags and such Whether they deserved it or not isn't relevant. There are rules of engagement and they don't allow troops to subdue protestors and engage in beatdowns. I know thats not what you're asserting? You may personally not have a problem with this, but thats not US or British Military policy. And the danger isn't in this particular 'beatdown' - its in accepting it as 'okay'. As soon as you do, the escalation to, say, burning down households, shooting unarmed harassers, etc...is just a hop, skip, and a jump away. You lose respect for the rules of engagement, and start to blur the lines of what is and is acceptable, you risk becoming what you are purportedly fighting. I'm not saying I don't understand the urge, as I said, and I'm not arguing the little thugs didn't have it coming. But it shows an utter lack of discipline - that unit has problems or a total lack of leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Whether they deserved it or not isn't relevant. There are rules of engagement and they don't allow troops to subdue protestors and engage in beatdowns. I know thats not what you're asserting? You may personally not have a problem with this, but thats not US or British Military policy. And the danger isn't in this particular 'beatdown' - its in accepting it as 'okay'. As soon as you do, the escalation to, say, burning down households, shooting unarmed harassers, etc...is just a hop, skip, and a jump away. You lose respect for the rules of engagement, and start to blur the lines of what is and is acceptable, you risk becoming what you are purportedly fighting.I'm not saying I don't understand the urge, as I said, and I'm not arguing the little thugs didn't have it coming. But it shows an utter lack of discipline - that unit has problems or a total lack of leadership. So it is ok to make assumptions about the "thugs" but not the soldiers? Where is the consistency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanCollins Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Looks like they asked for it. one things for sure, you're never two young or too old to get you @$$ beat. Reminds me of the Hank Williams Jr. song "attitude ajustment" "some sticks to the head, kicks to the shins, and sereval bites by rin tin tin" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 The heat of battle? The kids (sorry TH, they sounded like kids to me) were unarmed and subdued, then they took the time to bring them around this wall and then kick the crap out of them. That was about as close to the heat of battle as the Abu-Gharib torture was... Have you ever been in a foreign country, in a hostile environment, where there are snipers shooting at you and IED's blowing up around you? As I said earlier, I'm not excusing the behavior, I'm just saying I understand how it could have escalated to this. While those "kids" may have been throwing rocks and bricks at the soldiers, they could have easily been throwing grenades at them. As a soldier over there, you really have to be prepared for the worst. They're in an extremely stressful situation 24x7. The simple way for those "kids" to have avoided the situation was to not throw rocks at the soldiers. They were real brave doing it 100 yards away, but were squealing like little ****es when the soldiers dished out an ol' fashioned spanking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 So it is ok to make assumptions about the "thugs" but not the soldiers? Where is the consistency? Do you honestly believe these individuals (whether kids or not) were just on the way to the public library and dragged away for a beating? Sorry, but I have to believe they were harassing these troops. And if you do believe these folks were 'innocents' in this whole episode, theres probably no point in continuing the discussion. Having been in these soldier's situation, its not surprising I have some empathy for their dilemma. You obviously haven't experienced that kind of situation. I'm supporting 99% of what you've said...and even if they were 'thugs', I'm sincerely opposed to these kinds of tactics. What more do you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Have you ever been in a foreign country, in a hostile environment, where there are snipers shooting at you and IED's blowing up around you? As I said earlier, I'm not excusing the behavior, I'm just saying I understand how it could have escalated to this. I didn't see any IEDs or hear any gun shots. While those "kids" may have been throwing rocks and bricks at the soldiers, they could have easily been throwing grenades at them. As a soldier over there, you really have to be prepared for the worst. They're in an extremely stressful situation 24x7. The simple way for those "kids" to have avoided the situation was to not throw rocks at the soldiers. They were real brave doing it 100 yards away, but were squealing like little ****es when the soldiers dished out an ol' fashioned spanking. We didn't even see them throwing bricks or rocks...and that's besides the point. Grenades or bricks, they were subdued and under arrest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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