Wise - After a Shove, a Fall From Grace (Lavar Shouting Match w/Coach after Sat game)

[GSF]

"...And you know for sure that it wasnt because Lindsey was berrating him to the point of...while cussing him out. You have no clue about the NFL if you dont understand that coaches blow up on players on the sideline and all players do is just walk away. He did the smart thing by hanging up before he said something as stupid as Lindsay did."

not only that...but how about intelligent leadership that shapes itself to what works. not every person is motivated in the same way. that is lesson 101 I learned while leading 100s of people over the course of 20+ years. wihtin pretty wide bounds you figure out, as a leader, what it takes to movitvate your people. sometimes you deviate to catch the "difficult children." this is not just LA's failure - it's a failure of leadership as well.

'62,

I haven't read this entire thread, so maybe I missed it, but have you said how the Skins' leadership has failed? Was it by yelling at Lavar too much on the phone? If a player of Lavar's experience continues to blow assignments, does he not understand the defense, or is he just choosing to do what he wants to do? Really, either of those answers would bring a pretty good tongue lashing from me of I was the coach.

One thing I have a hard time believing is that this staff is singling out Lavar, and treating him differently than the rest of the team. I just can't see that from a coach on Gibbs' staff. The rest of the players though seem to be excelling quite nicely under that same leadership. This is the tighest knit, hardest playing Redskins unti I've seen since '91. To me, it looks like they've all bought in to Gibbs plan, except for Lavar. If the leadership has failed, why haven't any of the other players made an issue of it?

There was a little piece on ESPN the other night about the situation with Lavar. They were interviewing players in the locker room. Springs and Taylor both mentioned howthey couldn't understand the timing of Lavar's comments. Springs kinda rolled his eyes, and Taylor looked just looked pissed off about the whole deal. The interviewer said that some of the players siad off camera that it was a case of Lavar just being Lavar.

[bulldog]

you could see the first signs of Arrington's hubris at Penn State, where Paterno wasn't able to control him and harness his ability.

at the pro level that tendency to ego and to depend on raw skills catches up to you.

Arrington is now 27 and has suffered a succession of knee injuries which have reduced his speed and a degree of his explosiveness.

If he is going to survive in the NFL long-term he is going to have to change his approach/preparation to play the game.

He is going to have to admit to himself he is not at this point in the front rank of linebackers in the NFL and will never rise to the level of a Junior Seau or Ray Lewis without the re-dedication and work effort these players exhibit.

[hoops381]

WTF. I sat here for the last three hours dipping in and out of threads, thinking about Philly. Trying to find a rey of light in the Lavar madness. The GW comments on Redskins.com where encouraging. Then this comes out. Lavar wasn't quoted once in this article. A player in the lockeroom said he wasn't out of line. Yet the only posts in this thread are anti Lavar. I have more respect for UnWise Mike than I do for the guy from the Times. Wise even says that Lavar is not blameless in this whole thing. He is guilty of wearing his heart on his sleeve and being bad with words. But for the love of God can you not see that this organization is doing it again?

Then on Channel 4 they showed Phillip Daniels supporting Lavar, but he looked over his shoulder everytime he wanted to say something nice about Lavar. He said Lavar has been playing great for us, but he had to make sure that the wrong people weren't watching him. This is out of hand. Lav Coles, Stephen Davis and Champ Bailey may have been on to something. All of this is happening basically because Lavar got hurt. Stay healthy Portis, Stay healthy MW, stay healthy Santanna because this organization will turn on you. This is way different than what the Patriots do. The Patriots support their players and when it comes time to cut a player they just do it. They don't play these dam games that we play.

Thank God. I thought I was the only one that actually read the article. It's sickening how the Redskin Faithful turn on the players that were once the talk of the town. Most of the people on this board that berate players like L. Coles were the same ones who called him the hardest working Redskin, a leader, and a JG guy.

Lavar has nothing to do with what these reporters choose to write, and every Lavar Quote from UnWise Mike's article were old ones from earlier in the week. What stood out to me in the article was this:

"When Arrington was hardly playing in late September and early October this season, he saw Snyder in a hallway and was about to offer some pleasantries. "Don't talk to me," the owner said, according to a person who saw the encounter. "I didn't have anything to do with this.""

So who is taking things personally. Sounds to me like Mr. Snyder has an agenda against Lavar similar to the one he had against Mr. Coles.

[zoony]

He is going to have to admit to himself he is not at this point in the front rank of linebackers in the NFL and will never rise to the level of a Junior Seau or Ray Lewis without the re-dedication and work effort these players exhibit.

wow... imagine if you could couple Lavar's athleticism with Antonio Pierce's work ethic.

It wouldn't be fair... the NFL would probably have to step in and not allow Lavar to play because opposing offenses just didn't stand a chance

[Ghost of]

you could see the first signs of Arrington's hubris at Penn State, where Paterno wasn't able to control him and harness his ability.

will never rise to the level of a Junior Seau or Ray Lewis without the re-dedication and work effort these players exhibit.

Yeah guy was just named to Penn State's all-century team, won national awards at LB and for defensive players. Wait, I think I have the pat response: "Those awards are based on popularity, man. Except when they boost up guys we still like." You're not supposed to "control" every kind of player the same way. He was a dominant defensive player, it's kind of hard to imagine him being worlds better by being 'harnessed,' as you put it.

This leads right into what Davis and Woodson said on Access last night. They both with big smiles and enthusiastic nods of the head agreed how much of a 'freelancer' Seau was. Woodson seemed supportive (as a player) of Arrington and that when you have someone like that it's special and you keep them. He disagreed with the timing of his comments but pointed out how he is reminded of Greg Lloyd by how much havoc Lavar can wreak.

I think it's interesting that we assume the problems come about as a result of his work ethic as opposed to how he plays the game. IF he plays like Seau (and that's a comparison Art has made) then it makes NO sense to want to fully corral his style. I'm not saying he's flawless, certainly he isn't, but I think it's curious how something becomes repeated over and over as if it indicates a larger truth, when it's QUITE possible that maybe freelancing isn't the issue, so much as the structure of a given system.

If that's not a fit here, then maybe he is best elsewhere.

What I do find interesting is that Moss is a big fan of how he is used here and it is CLEAR he would never be used in NY as he is here and the staff seemed to underestimate him. Maybe in the right situation he can flourish and his advantages maximized in a way they can't be here.

I'm not so sure if it's "work ethic" with Arrington as much as how he plays or how much confusion is in his head on a given play going by the book vs. his instincts or impulses.

What I would like to know, though, is how he was fine in 2004 until he got hurt, but is now such a terrible fit.

If people are mad at his cap number, then be mad at his cap number. This denigration of his ability and the seeming view that he's some kind of 'bust' at his position is a joke.

[bulldog]

Arrington is not a bust. He is an NFL linebacker. He is NOT a linebacker whose career work to his point would give you the idea that he is going to have a 14-15 year term in the NFL like Seau, who has obviously adapted his game to his level of physical skills at 35 vs 25.

We have yet to see if Arrington has what it takes to adapt his game and mature as a player.

This defensive staff have done an outstanding job of bringing out the best qualities of linebackers as diverse as Antonio Pierce, Lemar Marshall and Marcus Washington.

Isn't it strange how Arrington seems to be the one player that hasn't been able to get on the same page as everyone else?

Sean Taylor is a star talent. He hasn't become a problem child.

Again, Marcus Washington is one of the best linebackers in the NFL and he hasn't had a problem with the staff limiting what he does on the field.

I am sure that with his talent as a pass rusher that Washington could be a guy that gets 8-10 sacks a season, but the Skins don't employ him in that role as often as some other teams might.

Mature players don't only look for their own stats and highlight reel material. They look to see how they can best help their team win.

That has been the secret of the Patriots and Eagles as contenders over the past 4-5 years.

There just isn't any room on a playoff contender for a guy that is going to start controversies about his future days before the team plays its most important game of the season.

Sorry, Ghost. The Redskins may win a Super Bowl under Gibbs or a successor like Gregg Williams but LaVar Arrington most likely will be in another uniform by then.

That's reality.

[tundey]

I think a lot of people who think there's a big conspiracy to run players like LaVar out of washington are being simply stupid. What does it profit Snyder to run these folks out of town? If I remember correctly, Snyder paid Coles to get out of town and LaVar has been very well compensated (sure there's the $6.5million dispute but that's been settled). Look at this the way cops investigate crimes: who stands to get the most from this recent LaVar issue? Snyder whose team is finally finally about to get into the playoffs for the first time in a looong long time? Or LaVar who is pissed about his diminished role in the Redskins?

Plus, where does LaVar get off ****ing about his face not being in publicity materials? How about you play a few great games first and ***** later? I don't see Moss and Portis ****ing and they've only carried this team this far. All LaVar has done is ride the bench, ***** to the media and ***** about his ****ing being taken out of context. Next time, LA, just say "No comment" until the season is over. Even Coles was decent enough to do that last season.

[DieselPwr44]

When Arrington was hardly playing in late September and early October this season, he saw Snyder in a hallway and was about to offer some pleasantries. "Don't talk to me," the owner said, according to a person who saw the encounter. "I didn't have anything to do with this.""

So who is taking things personally. Sounds to me like Mr. Snyder has an agenda against Lavar similar to the one he had against Mr. Coles.

Wow.

Funny how some people perceive things. To me, it sounds like Snyder's just keeping the chain of command intact,letting the coaches determine who plays and who doesn't. Would you rather have it the other way around?

I think that's already been tried and I don't believe it worked too good. :2cents:

[rockANDallstar]

WTF?!?! :doh: If this is true, LA needs to get a grip!

Yeah I agree with you on that. This is complete **** he needs to shut his mouth. If he wasn't so selfish, he would be thinking about his team and how well we are doing right now, in position to take a playoff spot. Just shut up LaVar, worry about your position with the team in the offseason. **** like this is distracting and hurts our morale :doh:

[JuiceMan_74]

yall was cheering for him not but 5 years ago, now you've turned on him. thats sad what i dont understand is, why cant people realize that coaches can sometime go overboard. Is it so hard to execpt the fac that maybe the coach crossed the line. As a player you expect coaches to yellow and scream, but as a man a certain level of respect still needs to be there....man i'm on lavar side i wish him well throughout his career

[Burgold]

not hard at all, but it should have been kept inhouse. I think that's what most of us are saying.

[Jumbo]

yall was cheering for him not but 5 years ago, now you've turned on him.

Juice, I'm just going to borrow your comment because similar ones are often thrown in the face of posters willy nilly, back-n-forth.

While not condoning wishy-washy levels of committment, or being quick to flip-flop on POV's as a habit, I want to remind folks that over 50% of people who say "I do", and it's "forever" and "no matter what", and do so in ceremonies that arise out of their most solemn belief systems....change their minds. So it's probably not too abnormal in how you feel about a pro athtlete depending on how things go .

[Redskins Diehard]

Sean Taylor is a star talent. He hasn't become a problem child.

Right. Flip back to the beginning of the season. I am sure there are plenty of threads about Taylor missing off season workouts and getting arrested. Problem child...the guy is looking at 3-5 years once the season is over. You don't even have to go back that far to read about the people here that were po'd at him and Portis for wearing different socks for the first Philly game.

LaVar is the target du jour for this board. It is absolutely amazing to me how so many Redskin players can find themselves in the crosshairs of this "fan" board over the course of one semi successful season. So far we have Antonio Brown, Brunnell, Ramsey, Portis, Taylor and Cooley(for his off field endeavors), and none other than the coach himself for being "too conservative". All of whom have come back to make SIGNIFICANT contributions to winning games.

You people whine and cry about the media bad mouthing the team but in my mind are no better. Maybe you are all wanna be analysts, no there is no maybe about it. You spend all your time reading the articles and watching the analysis that makes your blood boil and then log on here and do the same thing, all the while proclaiming yourselves the biggest fan around.

Hail To The Redskins...ALL of them.

[Jumbo]

Right. Flip back to the beginning of the season. I am sure there are plenty of threads about Taylor missing off season workouts and getting arrested. Problem child...the guy is looking at 3-5 years once the season is over. You don't even have to go back that far to read about the people here that were po'd at him and Portis for wearing different socks for the first Philly game.

LaVar is the target du jour for this board. It is absolutely amazing to me how so many Redskin players can find themselves in the crosshairs of this "fan" board over the course of one semi successful season. So far we have Antonio Brown, Brunnell, Ramsey, Portis, Taylor and Cooley(for his off field endeavors), and none other than the coach himself for being "too conservative". All of whom have come back to make SIGNIFICANT contributions to winning games.

You people whine and cry about the media bad mouthing the team but in my mind are no better. Maybe you are all wanna be analysts, no there is no maybe about it. You spend all your time reading the articles and watching the analysis that makes your blood boil and then log on here and do the same thing, all the while proclaiming yourselves the biggest fan around.

Hail To The Redskins...ALL of them.

So, according to what you wrote, you have got the whole board and all the other 44,000 + posters targeted in your little diatribe? :applause: Way to bond! :laugh:

[Redskins Diehard]

So, according to what you wrote, you have got the whole board and all the other 44,000 + posters targeted in your little diatribe? :applause: Way to bond! :laugh:

If the shoe fits wear it. If not, my "little diatribe" shouldn't bother you at all.

Which Redskin did you want to axe earlier in the year?

[Jumbo]

If the shoe fits wear it. If not, my "little diatribe" shouldn't bother you at all.

Which Redskin did you want to axe earlier in the year?

None. Zero. Not even Holdman or Harris. Not even Lavar, to date. So take your presumptuous shoe and file file it approprtiately. Your diatribe drew my attention because I felt it was stupid enough to say something, not because it touched a nerve. I take umbrage, and sometimes express it, with people that cast broad asperisions on this site and its community, admittedly more so when done by those so newly arrived,

Assuming you are of at least average intelligence, if you had developed some familairity with the board and the posters you wouldn't have made your original comment or had to have asked me that question.

[ImmortalDragon]

yall was cheering for him not but 5 years ago, now you've turned on him. thats sad what i dont understand is, why cant people realize that coaches can sometime go overboard. Is it so hard to execpt the fac that maybe the coach crossed the line. As a player you expect coaches to yellow and scream, but as a man a certain level of respect still needs to be there....man i'm on lavar side i wish him well throughout his career

People believe Gibbs=God, therefore he cannot make mistakes. Gregg Williams is beginning to become God as well.

[ImmortalDragon]

None. Zero. Not even Holdman or Harris. Not even Lavar, to date. So take your presumptuous shoe and file file it approprtiately. Your diatribe drew my attention because I felt it was stupid enough to say something, not because it touched a nerve. I take umbrage, and sometimes express it, with people that cast broad asperisions on this site and its community, admittedly more so when done by those so newly arrived,

Assuming you are of at least average intelligence, if you had developed some familairity with the board and the posters you wouldn't have made your original comment or had to have asked me that question.

It doesn't take long to see all the people complaining. A day after a Skins loss is extremely different than a day after a Skins win. Let me ask you, why do so many fans care what the media thinks? The posters act as if they want all the experts to pick the Skins every week no matter what happens. They act as if they all have a grudge against the Redskins for no apparent reason. I have been here since the end of this past summer and I can recognize a few posters, what Redskins Diehard said, I agree with.

[skinsfanno9]

People believe Gibbs=God, therefore he cannot make mistakes. Gregg Williams is beginning to become God as well.

I tend to believe most of these things have no clear target of blame - and in this case there's clearly enough blame to go around. La Var certainly needs to stand in line for a large heaping of blame for the deteriated relationship with the skins, but so does Redskins management, and probably position coaches. For instance, stating that the LB coach is an A-hole to everyone doesn't make this a good thing, especially if there is clearly some pre-existing tension between La Var and the organization.

Bottom line, this relationship is over at the end of the season. Hopefully this won't be to either La Var's or the Redskins' detriment. But clearly its over. Hopefully we make the playoffs and have success there, and then I wish La Var (assuming he's out of our division - SD would be a great place for him to go) and the skins the absolute best of luck next season. It's a shame that the relationship deteriorated, but such is life.

[Redskins Diehard]

None. Zero. Not even Holdman or Harris. Not even Lavar, to date. So take your presumptuous shoe and file file it approprtiately. Your diatribe drew my attention because I felt it was stupid enough to say something, not because it touched a nerve. I take umbrage, and sometimes express it, with people that cast broad asperisions on this site and its community, admittedly more so when done by those so newly arrived,

Assuming you are of at least average intelligence, if you had developed some familairity with the board and the posters you wouldn't have made your original comment or had to have asked me that question.

Assuming you are of average intelligence and have a broad familiarity with this board I do not see how anyone can say that members of this community have NOT thrown many members of the team and organization "under the bus" virtually at the drop of a hat.

What I have seen in my short stay here is a willingness by many members(and I never said you were one) to cast aspersions on just about every aspect of the organization. Owners, coaches, and players are not immune to this treatment. All on a site that would appear, at least on the surface, to be a Skins fan site.

Hail To The Redskins...ALL of them.

[Jumbo]

It doesn't take long to see all the people complaining. A day after a Skins loss is extremely different than a day after a Skins win. Let me ask you, why do so many fans care what the media thinks? The posters act as if they want all the experts to pick the Skins every week no matter what happens. They act as if they all have a grudge against the Redskins for no apparent reason. I have been here since the end of this past summer and I can recognize a few posters, what Redskins Diehard said, I agree with.

ID, Your first sentence is true to my experience, or I should say my personal perception. Until I settled in and got the lay of the land, I was sometimes thrown by how "much" complaining there was, and still am ocassionally, but that's just by my standards. I realized it's more accurately a reaction to certain posters or "types" of posters and not great big groups of people and most certainly, not "the board".

It's always very tricky to group folks in any manner relating to subjective opinions on complex issues and be precise. Almost everyone does it, but the skill and talent it takes to do so accurately is very hard to come by, and it comes in varying degree if you believe it exists at all.

Your second sentece doesn't ask for much response. It answers itself with minimal reflection. Your question on media is one where you can take a look at the world aorund you. Of course media affects people in what they think and can elicit emotional reactions. Media is simply personal communication writ large, and personal communications often elicit emotional responses.

The challenge, socially speaking, is to determine if your responses are apporopriate in form and degree to the situation, by both your individual standards and as compared to the norm. I always allow that maybe the first place to look for an answer to my "wtf?" is within myself. I consider that maybe I'm off the track in my reaction and genuinely try to see the other side.

I think the biggest thing you may benefit from is taking some time here, relax, and lower any anxiety or frustration over how others think. Then you can get back into it at will . Realize that there are alikely to be trends and main streams of thought (as you'd expect on such a specialized interest site like this) yet there is also a lot of diversity and room for dialogue. The personal style(s) in which you engage people, and the nature of your content, both of which would normally be expected vary depending on the situation at hand, will generally determine your experience.

I hope that addressed what I heard in your post.

[Jumbo]

Assuming you are of average intelligence and have a broad familiarity with this board I do not see how anyone can say that members of this community have NOT thrown many members of the team and organization "under the bus" virtually at the drop of a hat.

What I have seen in my short stay here is a willingness by many members(and I never said you were one) to cast aspersions on just about every aspect of the organization. Owners, coaches, and players are not immune to this treatment. All on a site that would appear, at least on the surface, to be a Skins fan site.

Hail To The Redskins...ALL of them.

I was responding to your castigating generalizations against the community at large as I very specifically noted, and the rashness to sweeping judgments. Now you have changed your tone in this repsonse and became more specifc yourself, which I applaud, even if its a bit disengenuous within our own argument. No big deal. When you use the term "members" or "many members" I can pretty much agree, as those apply to almost any topic on the site, although "under the bus at the drop of a hat" I think only fits a few. With terms like these in play now however, room for reasonable dialogue is created. This is an absolutely outstanding NFL fan site, with a lot of very intelligent and informed people, including some who will disagree with you substantially, as they will not hesitate to do with me :laugh: .

[Tonerman]

Boy, this is the perfect thread for me to express my feelings. I can't wait for Arrington to catch the next bus out of town. The league is full of good linebackers. Arrington is a man, not a god. I truly resent the timing (just prior to the Philly game) of this latest bs from him. I will be truly disappointed if he isn't gone after this year. I am sick of him and all the self-serving controversy he creates.

[GSF]

Boy, this is the perfect thread for me to express my feelings. I can't wait for Arrington to catch the next bus out of town. The league is full of good linebackers. Arrington is a man, not a god. I truly resent the timing (just prior to the Philly game) of this latest bs from him. I will be truly disappointed if he isn't gone after this year. I am sick of him and all the self-serving controversy he creates.

I have a strong feeling Gibbs feels the same exact way.

[Thinking Skins]

Man, we have some wishy washy fans here in Washington!

Its like, all the media needs to do is post a story with a negative tone and out come the preachers and orators to talk about how bad a given situation is.

...Remember how much yal loved L. Coles? Now his name is despised.

...Remember Sean Taylor? Everyone was calling him the antichrist

...Remember Mark Brunell? We COULDN'T have a thread about him this offseason without almost everybody talking about his career is over.

...Shoot, we can go back to earlier in the season when Lavar was first benched. Everybody was starting a thread about how much they loved Lavar.

...Then Lavar went on the John Thompson show (which he's been doing for like 2 years now, a contractual obligation) and everybody got mad at him

...Then he started to play and out came the WE LOVE LAVAR threads!

Its like yal wishy washy fans are just changing your mind with the wind. And all we need is another story in the Post to have everybody hating M. Washington.

Lavar is a Redskin! Whatever happens this offseason is going to happen this offseason. But Lavar has said repeatedly that he loves being a Redskin. I mean, even in the interview he said that he wouldn't play anywhere else. THATS SOME LOYALTY!

And I know that the immediate response is, well if he wants to be a Redskin, then he should Renegotiate or give some money back. How often do you take pay cuts to keep your job? I mean, if Lavar leaves because of money issues. thats strictly business. Let the businessmen handle the business. THE JOB OF A FAN IS TO ENJOY THEIR TEAM!

Are you gonna not cheer when Lavar gets a tackle?

Are you gonna wish that they scored a TD instead?

Do you wish we play a dead body, or Warrick Holdman instead?

Its like yal are little pawns and the local writers are just positioning you to lead the fight so they can get a promotion. And yal are falling for it; thinking its being 'critical' of your team? It just saddens me.