British soldiers beat up kids while camera man cheers on

[Brave]

Posts like this utterly confuse me. Whose opinion are you representing here? Who is saying this?

My own opinion. What's confusing you?

[Tarhog]

Posts like this utterly confuse me. Whose opinion are you representing here? Who is saying this?

Thats a fair question. I'll pose a similar question to Larry who apparently thinks he can speak for 'the right' and doesn't hesitate to lump them all into the same mindless category.

And there you have demonstrated, the Selective Reality of the Right.

Show videotaped footage of a deliberate beating of an unarmed juvinile prisoner, and The Right will conclude that obviously you must ignore the things on the video, and imagine things that might have happened elsewhere.

Kill 'em all. Nuke the whole country. It's not like they're people, "they're a bunch of primative savages" who don't have our high moral standards.

Who needs a reason? They're "them".

People really need to speak for themselves and address those they disagree with directly and avoid the grand generalizations and stereotypes. Doing otherwise just affords one with the ability to blast without being accountable to anyone in particular.

[PleaseBlitz]

You have no idea what the situation was and you have no idea what the motive was. So how can you make a judgment based on what you don't know?

18 year old college students are afforded that luxury. In this country, at least.

[Larry]

I heard from someone who used to work for National Defense that some of our journalists attended "propaganda school" in the former USSR. I think years of propagating by our leftist media has gained ground. We are rotting from the inside out.

Y'know how every time the cops shoot somebody, they say they found PCP in the dead guy? I think the cops are dipping their bullets in PCP. How about that?

:insane:

[AbleDanger]

Y'know how every time the cops shoot somebody, they say they found PCP in the dead guy? I think the cops are dipping their bullets in PCP. How about that?

:insane:

I personally would have no way of verifying if it is true, but it's not implausible that Russia would support or plant individuals here that would encourage a socialist agenda. Afterall, propaganda was one of Russia's most useful tools in managing the populace of the Soviet Union. However, regardless of whether or not it is, there is no doubt in my mind that our media is trying to drift American society in a direction that I believe is not good for the country. They have also undermined a President during a time of war.

[Ancalagon the Black]

My own opinion. What's confusing you?

Tarhog understood my meaning. You said, "They can do whatever they like..." but you obviously don't believe that. My point is that I don't know a single person who thinks they can do whatever they like, and I'm pretty sure you don't either. Just like I have never met anyone who believes we should "nuke them all" (although some posters on this board have expressed similar opinions).

[Om]

Damn, Larry ... can I offer you a couple more random targets, or you got it covered?

[chomerics]

I'll bet those kids won't crossing the Brits and throwing bricks at them anymore:laugh:

No Sarge, They'll be strapping bombs to their bodies and blowing themselves up to take out MANY soldiers now :doh: This is part of the reason for all of the hatred towards the soldiers, and why so many think it is justified to attack them.

Man, when will you people learn crap like this IS the problem with Iraq? I mentioned this in the other thread on this incident, I think this is atrocious behavior, and it can not be condoned. The reason it needs to be punished severely and quickly is because it gives the other 99% of our soldiers doing yomans work a BAD NAME. . . and to have another soldier actually make fun of the situation is pretty bad Sarge. You of all people should know what behavior like this leads to.

[PleaseBlitz]

No Sarge, They'll be strapping bombs to their bodies and blowing themselves up to take out MANY soldiers now :doh: This is part of the reason for all of the hatred towards the soldiers, and why so many think it is justified to attack them.

Yeah, cause thats the next logical step. Brick throwing to killing yourself. Real easy to make that transition. :doh:

[Larry]

Thats a fair question. I'll pose a similar question to Larry who apparently thinks he can speak for 'the right' and doesn't hesitate to lump them all into the same mindless category.

People really need to speak for themselves and address those they degree with directly and avoid the grand generalizations and stereotypes. Doing otherwise just affords one with the ability to blast without being accountable to anyone in particular.

Presented here, we have video footage of the beating of unarmed prisoners and a cheering section.

And two different people are claiming the actions are justified because, in one case, they must have done something, somewhere, and in the other case because "they're a bunch of primative savages".

And I'm the one who you've decided needs to "avoid the grand generalizations and stereotypes"?

I'll agree. I went too far in nelm's case, by labeling him as typical of "the Right". I assert that he is. (Typical). But I'll certainly agree that "typical" does not mean "speaks for every single one". (In fact, I'd say that your position (which I agree with: It certainly appears they were wrong. There may have been mitigating circumstances that don't make it right, but might make it understandable.) is proof that nelms doesn "speak for every single one".)

(I'll also point out. even I didn't try to claim CCSs response was typical.)

[chomerics]

Yeah, cause thats the next logical step. Brick throwing to killing yourself. Real easy to make that transition. :doh:

What would you do? You've been severely beaten by an occupying force while unarmed. You have also watched many of your relatives get captured, taken hostage or killed by the same people. Would you want to get back at them? I know I sure would.

How can you not see the correlation? Are you telling me that you would just turn the other cheek in this instance? Hell, I'm more of a pacifist then most on this board, and I would attack the troops the next chance I got if I was one of these kids. It is human nature to rise up against people you feel are supressing you. Being on the same side of the fence ideologically as these guys, you of all people should know this. That is unless you are being completely dishonest with yourself, and you won't admit the obvious. or are not one to stick up for yourself. There are people like that, but few and far between, and I don't think you are one of them, but someone who would stand up for yourself. If that is the case, and you indeed would stand up for yourself, then you OBVIOUSLY have to see the correlation and what I am talking about.

[Larry]

Damn, Larry ... can I offer you a couple more random targets, or you got it covered?

Just call me Deadeye Dick.

(Yes, I feel much better now. Apologies all around.)

[AbleDanger]

No Sarge, They'll be strapping bombs to their bodies and blowing themselves up to take out MANY soldiers now :doh: This is part of the reason for all of the hatred towards the soldiers, and why so many think it is justified to attack them.

Man, when will you people learn crap like this IS the problem with Iraq? I mentioned this in the other thread on this incident, I think this is atrocious behavior, and it can not be condoned. The reason it needs to be punished severely and quickly is because it gives the other 99% of our soldiers doing yomans work a BAD NAME. . . and to have another soldier actually make fun of the situation is pretty bad Sarge. You of all people should know what behavior like this leads to.

I agree that these soldiers made a bad decision in the heat of a moment when they were having things thrown at them, but I do not feel it is as damaging as you might think. We have established ourselves as the authority in a region of the world that stresses rule of law and is accustomed to penalties far harsher than a spanking.

One thing the media does not show us that occurs often in Iraq is Iraqi civilians rushing to the aid of fallen American soldiers after a bomb blast or another unfortunate circumstance. I'm told by those who have served there that it happens quite often and we never see it in the media.

[PleaseBlitz]

What would you do? You've been severely beaten by an occupying force while unarmed. You have also watched many of your relatives get captured, taken hostage or killed by the same people. Would you want to get back at them? I know I sure would.

How can you not see the correlation? Are you telling me that you would just turn the other cheek in this instance? Hell, I'm more of a pacifist then most on this board, and I would attack the troops the next chance I got if I was one of these kids. It is human nature to rise up against people you feel are supressing you. Being on the same side of the fence ideologically as these guys, you of all people should know this. That is unless you are being completely dishonest with yourself, and you won't admit the obvious. or are not one to stick up for yourself. There are people like that, but few and far between, and I don't think you are one of them, but someone who would stand up for yourself. If that is the case, and you indeed would stand up for yourself, then you OBVIOUSLY have to see the correlation and what I am talking about.

So, speaking for yourself, you take 1 beating from a soldier, and now you are ready to declare your life forfeit and become a suicide bomber? Thats your assertation?

I think its pretty arrogant that you think you can presume to tell everyone what is going throught any of these peoples minds, cause you have no idea. You've never been in a situation like that.

[Ignatius J.]

Thats a fair question. I'll pose a similar question to Larry who apparently thinks he can speak for 'the right' and doesn't hesitate to lump them all into the same mindless category.

People really need to speak for themselves and address those they disagree with directly and avoid the grand generalizations and stereotypes. Doing otherwise just affords one with the ability to blast without being accountable to anyone in particular.

While I love the sentiment posed in the second paragraph, I think Larry deserves a bit more credit since he was in fact addressing a specific post and making a comment about the thoughts posed therein. There was at least a specific example for his stereotype instead of just some boogeyman straw man.

[Teller]

What would you do? You've been severely beaten by an occupying force while unarmed. You have also watched many of your relatives get captured, taken hostage or killed by the same people. Would you want to get back at them? I know I sure would.

Exactly how I feel when I see American civilian contractors and reporters decapitated or hung from bridges. In a realistic perspective, being smacked around or having embarassing pictures taken of you seems like the better form of treatment. That doesn't make it right, mind you, but it's not the pure evil that we have to face.

[AbleDanger]

Exactly how I feel when I see American civilian contractors and reporters decapitated or hung from bridges. In a realistic perspective, being smacked around or having embarassing pictures taken of you seems like the better form of treatment. That doesn't make it right, mind you, but it's not the pure evil that we have to face.

You need only have common sense to form an opinion like that, but how much outrage do we see by many on the left directed towards the terrorists? Their rage is often (if not always) directed towards America. When terrorists decapitate an innocent, that is also America's fault.

[Larry]

I think its pretty arrogant that you think you can presume to tell everyone what is going throught any of these peoples minds, cause you have no idea. You've never been in a situation like that.

I think every single person on this board has been in "a situation like that". How many people here haven't gotten beat up once?

And when those people got beat up, how many of them didn't at least wish they had a gun and could kill the guy who beat them up?

Even the ones who were honest enough to admit that they'd started the fight they'd lost.

In short, based on personal experience, I think it's a safe bet that more of those people were planning to get even (at least, the next day. Some of them may calm down later), than there were thinking "Wow, this beating is a lot more humane than Saddam's boys used to do. I feel gratefull."

I think it's a pretty safe bet that people become suicide bombers because they hate, and they feel powerless. And I think it's a pretty safe bet that those people are feeling plenty of both.

[Teller]

You need only have common sense to form an opinion like that, but how much outrage do we see by many on the left directed towards the terrorists? Their rage is often (if not always) directed towards America. When terrorists decapitate an innocent, that is also America's fault.

How long was Abu Ghraib a story? They were pictures of people in embarassing poses. Pictures! It was wrong, granted. But it was a story for months.

Yet there seems to be virtually no outrage about the treatment of American hostages. I'm not talking about POWs, mind you but about civilian hostages. They get butchered like hogs and are lucky to get a mention before a commerical break on the evening news.

I love my country. I'm proud to be an American. But the rationale I described above sickens and embarasses me.

[chomerics]

So, speaking for yourself, you take 1 beating from a soldier, and now you are ready to declare your life forfeit and become a suicide bomber? Thats your assertation?

It is not just the beating mind you, it is all the stories they've heard from relatives. It is every picture they've seen of Iraqi's being tortured and mocked at Abu Ghriab, it is every story they have read about the desecration of the Koran, it is everything they've seen and heard about the Americans and the British since they have occupied Iraq.

A few months ago, there was a poll done by the British military where 45% of Iraqi's said the attacks on our soldiers were justified. In some areas, the number was upwards of 65%. This is not if they like Americans or not, but if they thought that killing our soldiers was OK, and almost a MAJORITY said YES, it was!!!! Those are completely damning statistics to talk away, and it strikes to the core of my argument. Do you think these kids will now be. .

a. More willing to attack occupying soldier or

b. Less willing to attack occupying soldiers?

What would you feel? Would you be more or less willing to attack soldiers?

You have already lost the argument, just as we have already lost the hearts and minds of the Iraqis. It is because of crap like this, Abu Ghriab and people making light of the situation that it happened. We are not a country that condones stuff like this (I know they are British soldiers BTW) so we should not condone this type of behavior ANY time. We also should not make light of the situation, because one incident like this does more to erode away the trust and hope all the electricity and water could ever bring.

I think its pretty arrogant that you think you can presume to tell everyone what is going throught any of these peoples minds, cause you have no idea. You've never been in a situation like that.

How do you know I have never been in a situation like that? How do you know I don't understand what these kids are thinking? Do you think if I had the crap beat out of me by a cop I would have similar feelings? Do you see the similarities?

Instead of calling me arrogant, try to answer some of the hard questions I posed to you earlier. Try to justify how you would feel in that situation, and what your reaction would be. So here, answer me this question.

You are an American citizen, and we have been invaded and overthrown by China. The Chineese have been found to torture our fellow citizens, and they have killed many people that you know. You are then beat to a pulp by them, do you think you would attack them when you had the chance, or would you turn the other cheek?

Do you see the flaw in you locig? You are saying they should be turning the other cheek, yet you would never do such a thing. You should ALWAYS put yourself in someone elses' shoes before you act, try to understand their POV, because a lot of times, you will find there are more similarities then you know.

[Larry]

When terrorists decapitate an innocent, that is also America's fault.

Show me one post in which one person claims it's America's fault.

[AbleDanger]

Show me one post in which one person claims it's America's fault.

I wasn't referring to anyone posting here. I was referring primarily to liberal politicians and others in the media.

[chomerics]

I agree that these soldiers made a bad decision in the heat of a moment when they were having things thrown at them, but I do not feel it is as damaging as you might think. We have established ourselves as the authority in a region of the world that stresses rule of law and is accustomed to penalties far harsher than a spanking.

One thing the media does not show us that occurs often in Iraq is Iraqi civilians rushing to the aid of fallen American soldiers after a bomb blast or another unfortunate circumstance. I'm told by those who have served there that it happens quite often and we never see it in the media.

Fair enough, but you also have to understand that we are not Saddam, and we are not Iraqi. They would be far far less apt to attack if we were Iraqi, or one of Saddam's people. There was a reason why he was a brutal leader, as well as a reason why he ruled for over 20+ years in a country where everyone hates each other. We can not act like him though, as we are a civilized nation, and our laws will never permit us to act as barbaric as he did.

This is why freedom needs to be earned, and not given. They have a freedom which was not earned, it was just given to them, and they do not know what to do with it. I always though freedom is something that should be fought for and earned on its own merit, not something given away by the slash of a sword, or the drop of a bomb. For when it is just given away, people do not know what to do with it, and we are watching first had the problems with it.

[PleaseBlitz]

It is not just the beating mind you, it is all the stories they've heard from relatives. It is every picture they've seen of Iraqi's being tortured and mocked at Abu Ghriab, it is every story they have read about the desecration of the Koran, it is everything they've seen and heard about the Americans and the British since they have occupied Iraq.

You have no idea WHAT they see on a day to day basis. Again, arrogance. Just because you are anti-war, you think everything every Iraqi sees over there is Americans doing evil.

What would you feel? Would you be more or less willing to attack soldiers?

You have already lost the argument, just as we have already lost the hearts and minds of the Iraqis. It is because of crap like this, Abu Ghriab and people making light of the situation that it happened. We are not a country that condones stuff like this (I know they are British soldiers BTW) so we should not condone this type of behavior ANY time. We also should not make light of the situation, because one incident like this does more to erode away the trust and hope all the electricity and water could ever bring.

Dont even start your "you have lost the argument" bull. You said that the next logical step for Iraqis is to become suicide bombers. Dont you think that is kind of a big step? But hey! It sounds good from your POV. All Iraqis just want to be suicide bombers. :doh:

How do you know I have never been in a situation like that? How do you know I don't understand what these kids are thinking? Do you think if I had the crap beat out of me by a cop I would have similar feelings? Do you see the similarities?

I said that in response to this post:

What would you do? You've been severely beaten by an occupying force while unarmed. You have also watched many of your relatives get captured, taken hostage or killed by the same people. Would you want to get back at them? I know I sure would.

Im pretty sure you werent in Boston the last time it was occupied.

Im not saying i would turn the other cheek. I wouldnt. Maybe you shouldnt assume that events like these automatically turn people into suicide bombers.

[chomerics]

You need only have common sense to form an opinion like that, but how much outrage do we see by many on the left directed towards the terrorists? Their rage is often (if not always) directed towards America. When terrorists decapitate an innocent, that is also America's fault.

Where has a single person on this board said that one of the beheadings was "our" fault? Did you read what Tarhog posted a few posts ago? Where d o you get off saying something as completely ludicrous, and blatently false as this?

I have just as much outrage when I see their deplorable actions, but you know what, they are not Americans. I expect them to act that way, because they are savages, we are NOT!!! Once we ignore our rules of law to fight the enemy, we have already lost. It is because doing this does FAR FAR more dammage to our country then 9-11 did.

We are a country who has ALWAYS held itself to a higher standard, and now, more then ever this should be the way we conduct ourselves. ESPECIALLY after the entire Abu Ghriab fiasco, as well as the Gitmo crap that has been going on. We are a CIVILIZED nation, who has a basis in LAW and ORDER. We are NOT savages like the people we are fighting, and we can not stoop too their level. For the second we do, we have already lost!!!