KC's Offensive Production in DC?-Not So Fast

[>>Spearhead>>]

I think bringing in Saunders was an excellent move, too. It shows that Gibbs is willing to do any and everything to improve this team-but we already knew that, didn't we? Its good to see that he has silenced those who called him 'too stubborn to change on offense' in a single move, although a lot of us thought bringing in Bill Musgrave last year should of already done that...

I can understand why there is post after post comparing and predicting how this move gets us in the top 5 in offense year after year ala KC. That very well may happen, but lets be realistic.

1-This is the NFC East, not the AFC West-look at the defenses KC has gone up against over the last several seasons compared to Philly, Dallas, and- to a lesser degree -even NY. We won't be rolling mad rushing stats on the Raiders and Chargers twice a year. Until this season Denver and SD had real problems defensively also, and the Raiders defense has been a black hole for a long time.

2- We have no Will Shields or Willie Roaf to grate the road for Clinton the way they do for Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson. If you need further evidence of the significance of this, please see the Seattle Seahawks' O line and their MVP running back in the Super Bowl in a few weeks-thats how they got there.(Intersting that they also played weaker divisional defenses this year) I like Samuels and Jansen more than a lot of people on this board, but still, our line is nowhere near as good as theirs, which is arguably the best in the league.

3- Saunders has no FB here, he does have the best H Back in the league, however. Cooley will be used to catch balls and stretch defenses-not run block. I think this will be one of the most exciting prospects on how he utilizes such a big weapon. Point is- a blocking FB did big things for their rushing production and that just won't be present here.

4- There is only 1 Tony Gonzalez and trying to fit either Cooley or Robert Royal into his shoes is a set up for a let down. That production will have to come from somewhere else, or a combination of places and is a huge factor especially in the redzone, where the 'New Gibbs' has struggled. IMO, Saunders has been brought in for this sole purpose-Help inside the 20.

5-Santana Moss is a far better receiver than Eddie Kennison is, and the second most exciting part of big Al coming to town will be how Saunders gets him open. Kennison gets his 1000 yards, though- largely because there are other receiver threats the defense has to deal with, but mostly because those defenses must respect the run blocking that KC's line is capable of putting on any DLine in the NFL.

Things are looking up and this is a big move, but its a long offseason and more personell moves will have to be made on offense before we can be as potent as we need to be in our Division with our current lineup.

I broke up your paragraphs for you. Easier on the eyes. I hope you don't mind. -- Henry

[Jumbo]

Paragraph, mi amigo, paragraph...learn it...know it...embrace it

[MustangSteve]

What about Mike Sellers for a lead fullback? 280lbs and can move pretty good, and after Ray Browns retirement, hopefully we bring in some extra linemen to blow some holes open for Portis.

I think Al will have a lot to do with the draft and free agents, I agree with ya about not having all we need yet, but were close enough to fill the rest of the gaps this year.

[Bonef1de]

What about Mike Sellers for a lead fullback? 280lbs and can move pretty good

Yeah, I remember Portis riding his shirt-tail for a TD against Arizona. Mike can perform as blocking FB and is a decent receiver too.

[jrockster21]

4- There is only 1 Tony Gonzalez and trying to fit either Cooley or Robert Royal into his shoes is a set up for a let down. That production will have to come from somewhere else, or a combination of places and is a huge factor especially in the redzone, where the 'New Gibbs' has struggled. IMO, Saunders has been brought in for this sole purpose-Help inside the 20.

You're a year late, bud. The Skins were in the top ten (possibly top 3-5) in redzone scoring this year. Gonzo is used a lot like an H-Back, minus lining up in the backfield. He is sent in motion a lot, sent to the slot, split wide, and of course next to the OT. It is one of the things Saunders is most known for...shifting Gonzo around to exploit favorable matchups. :doh:

Sound anything like the way Cooley is used??

And by the way, Cooley outperformed Gonzo this year. Thanks for playing though.

[Major Harris]

You're a year late, bud. The Skins were in the top ten (possibly top 3-5) in redzone scoring this year. Gonzo is used a lot like an H-Back, minus lining up in the backfield. He is sent in motion a lot, sent to the slot, split wide, and of course next to the OT. It is one of the things Saunders is most known for...shifting Gonzo around to exploit favorable matchups. :doh:

Sound anything like the way Cooley is used??

And by the way, Cooley outperformed Gonzo this year. Thanks for playing though.

jrock, you plucked that post right out of my brain. :paranoid:

we were definitely top 5 in the red zone.

[TheLongshot]

This is the NFC East, not the AFC West

Yeah, and look at our record against both last year. The NFC East is SO much tougher. :doh:

Cooley will be used to catch balls and stretch defenses-not run block.

What do you think Cooley does on running plays?

You are also forgetting about Manuel White, who can possibly be adapted to that position as well.

IMO, Saunders has been brought in for this sole purpose-Help inside the 20.

Actually, we've been pretty decent in the Red Zone. The problem is getting started. I think we've had a lot of three and outs.

Jason

[Drex]

What about Mike Sellers for a lead fullback? 280lbs and can move pretty good, and after Ray Browns retirement, hopefully we bring in some extra linemen to blow some holes open for Portis.

I think Al will have a lot to do with the draft and free agents, I agree with ya about not having all we need yet, but were close enough to fill the rest of the gaps this year.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the skins make a run at FB Tony Richardson, the FB in Kansas City the last few seasons. He is a free agent and a good character guy that would fit in well with the lockerroom in Washington.

[The Full Monty]

We don't need another fullback. That's a load of crap. Mike Sellers is a great fullback and it was his original position with us the first time he was with the Skins, lead-blocking for Stephen Davis.

[bnacpa]

Yeah, and look at our record against both last year. The NFC East is SO much tougher. :doh:

What do you think Cooley does on running plays?

You are also forgetting about Manuel White, who can possibly be adapted to that position as well.

Actually, we've been pretty decent in the Red Zone. The problem is getting started. I think we've had a lot of three and outs.

Jason

You make good points except for Manuel White ... who was going to get cut until he miraculously got injured and ended up on I/R. It will be interesting to see if he survives training camp.

[jrfriedm]

I think that we will see Cooley perform up to and even above Tony Gonzales.

I actually think that our Offenive line, when healthy can be and will be one of the best in the league (Dockery is really the only question mark in my mind).

I don't know how we will work with or with out the full back, but I'm sure that people much smarter than me and most of you, in the world of football are hard at work figuring that out.

[Art]

The talent is different than in KC, but favorably comparable, depending on which Mark Brunell is back there . If it's the Brunell from early in the year, we'll be a Top 5 offense. If it's the Brunell from later, we'll be in the 20s. If it's some combination we'll be about what we were this year, at No. 11.

If we play a second-year guy like Campbell, I'd expect a great deal of struggle, though, Campbell does allow you to consistently attack on timing routes some outside, deep routes, which, alone, could spread defenses. With Brunell obviously wearing down a little our offense lost the intermediate passing attack as a dimension that made it so effective early in the year. Everything was 10-yards and under or 40-yards and over. Defenses could shrink up to stop the run while leaving a safety back to protect deep and cover everything because we had no intermediate passing game from 10-30 yards to exploit the gap and spread the defense.

That is an area Campbell and a fresh Brunell can force defenses to account for.

[PlayAction]

Yes, Sellers can be a great fullback. But the Skins haven't played him in that position because: 1) he is a full time very valuable special teams player, and 2) when he has played offense he's been the TD catching TE/HB monster. Sellers can only play fullback if you scale back his other duties.

A good TE could replace Sellers in the redzone TD department. But, Skins didn't want to tire Sellers out on offense too much because then he couldn't go full speed on special teams.

[G-Prime]

I understand the concerns of the OP but the facts you bring to the argument kind of invalidate your statements. Read people's replies about for examples.

[cuchip703]

I think bringing in Saunders was an excellent move, too. It shows that Gibbs is willing to do any and everything to improve this team-but we already knew that, didn't we? Its good to see that he has silenced those who called him 'too stubborn to change on offense' in a single move, although a lot of us thought bringing in Bill Musgrave last year should of already done that...

I can understand why there is post after post comparing and predicting how this move gets us in the top 5 in offense year after year ala KC. That very well may happen, but lets be realistic.

1-This is the NFC East, not the AFC West-look at the defenses KC has gone up against over the last several seasons compared to Philly, Dallas, and- to a lesser degree -even NY. We won't be rolling mad rushing stats on the Raiders and Chargers twice a year. Until this season Denver and SD had real problems defensively also, and the Raiders defense has been a black hole for a long time.

2- We have no Will Shields or Willie Roaf to grate the road for Clinton the way they do for Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson. If you need further evidence of the significance of this, please see the Seattle Seahawks' O line and their MVP running back in the Super Bowl in a few weeks-thats how they got there.(Intersting that they also played weaker divisional defenses this year) I like Samuels and Jansen more than a lot of people on this board, but still, our line is nowhere near as good as theirs, which is arguably the best in the league.

3- Saunders has no FB here, he does have the best H Back in the league, however. Cooley will be used to catch balls and stretch defenses-not run block. I think this will be one of the most exciting prospects on how he utilizes such a big weapon. Point is- a blocking FB did big things for their rushing production and that just won't be present here.

4- There is only 1 Tony Gonzalez and trying to fit either Cooley or Robert Royal into his shoes is a set up for a let down. That production will have to come from somewhere else, or a combination of places and is a huge factor especially in the redzone, where the 'New Gibbs' has struggled. IMO, Saunders has been brought in for this sole purpose-Help inside the 20.

5-Santana Moss is a far better receiver than Eddie Kennison is, and the second most exciting part of big Al coming to town will be how Saunders gets him open. Kennison gets his 1000 yards, though- largely because there are other receiver threats the defense has to deal with, but mostly because those defenses must respect the run blocking that KC's line is capable of putting on any DLine in the NFL.

Things are looking up and this is a big move, but its a long offseason and more personell moves will have to be made on offense before we can be as potent as we need to be in our Division with our current lineup.

Yeah...he struggled against NFC East Opponents (non Washington) this year

Philly 353 yards 31 pts

at Dallas 495 yards 28 pts

at NY Giants 362 yards. 17 pts

AVe 403 ypg. 25 ppg.

[hailskins26]

some improvement on O is alweays a goood thing.

[cyfar]

Yeah, that's was the initial reaction I had to Saunder's hire as well and then I read that he wasn't going to install a new offense. He's going to tweak the current one. Which means that he'll change a few things that our offense is already running like updating the passing routes that our receivers will run to better exploit defenses. It's been mentioned several times before that the routes that our recievers run are way too simple. Gibbs started messing with the O a bit by changing the blocking schemes to fit his star running back but neglected to do anything on the passing side of things other than using shotgun and max protecting. I think Saunders may make enough tweaks and will do a good job play calling to help our O produce a lot better than they did in those last 2 or 3 weeks.

[Guest jclrh]

Why are people already saying that Saunders won't work? Why are they comparing our players to KC players?

Next year this won't be KC OFFENSE. This will be SKins offense. Saunders will develop a playbook to put our players in positions to make plays.

Yes, Cooley isn't a Tony G. So, maybe he won't use him like he USED Tony G.

[TheLongshot]

You make good points except for Manuel White ... who was going to get cut until he miraculously got injured and ended up on I/R. It will be interesting to see if he survives training camp.

White probably would have been on the practice squad had he not been injured. Remember, he was learning a new position (H-Back), which from everything I've heard, isn't an easy position to learn.

It will be interesting to see how he does in training camp, particularly under a different coordinator where he might fit a bit better.

Jason

[Oldskool]

1-This is the NFC East, not the AFC West-look at the defenses KC has gone up against over the last several seasons compared to Philly, Dallas, and- to a lesser degree -even NY. We won't be rolling mad rushing stats on the Raiders and Chargers twice a year. Until this season Denver and SD had real problems defensively also, and the Raiders defense has been a black hole for a long time.

AFC west hasnt been a pushover division in a while my friend. Denver and SD have been solid against the run for years. Only recently (last year or two) has the Raiders run defense been suspect.

2- We have no Will Shields or Willie Roaf to grate the road for Clinton the way they do for Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson. If you need further evidence of the significance of this, please see the Seattle Seahawks' O line and their MVP running back in the Super Bowl in a few weeks-thats how they got there.(Intersting that they also played weaker divisional defenses this year) I like Samuels and Jansen more than a lot of people on this board, but still, our line is nowhere near as good as theirs, which is arguably the best in the league.

We have two guys named Jansen and Thomas. They might be lacking in experience comapred to shields and roaf but are just as talented. Besides they have the luxury of playing on the same side of the line, compared to Roaf and Shields who play on opposite sides of the center.

3- Saunders has no FB here, he does have the best H Back in the league, however. Cooley will be used to catch balls and stretch defenses-not run block. I think this will be one of the most exciting prospects on how he utilizes such a big weapon. Point is- a blocking FB did big things for their rushing production and that just won't be present here.

There is no true FB on this team, but I bet you that Mike Sellers will be moved to that position. Richardson is 6'1" and 238 lbs. Sellers is 6'3" 277 lbs and is a professional hitter and blocker. Cooley will be used in the same way that Gonzalez was used in KC.

4- There is only 1 Tony Gonzalez and trying to fit either Cooley or Robert Royal into his shoes is a set up for a let down. That production will have to come from somewhere else, or a combination of places and is a huge factor especially in the redzone, where the 'New Gibbs' has struggled. IMO, Saunders has been brought in for this sole purpose-Help inside the 20.

True there is only one TG, but Gonzalez was the only true receiving threat on that team. If Gibbs gets anothter WR threat opposite Moss and Cooley keeps improving at H-back, then it will offset Gonzalez's production and even surpass it.

5-Santana Moss is a far better receiver than Eddie Kennison is, and the second most exciting part of big Al coming to town will be how Saunders gets him open. Kennison gets his 1000 yards, though- largely because there are other receiver threats the defense has to deal with, but mostly because those defenses must respect the run blocking that KC's line is capable of putting on any DLine in the NFL.

Again your not making sense here. Portis had a stellar year with 8 men in the box and Moss being doubled. Add a legit #2 WR, better blocking technique, more dynamic play calling and you have the makings of having a very good offense.

[illone]

Cooley is better than Gonzalez:doh:

[mikeyf316]

I think what Saunders brings to the table is the ability to know the skills and limitations of his players, and design / call plays within those limits. We've got a bunch of offensive weapons, and don't really need to change the scope of their assignments right now. We just need to develop the right plays to maximize the players' effectiveness, and I think Saunders helps us do that.

[SlobberKnockinFootball]

2- We have no Will Shields or Willie Roaf to grate the road for Clinton the way they do for Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson. If you need further evidence of the significance of this, please see the Seattle Seahawks' O line and their MVP running back in the Super Bowl in a few weeks-thats how they got there.(Intersting that they also played weaker divisional defenses this year) I like Samuels and Jansen more than a lot of people on this board, but still, our line is nowhere near as good as theirs, which is arguably the best in the league. [/i]

Question... Since we don't have a left side of the line like a KC or Sea. If Hutchinson becomes a free agent (highly doubtful) and with Samuels already in place. Do you try and bolster that left side of the line in acquiring Hutch to be comparable to KC's and SEA? Does Snyder and Gibbs somehow make that contract fit?

[themurf]

The biggest problem I have with your arguement here is that you've basically said that Al Saunders was only good because of the pieces he had in Kansas City. You sound like an Al Saunders offense without Tony Gonzalez and Willie Roaf will never work. The reason men like Saunders and Gibbs are successful is their ability to maximize whatever assets they have.

[Guest Dave959]

Keep in mind Saunders was also an assistant in St. Louis and its obvious the Rams strengths were much different than what they are in KC. Theres no doubt he'll adjust to the talent in Washington as well.