We should've held out for a guy like Vince Young

[mikeyf316]

last 2 rose bowls, vince young 0 td passes

Let me give you some context.

Superbowl VIII

Miami 24, Minnesota 7

Minnesota QB stats

18-28, 182 yards

4 Rush, 17 yards, 1 TD

Superbowl IX

Pittsburg 16, Minnesota 6

Minnesota QB stats

11-26, 102 yards

1 rush, 0 yards

The Minnesota Quarterback?

Fran Tarkenton. For those not familliar: http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=209

The Context?

Vince WON both his Bowl Games.

The message?

Don't get wrapped around a statistic like that without considering the peripherals. I believe that seven rushing TDs, coupled with his previously mentioned statistics, still make him a hot prospect, and lead me to believe that he will be a solid performer in the pros.

[IrepDC]

The main critism I am noticing about Vince Young is his technique. I don't think he is the first QB to come out of college with raw technique. I think the key for him will be which team drafts him, and what coaches end up working with him. If he gets some good coaching, like Campbell is getting now, he will be a beast.

Another critism I have noticed is he will get hit more. I can't argue with that. He will take a few hits, but, he isn't exactly a small guy. I think he may dish out a few hits as well, kinda like Culpepper or Mcnabb(who ironically were both injured this year).

I hope Young does get drafted to a good team(coaching wise) that can help him with his throwing motions. I still think Vick has potential if he gets better coaching. I guess we will just have to see.

[RedskinzOwnU]

Look dudes. No one ever said young can't throw, he wouldn't be a QB if he couldnt throw. I'm lookin at your stats from his rose bowl performances and the guy has almost as many rush yds as pass yds. That means what? That means he likes to run? Good glad we got that far. Running QBs - do they work in the NFL? Answer - No. See Michal Vick, QB, Atlanta Falcons. On every important down for the longhorns tonight, and in every big play, it wasn't made in the air, it was made on the ground. His few deep throws all failed miserably, and one of them was almost picked off. Vince didn't throw the ball in one make-or-break situation, he ran it. Maybe his receivers were covered, maybe he couldn't find them, maybe he couldn't get to them - the bottom line is he relies on the run. And while he did a fabulous job of faking out those little kids on the USC defense, that crap straight up doesn't work in the NFL.

You wanna cite completion percentage? Good for you. It's irrelevant. You can throw high percentage passes all day and still not get anywhere. The offensive system plays a large role in that statistic. I don't want a running QB, nor will I in the future. If you say Young is not a running QB, you're wrong. He made a deep pass against Ohio State? Fabulous. I guess that means he's not a running QB.

Am I a homer because I choose campbell? No. I'd take campbell over vick. I'd take brunell over vick. You conflate the two issues, and thats your own error. I'd take them over young too. He's a fabulous athlete, but I flat out don't trust running QBs, and I've seen nothing to make me think otherwise. When one wins the superbowl, maybe I'll reconsider.

When you draft a stud QB, you want a premier passer. I don't need a track star behind center. I need someone that can consistently make the tough throws, and I don't mean hitting wide open guys.

[SkinsFTW]

Damn, some of you guys are putting him into the HOF already based on a game in which he ran for almost many yards as he passed for. He had 3 rushing touchdowns and 0 passing. If anything this game makes it look like he might be a better RB than a QB in the NFL.

College football isn't the same thing as the NFL. Vick can win with his legs several games a year but until he is a QB that can defeat playoff teams and those teams gameplanning his game he isn't going anywhere. Same with Randall Cunningham, same with John Elway until he became a pocket passer and the same with Steve Young until his team talent was head and shoulders above the competition. Run first Quarterbacks are never going to win anything. And if I am wrong then tell me when the last one has and I'll tell you it wasn't because of their running.

Some may point to this game or that as evidence but look at the game against Rice. They were a 1-10 team. Texas beat them 51-10 and it had nothing to do with Young. He was 8-14 with 1 INT. Against Ohio State he had 2 TD's and 2 Ints. Sure they won, but he made bad passes and that was the reason the game was as close as it was and Texas is a better team than Ohio State. Ohio State played pretty close games all year, Texas blew everybody out.

Besides the game today and the Ohio State game they were blowing teams out by 30-60 points a game. When your team is up 45-10 a pass is probably going to be a high% play. Of course he had a great completion % and he might be a good NFL player but I still think Campbell could be better in the end due to his better passing ability.

In the 4 Texas games that were close for most of the game, against Ohio State, OK State, and Texas A&M, USC, Young threw 5TD's and 4Ints. Not exactly impressive but the fact is QB's might look awesome in college but at least 1/2 of the first rounders never do anything in the NFL. I don't think looking at his numbers tell you much of anything because the competition is weaker. And when in doubt this guy is running, something he will not be able to get away with much in the pros.

Couch, Shuler, Leaf, etc all looked amasing before they got to the Pros. Vick looks amasing at times too but he is never going to win anything until he becomes a QB.

[J-Rad]

How would you ever ensure that we could get a guy like Vince Young through the draft? Only by getting a top 2, MAYBE 3 pick. If he's really that good, we have to stink in order to ever have a shot.

Sorry, I'll take the playoffs. The premise that we could have held out for VY is ridiculous.

[mikeyf316]

Vick looks amasing at times too but he is never going to win anything until he becomes a QB.

I get where your arguement is going, and though it's points are entirely accurate, the arguement itself is misplaced. I think we've all agreed that he needs work on his passing game. We've also agreed that he's a great athlete, and tends to make most of his plays with his legs.

The arguement over Young started when people started posting mindless drivel saying "He's like Vick, he sucks" without adding any logical content. It's not that anybody's trying to put him in the hall of fame, it's that some people have basically inferred that he doesn't even deserve a shot in the NFL. That's what I have had issue with.

The kid has huge talent, but, as virtually all rookies, needs polish. No doubt about that. The question was basically, would you swap Young for JC? I started on the Young side, but have gotten a lot of information on JC that I need to analyze before deciding where I am going to fall. Lots of good points on both sides of the arguement. The only reason I am still in the room is that a few people (yourself included) have put some effort into their posts, and have made it an interesting topic.

:applause:

[IrepDC]

You guys are going overboard on the Vick criticisms. They were in the NFC championship game just last year. Don't try to make it seem like the Falcons franchise is in disarray because they just BARELY missed the playoffs this year. Vick isn't lighting up the airways but he has been winning games.

[mikeyf316]

The premise that we could have held out for VY is ridiculous.

Not according to everybody on the Tee-Vee. We were supposed to be a 4-12 washout, remember? Had that been the case (and I'm glad it wasn't), and the Portis trade hadn't involved our draft pick, we'd be bringing this question up realistically rather than hypothetically. I am sure that if we hadn't picked up Portis in trade, we may well have selected a RB from the draft that year instead of JC. That would leave us needing a future QB.

[SkinsFTW]

You guys are going overboard on the Vick criticisms. They were in the NFC championship game just last year. Don't try to make it seem like the Falcons franchise is in disarray because they just BARELY missed the playoffs this year. Vick isn't lighting up the airways but he has been winning games.

Vick won't win anything as long as he is a run first QB. Elway didn't, Cunningham didn't, Tarkenton didn't, and Young didn't.

Name one who has?

[SkinsFTW]

Not according to everybody on the Tee-Vee. We were supposed to be a 4-12 washout, remember? Had that been the case (and I'm glad it wasn't), and the Portis trade hadn't involved our draft pick, we'd be bringing this question up realistically rather than hypothetically. I am sure that if we hadn't picked up Portis in trade, we may well have selected a RB from the draft that year instead of JC. That would leave us needing a future QB.

And if iffs and buts had nuts we'd have a Planters Peanuts plantation on our hands.

[IrepDC]

Vick won't win anything as long as he is a run first QB. Elway didn't, Cunningham didn't, Tarkenton didn't, and Young didn't.

Name one who has?

You are right, no run 1st QB has won a Super Bowl. But guys like Vick and Young are a NEW breed. Only time will tell what kind of success these new guys will have. As of right now Vick's career has been pretty good. He may not put up great stats but he does win games. The Falcons always have a shot at winning with vick on the field. He has already led his team INTO Green Bay and won, he has already led his team to a NFC championship game. So, no this type of QB hasn't won the big one but they have one games. And that's what it comes down to, winning games. Vince Young does it and for the most part so does Vick. To imply that not winning the Super Bowl is because of scrambling is foolish. Dan Marino, one of the greatest pocket passers ever, never won a Super Bowl. What does that mean???

[IrepDC]

Vick won't win anything as long as he is a run first QB. Elway didn't, Cunningham didn't, Tarkenton didn't, and Young didn't.

Name one who has?

[SkinsFTW]

You are right, no run 1st QB has won a Super Bowl. But guys like Vick and Young are a NEW breed. Only time will tell what kind of success these new guys will have. As of right now Vick's career has been pretty good. He may not put up great stats but he does win games. The Falcons always have a shot at winning with vick on the field. He has already led his team INTO Green Bay and won, he has already led his team to a NFC championship game. So, no this type of QB hasn't won the big one but they have one games. And that's what it comes down to, winning games. Vince Young does it and for the most part so does Vick. To imply that not winning the Super Bowl is because of scrambling is foolish. Dan Marino, one of the greatest pocket passers ever, never won a Super Bowl. What does that mean???

Dude, you don't get it. Fran Tarkenton came into the league in 1960 and was the greatest running QB ever until Randall Cunningham came around. The thing is he lost 3 Super Bowls. Running QB's have never won a SB and I don't see gibbs standing in line trying to get one so he can be the first. And thats exactly what he will have to do because those guys get drafted high without justification. Vick can go and get to a wild card game next year, and a NFCCG the year after that but thats not what Redskins fans are looking for.

And Marino never won a SB because Shula got old, his team never got a good RB like Elway's team did and the defense was never what it was in the 70's and early 80's. The Dolphins blew it big time by not getting a team around that guy because honestly he was maybe one of the 2-3 best ever. Better than Favre by a longshot and better than any QB we have ever had here. Marino was the reason their OL looked so good on passing downs because he got rid of the ball faster than anyone ever has and probably will.

[mikeyf316]

And if iffs and buts had nuts we'd have a Planters Peanuts plantation on our hands.

I have stated this numerous times already on this site. I'm sitting here watching the national championship now wondering WHAT IF.

Maybe you missed it on the way in, but this entire thread is a WHAT IF. Check the first post. Discouraging "what if" thinking on this thread goes completely against the point that IrepDC is attempting to express. Agree with his stance or disagree with it, as you may either with mine. But don't try to shut down discussing the topic because you don't want to look at other avenues which might have been available to the team. Again, looking at other avenues is the entire point of this thread.

[SkinsFTW]

Yeah but to wait until 2007 for this guy and then to go 3-13 so that we can pick him is pretty retarded to even think about.

I mean, seriously. Why is a team that already has 2 first round QB's on it even thinking about a guy who likes to run the ball and has problems with his passing mechanics?

I have a feeling that this is exactly the kind of QB that Joe Gibbs would want nothing to do with. It was stated earler that he only became a good QB after the coaches stopped trying to fix his problems. Gibbs would never consider putting this guy in the game until he was totally inline with what he expects. If that wasn't the truth then Ramsey would be starting right now.

[TankRizzo]

Vince Young will NOT be a good NFL QB. He's not a good passer, he simply relies on his legs. That kind of stuff works in college but simply doesn't fly in the NFL.

[mikeyf316]

This next draft will have a host of QBs who will all have a shot at being great, and next year will be no different, as the Brady Quinns and who all come out. I've never advocated losing to "win" the draft, and wouldn't do it here.

My point is that if Brunell wouldn't have found his spark this season, we may not have had a choice in going 3-13. I'm sure the Packers didn't plan on residing in the outhouse this year, but they stink just the same. I bet the Texans and 49ers didn't either, with their top prospect QBs.

We're lucky enough to have the best Coach in the game; one who's smart enough to move some pieces around and assess talent down to the finest detail. Despite that to our benefit, Brunell could have folded this year due to age and / or injury. That would have left us with Ramsey, who hasn't been an outright stud. At least, I don't think he'd have performed to the level that Leftwich's backup in Jacksonville did. We could be talking about needing a QB for real if JC wasn't already on the roster, and we could be in a much worse position than we are currently. That's been the point of this thread.

If we found ourself in that kind of position, which we very well could have, would Young have been our best prospect in the upcoming draft (assuming he comes out)?

I'm still not sure, but I know I would be impressed with him as an athlete.

[IrepDC]

Dude, you don't get it. Fran Tarkenton came into the league in 1960 and was the greatest running QB ever until Randall Cunningham came around. The thing is he lost 3 Super Bowls. Running QB's have never won a SB and I don't see gibbs standing in line trying to get one so he can be the first. And thats exactly what he will have to do because those guys get drafted high without justification. Vick can go and get to a wild card game next year, and a NFCCG the year after that but thats not what Redskins fans are looking for.

And Marino never won a SB because Shula got old, his team never got a good RB like Elway's team did and the defense was never what it was in the 70's and early 80's. The Dolphins blew it big time by not getting a team around that guy because honestly he was maybe one of the 2-3 best ever. Better than Favre by a longshot and better than any QB we have ever had here. Marino was the reason their OL looked so good on passing downs because he got rid of the ball faster than anyone ever has and probably will.

So by your assesment, Tarkenton and Vick haven't won Super Bowls because they like to scramble, BUT, Marino didn't win one because of his coach and the team around him.

How come when Vick doesn't get to the big game it's his fault but when Marino doesn't it's everyone elses fault. My point is, you can't judge ONE player when looking at getting to and winning Super Bowls. It takes a TEAM to win Super Bowls just like it takes a TEAM to lose them or not get to them.

That's why my theory is not to look at JUST Super Bowls but all around winning in general. Vick's team WIN's more games with him in the lineup. Just like Texas is WINNING games with Vince in the lineup. Whether you like scrambling QB's or not, the good ones can win a lot of ball games. And, I think once we see guys like Vick and Young surrounded by a great TEAM a scrambling QB WILL win a Super Bowl. Just like Brady needed a TEAM and Montana needed a TEAM and any other Super Bowl QB needs a TEAM. Super Bowl's are irrelevant in this conversation imo.

[mikeyf316]

Vince Young will NOT be a good NFL QB. He's not a good passer, he simply relies on his legs. That kind of stuff works in college but simply doesn't fly in the NFL.

Again, I refer you back to Tarkenton. http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=209

"But particularly in his early years, Tarkenton attracted widespread attention as an exciting scrambler who took plays from sideline to sideline."

I'd say it happens.

I'd also say that despite starting as a scrambler, Tarkenton developed his game to become a much, much better passer.

Nobody is even inferring that Young is good to go as is. Rather, he needs a lot of work on his passing game. But to state that he is not a good passer ignores his outstanding QB rating and good passing statistics this year (referenced earlier in the thread). He's not good at deep passes; a major weakness in his passing game. When you stretch his arm over 25 yards, it does lose a great deal of accuracy. However, his short yardage game is pretty good right now. Not good enough to start in the NFL, but good enough to come on board and start learning at the next level. And his scrambling ability, coupled with his size, makes him a threat every 3rd and 10.

The point is, don't write him off because you personally can't or won't see his potential. It's there, and it's waiting to be developed and refined.

[SkinsFTW]

So by your assesment, Tarkenton and Vick haven't won Super Bowls because they like to scramble, BUT, Marino didn't win one because of his coach and the team around him.

How come when Vick doesn't get to the big game it's his fault but when Marino doesn't it's everyone elses fault. My point is, you can't judge ONE player when looking at getting to and winning Super Bowls. It takes a TEAM to win Super Bowls just like it takes a TEAM to lose them or not get to them.

That's why my theory is not to look at JUST Super Bowls but all around winning in general. Vick's team WIN's more games with him in the lineup. Just like Texas is WINNING games with Vince in the lineup. Whether you like scrambling QB's or not, the good ones can win a lot of ball games. And, I think once we see guys like Vick and Young surrounded by a great TEAM a scrambling QB WILL win a Super Bowl. Just like Brady needed a TEAM and Montana needed a TEAM and any other Super Bowl QB needs a TEAM. Super Bowl's are irrelevant in this conversation imo.

Wrong.

You are completely ignoring the fact that 39 QB's in 39 Super Bowls have won SB games and not a single one of them has been a run first QB. You claim they are a new breed, I prove you wrong and then you still keep going. The fact is, guys like Young and Elway won Super Bowls after they stopped looking to run out of every bad situation and actually learned how to be a good QB.

[SkinsFTW]

"obody is even inferring that Young is good to go as is. Rather, he needs a lot of work on his passing game. But to state that he is not a good passer ignores his outstanding QB rating and good passing statistics this year (referenced earlier in the thread)."

And you are ignoring that I posted before that his games where he had to pass to win he had 5Tds and 4Ints and the rest were complete blowouts.

[TankRizzo]

Again, I refer you back to Tarkenton. http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=209

The point is, don't write him off because you personally can't or won't see his potential. It's there, and it's waiting to be developed and refined.

He has a great passer rating because he had a cupcake schedule. He's had games where he's tried to sit in the pocket to prove he can be an NFL QB and he looks awful! And Young relies on his scrambling WAY more than Tarkenton did.

Either way, like you said, he's going to be a LONG term project in the NFL and I wouldn't draft him in the first round plain and simple. Someone WILL because they're wowed by his running ability, but that doesn't mean they should, and I think that's why he's not going to be long for the league. Some bad team is going to take him early, rush him into the starting job and he'll be done. If he turns out to be an all pro, I'll eat my words, but I don't think he's got what it takes to be a good pro.

[IrepDC]

Wrong.

You are completely ignoring the fact that 39 QB's in 39 Super Bowls have won SB games and not a single one of them has been a run first QB. You claim they are a new breed, I prove you wrong and then you still keep going. The fact is, guys like Young and Elway won Super Bowls after they stopped looking to run out of every bad situation and actually learned how to be a good QB.

So basically you're saying all that Vick and Young have to do is not be run 1st and they can win a SB. Okay, so a team teaches Young to pass 1st. Case closed, right???

[SkinsFTW]

So basically you're saying all that Vick and Young have to do is not be run 1st and they can win a SB. Okay, so a team teaches Young to pass 1st. Case closed, right???

Pretty much but the Falcons have come to rely on Vick doing what he does. And in the playoffs unless he has the best team in the league around him he will get gameplayed.

Exactly. And Vick doesn't have Rice running routes either.

These guys cannot win Super Bowls because they aren't QB's they are runners. In college and in High School they learned that they can beat everyone by running by them and they never learned what it is to be a passer and how to look off the first option and find the 2nd and 3rd. These guys run when the target is covered and the TE is as well. Add pressure to the equation and you have SB21 SB 22 and SB 24 all over again as well as all 3 Super Bowls that Tarkenton played in.

Running QB's have a hard time getting to the SB but when they do they bow out to superior gameplanning. It has been proven time and time again.

But Gibbs has proven that running the ball, not turning it over, and good defense works. It has worked 3 times for him and there were 4-5 years where it would have worked but we had a young and inexperienced QB running it and it stopped working in the playoffs. Maybe thats why he doesn't want to take a chance with Ramsey.

[TankRizzo]

So basically you're saying all that Vick and Young have to do is not be run 1st and they can win a SB. Okay, so a team teaches Young to pass 1st. Case closed, right???

Easier said than done....just ask Bill Cowher.