IM A REDSKIN FAN Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Held out to get Vince Young?? We should trade LaVar and Ramsey for Vince's Draft Rights! .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Held out to get Vince Young?? We should trade LaVar and Ramsey for Vince's Draft Rights! .... Here we go ago again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wysknz1 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 . My point is, you can't judge ONE player when looking at getting to and winning Super Bowls. It takes a TEAM to win Super Bowls just like it takes a TEAM to lose them or not get to them .[/quote Elway in all his greatness needed a running back and didn't win a SB till he got one. Also could one prob with a scrambling QB be that they never "hang in" till the receiver gets open? Always too quick to run vs. take the hit to complete the pass?:2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Why do people include Elway in there? That's an illegitimate argument. Elway didn't win because the AFC was not nearly the NFC's equal and his team wasn't as talented as the opponents he faced. He DID get to the SB. He stayed in the pocket because he was OLD. LOL please do not bring Elway into this. I love how people have to invent in order to buttress their claims. I'm also looking at the stats and they do not quite support the Steve Young claims. He ran 58 times in 1994 but his average was down to 5.1 (some of that might be kneeldowns) He scored 7 TDs, though. He ran more a couple years earlier and true, he did improve staying at home but he had a QB rating of 120 in 1989! He had a QB rating of 100 plus in the three years LEADING UP to his SB run. I'd make the argument that Young won because it was his team's time. They had great players on that team and were just explosive in the run and pass game. It really had nothing to do with him 'growing' as a QB. Maybe he 'grew' years earlier, but if his team was good, they probably would have won beforehand or afterwards. He only won once. McNair took time to develop but he was still excellent at running when his team came pretty close to winning a SB. Roethlisberger was a gunslinger who threw tons of passes in college and put his team on his back in the pass game. He runs or uses his mobility a lot now, but I'm sure we'll hear how he "learned to play in the pocket" if he wins a Bowl. McNabb turned into more of a pocket passer but isn't clutch and it has nothing to do with his 'scrambling ability.' I'll be honest, I think the whole "running QB" thing is a myth. It relies on the fact that certain teams weren't that GOOD. If you get to the SB you did something right. IT may be that the VIkes weren't as good as the teams they lost to, or that certain guys are winners UP TO a certain level but can't finish. RUnning as a QB is an easy scapegoat. Relying on your mobility can be detriment, but the fact of being a mobile QB isn't a negative and I think the 'development' of running QBs is exaggerated to make people feel they have an argument. How many 'running' QBs have there been? Where is the line between running and mobile? How many have been in the league? Randall just didn't grasp Ds well or have short game accuracy but dude had GREAT passing years. Maybe he just wasn't equipped to go to the Bowl and win it (until he got older.) Maybe it took him that long to learn the game Sure, a lot of these guys rely on their ability in college and thus don't polish up until they get to the league, but LOTS of QBs need to polish up before they can lead a SB team. Shaun King came THIS Close to being in the SB vs. Tennessee. Was he good? (he was mobile but not a runner) If he had been in, would people be talking about how you need a guy who will pass before run? --------- About Young, Art mentioned his delivery. I'd like to point to a guy who couldn't outrun me limping with a Camaro in Kosar--he had a true sidearm delivery and was a pretty good QB. Carr has a 3/4 delivery (not a great Qb but it's not his delivery.) And everyone's favorite old mobile guy, Brunell isn't exactly a tower of strength at 6-1 and he hasn't particularly been a good pocket passer (intermediate game) since he's been here. Vince can throw the short and medium stuff with good accuracy. I'm not saying he won't have to look at changing his style, but let's see him play a little with it. His athletic ability, like many advantages, helps offset his deficiencies. He also showed improvement from one year to another that a lot of guys don't. I'm not so sure his delivery will kill his career if it didn't kill Kosar's (and how tall was Kosar?) But yeah, I agree he should work on a bunch of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek1973 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 yea he is a great player but you know what? What Texas calls offense you will never see in the pros. What I like about Jason is that he run a pro-like offense and was very successful with it. Now couple with the fact that Gibbs offense is very much the same (running game with play action) I say Campbell is a much nicer fit for us. Don't forget what Vick did in college also and you know what. I don't want him as a skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red zone Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 SC's D is suspect and Young's throwing motion is hedious. No thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebornempowered Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 What I like about Jason is that he run a pro-like offense and was very successful with it. Now couple with the fact that Gibbs offense is very much the same (running game with play action) I say Campbell is a much nicer fit for us. My guess is that guy on the sidelines whose name is in Canton, Ohio thought the exact same things when he made the decision to draft him. Can anyone honestly see Gibbs with a Vick or Young as QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_was54321 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 My guess is that guy on the sidelines whose name is in Canton, Ohio thought the exact same things when he made the decision to draft him.Can anyone honestly see Gibbs with a Vick or Young as QB? No I can't. You guys are right. They don't fit Gibbs style. I like the grooming process Campbell is getting now. Not "throwing him to the Wolves" like a lot of other recent young QBs have had to do is a good idea. That philosophy hasn't worked too well (except for Troy Aikman). I think Brunell has one more year, then they work in Campbell for 2007- perfect timing. If the Redskins got Young, regardless if he is better or not (I think not) that "grooming" timeline would be thrown off 2 or 3 years and the Redskins would have to find another QB in the interim after Brunell. Campbell is our man. Lets focus on D-Line, DB, O-Line depth. Gibbs has a knack for getting value with later draft picks/trades/acquistitions there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcl05 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 My 2 cents: Background: I've lived in Texas for two years, lifelong skins fan. Not a UT fan, but have watched almost all there games due to proximity. Not going to get into the JC vs. VY debate because I haven't actually seen enough of JC to evaluate. Vince Young was absolutely phenomenal all season. Last night really captured and displayed all his abilities, as well as the remaining questions regarding his translation to the next level. The best thing about VY is that he is a winner - a leader. His pocket presence reminds me of Montana - super cool, relaxed, joking. He really brings out the best in his teammates too. His teammates constantly talk about him cracking jokes, singing songs, and dancing during last minute, high-pressure drives. For some QBs, that comes across as not taking it seriously enough. For VY, his tone is just right so his team is loose, ready, and effective. I think this will translate well to the NFL, and is a quality that, while difficult to measure, is invaluable to a pro QB. Regarding his throwing abilities: He does have a odd, short-arm throwing motion. So did Kosar. So does Carr. He gets plenty of zip on the ball and very rarely gets anything knocked down (being 6'5" helps). He throws a great "deep out" and a nice corner jump-ball (see the OSU game for example), but they do run a limited number of routes. They don't run many true deep fly routes, so its hard to say what kind of touch he'd have on a deep ball. Running the ball: What else to say after last night. He was unbelievable. He is remarkable at evading or breaking tackles. He almost never goes down to the first contact. Part of it is shiftiness, part is brute strength. Wrapping up his legs doesn't do much, he just runs through. What's nice about his running is that he doesn't dance in the pocket much. You very rarely see the big losses on sacks that get Vick in trouble. He goes through his progressions well, and decides quick on whether to throw or run. Once he's running, he picks a hole fast and has great burst into the secondary. One of the big benefits of his size and strength is that he's remarkably tough to sack. Remember the play last night when the safety had him completely wrapped up for a sack and he just stood there and winged the ball to the FB? He's done that all year. The big question: The biggest issue with VY going pro is whether his skills will translate well into a typical NFL offense. He has run essentially an exclusively shotgun spread offense in college. We haven't seen him take a 3- or 5- step drop from center and read and react to a defense. This is a pretty major issue, and probably means that he needs at least a year of hard-core practice and training under a good QB coach. Bottom line: I think VY has the arm strength and decision making to make all the NFL throws, even though we haven't seen it yet at the college level. I am not sure he'll have the field vision to translate his skills easily to a drop-back system. His running will always be a plus in the NFL. I don't see him as a Vick-type scrambler/dancer - more of a McNabb/Young type who can have some effective designed runs/draws, can salvage broken plays, and can certainly be tough to bring down in the pocket. The best thing about VY is his leadership. He stays loose, and his teammates believe in him. Whatever the "it" is that great QBs have to bring the best out of their team, he's got it (at least at the college level). If I were Houston, I'd think long and hard about bringing in an innovative offensive head coach with a creative QB coach, drafting VY and letting him sit behind Carr for a year or two. With the right coaching, he could be scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrepDC Posted January 5, 2006 Author Share Posted January 5, 2006 When I first started this thread I should've been more specific. I really just wanted to discuss how Young would have been on our team. I probably shouldn't have mentioned Campbell because I think people got the wrong idea. I like Campbell, he IS our future. This was just one of those [notorius] "what if" threads. This ended up being the Young vs. Campbell / Mobile QB vs. Pocket QB thread. I just wanted to see what you all thought of Young. It's clear that many people think he will be a bust. Well, I guess we will have to wait and see(just like with Campbell by the way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 I have stated this numerous times already on this site. I'm sitting here watching the national championship now wondering WHAT IF. I understand that we haven't seen Campbell play yet, but, the kinda trade we did to get Campbell might have gotten us a guy like Young. We probably would've had to throw in maybe one more players or draft picks but it would've been worth it imo. Earlier this year when I said this a lot of people on this site weren't sold on Vince Young yet but anyone who watched the National Championship should believe me by now. I understand that now this isn't possible because we already have our QB of the future. But man, it is fun just THINKING about if we could've went after Young. The guy is a BETTER scrambler than Vick and he is a LEGIT passer unlike Vick. He is like Culppeper, McNabb AND Vick rolled up in one. This guy is AMAZING. What do you all think. :2cents: It is complete hogwash to suggest that the kind of trade that got us Campbell could get us a player like Young. Just for reference – the Giants traded up from #4 to #1 to secure the services of Eli Manning. To move up just 3 spots to the #1 pick, it cost them a 3 and a 1st and 5th the following year. That 1st ended up being the #12 overall pick (defensive rookie of the year Shawn Merrimen) and the 3rd rounder ended up being their starting Center – Nick Hardwick. Should he come out, Young will be rated higher than Manning so the cost would be higher. We’re picking in the early 20s this year folks if we never made the Campbell trade. In order to make a dramatic move from say 21 to #1, it would cost us more than a Ricky Williams bounty in picks. When you ask a team to trade down that far (I’ve never seen it done) you are asking them to forgo the proverbial “sure thing” for picks that are solid but fare from a “sure thing.” That means you need to include proven players who ARE a sure thing to make it happen IN ADDITION to picks. My guess is that in order to make the leap from #21 to #1 – it would cost us Sean Taylor, Patrick Ramsey, our 2nd round pick, and #3 next season. Vince Young = Sean Taylor, Pat Ramsey, #21 overall in 2005, #53 overall in 2005, 3rd rounder in 2006 ?????? Still having fun thinking about the possibilities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_was54321 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 When I first started this thread I should've been more specific. I really just wanted to discuss how Young would have been on our team. I probably shouldn't have mentioned Campbell because I think people got the wrong idea. I like Campbell, he IS our future. This was just one of those [notorius] "what if" threads. This ended up being the Young vs. Campbell / Mobile QB vs. Pocket QB thread. I just wanted to see what you all thought of Young. It's clear that many people think he will be a bust. Well, I guess we will have to wait and see(just like with Campbell by the way). You're right. I think Young is amazing. I think if we had him somehow, hypothetically, that Gibbs would find a way to make it work. I am not trying to compare Campbell/Young. I am just saying that it would be impractical to get him considering we already have Campbell. Young will have a very bright future in the NFL. Last night's game was simply amazing and the Redskins would be lucky to have him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer Ted Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 We’re picking in the early 20s this year folks if we never made the Campbell trade.QUOTE]Our pick is going to be 32nd next year.:helmet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 This is a really funny running diary of the Rose Bowl. Enjoy. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060105 8:40 -- Let's be honest -- there's no way Vince can succeed in the NFL with that throwing motion. It's impossible. It can't happen. I'm telling you. There has never been a successful NFL quarterback who threw like that. And by "that," I mean, "throws like someone who just realized they have dog poop on their hand and is trying to fling it off." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrepDC Posted January 5, 2006 Author Share Posted January 5, 2006 It is complete hogwash to suggest that the kind of trade that got us Campbell could get us a player like Young. Just for reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebornempowered Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 And by "that," I mean, "throws like someone who just realized they have dog poop on their hand and is trying to fling it off." :laugh: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kounter Trey Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 I'm just hoping that Campbell has picked up a lot from Gibbs, Brunell, etc. this year and is therefore that much closer to being an NFL-caliber QB. I have no dog in the V. Young fight. I kind of expect to see Campbell take over sometime in the latter half of next season, but who knows? Most people seem to have him penciled in for '07. I happen to think it's likely the aging Brunell will get hurt and be supplanted.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regularjoe Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 As good as Young was, I was not impressed with the SC defense. Poor tackling, losing containment, telegraphing their blitzes (I also thought their blitz packages were awful) - it was a comedy of errors that ought to have Carroll go back to the drawing board. I think VY is a great prospect but I'm not 100% convinced it'll translate to the NFL. He's certainly not going to be able to run wild like he did in college and as a thrower, I don't think he's any that much better than Leinart, Brady, or anybody else in college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrepDC Posted January 5, 2006 Author Share Posted January 5, 2006 This is a really funny running diary of the Rose Bowl. Enjoy.http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060105 8:40 -- Let's be honest -- there's no way Vince can succeed in the NFL with that throwing motion. It's impossible. It can't happen. I'm telling you. There has never been a successful NFL quarterback who threw like that. And by "that," I mean, "throws like someone who just realized they have dog poop on their hand and is trying to fling it off." You sound like one of the Atlanta Falcons' scouts 13 years ago. "Yeah, that number 4 kid will never make it in the NFL with that throwing motion. I don't know why we drafted him. Let's trade him to Green Bay for some back ups." Never say never buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 You sound like one of the Atlanta Falcons' scouts 13 years ago. "Yeah, that number 4 kid will never make it in the NFL with that throwing motion. I don't know why we drafted him. Let's trade him to Green Bay for some back ups." Never say never buddy. Read the link smart guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da#1skinsfan Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Looks like a two-bit Michael Vick to me. Not to take anything away from the guy, but doing what he does on the college level just doesnt sell me as an NFL QB. Not interested at ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HittinSkinz Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 you guys have to remember one thing...the NFL game is much different from the college game. NFL defense would eat up vince young Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlito Sway Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 I don't expect The Skins to have a pick high enough anytime soon . . . so forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 I'll first say that I have never seen Vince Young play, so I'm just taking stuff from this thread. From the sound of things Vince is a talented individual who needs lots of polishing. It means he probably won't be ready to play when he's drafted, and probably shouldn't play until he's gotten some schooling, so he doesn't get into too many bad habits. Running the ball is fine, but to win in the NFL, you need to be able to throw the ball and be a threat that way. No doubt Vick gets by with his athletic abilities, but like all QBs who make their living with their feet, it isn't going to translate into wins until they are also a threat throwing the ball. The fact that Vince seems to be intelligent and learns gives some hope for the future for him. At the same time, getting back to the subject of this post, is that what we really need as a QB on this team? The original argument was that we should have waited for Vince Young instead of picking Campbell. Problem is, there is no guarantee that he will come out in this draft, and no guarantee that we can get into a position to pick him. Meanwhile, we picked Campbell last year, which gives him at least an extra year on Young, plus Campbell seems to be the more polished passer, which also gives him a head start on Young. Sure, Campbell probably doesn't scramble quite as well, or is as fast or as strong, but those aspects aren't quite as important in the NFL as being able to throw the ball. We keep hearing that the running QB is the "new wave" in the NFL, and every time we see one, we think he's going to change everything. Well, the NFL adjusts, and in the end, you still need to throw the ball to win. I fell good about JC because I think he fits in perfectly with what Joe Gibbs asks of a QB. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyf316 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 He has a great passer rating because he had a cupcake schedule. I'm sorry, are you kidding me? Texas beat four teams who ended up in Bowls! Ohio State - Fiesta Bowl, beat Notre Dame. Missouri - Independance Bowl, beat SC Oklahoma - Holiday Bowl, beat Oregon Colorado - Champs Sports Bowl, lost to Clemson. Colorado again in the Big XII Championship game. I'm not listing USC stats because I'm not knocking the road they had to take to get to the Rose Bowl. But playing the lineup seen above, and winning easily (with a close game at Ohio State) pretty clearly demonstrates that Texas didn't have a "cupcake" schedule. And for the record, the Ohio State game which was so close, was won with Young's ARM. http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/recap?gid=200509100033 "...Young threw a 24-yard go-ahead touchdown to Limas Sweed with 2:37 left and No. 2 Texas defeated No. 4 Ohio State 25-22..." Not an indicator that he's a great passer by any means, but it does show that he has the ability to win with his arm when the opportunity presents itself. EDIT: http://www.nationalchamps.net/2005/sub/sos/index.htm Preseason Strength of Schedule 24. Texas 63. USC 1. Notre Dame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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