How can Dean and the Dems say Bush lied?

[Winslowalrob]

Yeah, chom ... stop warming the hearts of the terrorists reading the Extremeskins Tailgate ... :paranoid:

... Oh yeah, we know you're out there (I'm talking to YOU Weird Gymnasium, you freaking terrorist ****) ... don't be looking for any aid and comfort around here, because you ain't gonna find it on the Redskins message boards anymore ... :ciao:

Anyhow, as to the topic of this thread. I think the Democrats should be allowed to say "Bush lied, people died" because it rhymes. It may not be true, but it's pretty close to true, and it has to be the best rhyming political slogan since "I Like Ike." I mean seriously, how can you force the Democrats to pass up an opportunity like this? "Bush lied, people died." It rolls right off the tongue ... in an age of boring, non-rhyming political rhetoric, we truly can not afford to let this one fall by the wayside. :2cents:

Yeah, we have to keep it. Slogans like that come only about once every 50 years!

[Winslowalrob]

I really do hate those who try and say that any Islamic leader (outside of Turkey) is secular

Secularism isn't a part of our religion at all, you either IS, or you ISN'T

Just because a Muslim country doesn't force every woman to viel up and doesn't use zakat as the tax code, doe NOT mean its secular by any means at all

If Saddam was secular, George Bush is downright European in the way he handles religion

European? Explain...

[Joe Sick]

Yeah, chom ... stop warming the hearts of the terrorists reading the Extremeskins Tailgate ... :paranoid:

Exactly. A terrorist needs no more motivation than what they already have. The exact same people who say that people who disagree with Bush are traitors are the same ones who laugh about misguided attempts to gain 72 virgins.

A demented view of Islam or CNN: which is the REAL cause for their actions?

On the flip side, I fail to see how criticizing the politicians' lack of war planning affects a GI in the field who is just trying to do some good on the mission they were given and stay alive in the process.

The real reason seems closer to being that dissent is being stifled just for political gain, with soldiers being used to facilitate the muzzling of honest debate.

:2cents:

[Joe Sick]

European? Explain...

You know, European, like Vatican City. :laugh:

[chomerics]

If Saddam was secular, George Bush is downright European in the way he handles religion

When compared to every other state in the ME, Saddam was bt far the most secular, not even close.

On the flip side, if you compare Bush with any other president in the past 30 years, it looks like Iran compared to Europe.

[chomerics]

That is a transcript in which Clinton gave to explain his military strikes in Iraq in 1998. He used the term "weapons of mass destruction" so many times in that speech I lost count. Now granted clinton in his presidential speech actually said the full phrase and not the acronym. Are you going to tell me that for the sake of your slanted political rhetoric that the media wasnt using the acronym WMD at that time. WMD was a prolific acronym long before Bush took office, even to us "commoners".

And yet you have not refuted Larry's post one bit. How many Americans would have know what a WMD was in 98? How many in 03'? I think you will find your answer there.

Do you also think Senator Chuck Hagel is a terrorist lover too?

Nebraska Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel is angry. He's upset about the more than 1,700 U.S. soldiers killed and nearly 13,000 wounded in Iraq. He's also aggravated by the continued string of sunny assessments from the Bush administration, such as Vice President Dick Cheney's recent remark that the insurgency is in its "last throes." "Things aren't getting better; they're getting worse. The White House is completely disconnected from reality," Hagel tells U.S. News. "It's like they're just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we're losing in Iraq."

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050627/27bush.htm

[Mad Mike]

No Mike, it is called realism, it's what is going on, it is called REALITY!!!! It is called understanding an ignorant and compltely moronic ideological viewpoint. It is knowing that you can not occupy a country, and have them follow by your laws simply because you think your way of life is better. It is knowing the religious tension and the history surrounding the factions in Iraq. It is knowing that they will NOT shower you with roses and let you do it!!!!

Well you know what Mike, those weren't roses they were throwing at us those were bombs. Those were human suicide bombers who hate us so freakin much, they will kill themselves just so they can kill more of us then them. You were 100% wrong then, and you are yet again 100% wrong!!! Whay am I not suprised :shot:

Yes Mike, I am not a defeatist coward, but smart enough to face up to reality. I have the BALLS to say exactly what is going on, and what the probable outcome is. It was people like myself, the people who actually KNOW what others are likely to do, that were thrown out of government. It was people who actually knew what they were talking about, that were fired or forced to resign. People who actually said that Iraq will turn into EXACTLY what it is now, were fired. . .

Now we are surrounded by a bunch of people who don't know their ass from their elbow. We have just managed to eliminate everyone who actually could have helped, people like Colin Powell, General Scowcroft, General Sinsheki, leaders of this country. We have also surrounded ourselves by a bunch of people who just don't get "it". We end up losing two towers, and we lose a freaking city because they have no fricken' clue as how to run a country. They are to busy covering up their other eff'ups, and they're so freakin clueless, they don't even have the friging smarts to make a vacation short when a horrible disastor is barreling down our throat.

Yes, you can call me a coward all you want, but you know what. . . It is not me who is the coward. It is you. You are the coward because you can not face the facts. You can not face the situation. You are smart enough to understand, yet you will do anything you can not to face reality. Somebody who can not even face up to himself and admit what is staring him directly in the face. . . That is a coward.

I post your quote to show what I did not read. Reading your garbage is just a waste of time. I did catch something about reality though, a concept you know nothing about.

Reality is that Saddam was a freakink sycopathic terrrorist supporter.

Reality is that he is no longer in power.

Reality is we are killing FAR more terrorists than they are killing us.

Reality is that WE have been learning for the past two years as well. We are getting better at finding them and killing them and we are getting better at developing Iraqi forces to kill them for us.

Reality is the majority of Iraqis are more optomistic than you. A democrat who was just there came out and tried to tell you that. Your (meaning the collective response of the left on this board) was to attack him as a traitor to his party because to you the party comes first. Reality is you cant say squat about his message because he is telling the truth.

Reality is the future has not been written and history is full of dificult tasks made posible with courage and determination.

Reality is you are a defeatist coward and you are saying just what the terrorists want to hear.

Security men are especially asked to cover up for the Mujahideen and to assist them as much as possible against the occupying enemy; and to spread rumours, fear and discouragement among the members of the enemy forces.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html

[heyholetsgogrant]

Madmike and the treason calling gang are blowing over the issue here, they said they knew where the weapons were, and it did not happen....sorry mike but your in the minority, it wasnt just a mistake telling the world about WMD...the majority of American people feel it was a mistake...call me treason, coward, wuss whatever I dont care....conservatives feel they are the only ones that know what to do, but hey they can call a "war on terror," when thats no different than the war on drugs, its called a "Fruitful" situation....you kill one terrorist, someone else takes his place...how do you know speaking out the agianst the war will incite terrorism?, did you talk to a terrorist himself and ask? Did you talk to Osma Bin Ladin who attacked Amercia on 9/11?....if you are gonna call this so call war in terror, you are going to have to attack at TERRORIST support nations, which includes Saudi Arabia and Iran...oh yeah BTW Iran is thinking of building another reactor... Did you talk to Bush and his gang when the FBI knew the 9/11 high jackers were in the country?

BTW, if democrats are committing treason, then why dont you call your sentator up and demand that the democrats be charged with treason?...if someone committing treason, then why not bring charges?

-Grant

[Larry]

I post your quote to show what I did not read.

I didn't read your post, but I figured everybody else on this board should read it again, because it's worthless.

Now let me spend a dozen paragraphs insulting something I didn't read . . .

[autographcollector]

Hey Chom, just look at the facts....factcheck.org

[Burgold]

How about the mobile labs that they were daily tracking right until the war started when mysteriously they disappeared and couldn't find them? Would have provided circumstantial evidence to the WMD's. The fact that they knew the exact purpose of these trucks, where they were, and what they had in them... except after they got to Iraq. Seems odd to me.

I personally believe that the phrasing choices are amongst the worst lies. The DOD lists about 16,000 wounded. However, look very carefully at the definition of wounded because it is very narrow. In one article, I read they stated that only 10,000 or so were wounded to such a degree that they could not report to duty the next day. Well, while serving in Walter Reed, I've seen them roll dozens of young men down to roll call from their hospital beds. Guess what, these guys don't count as being wounded without being able to report within twenty four hours. Is it technically true, yes. Is it designed to deceive the American public... absolutely. Also, do a search and you'll find that the "Approximate number of medical evacuations of U.S. military personnel performed since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom: 55,000" to Germany and Andrews for care. Does that mean they were all sick? Does that mean the numbers have been artificially lowered by only including as injured those who are injured in a very specific way? These are big lies.

http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc.cfm?A=fs&B=109&C=1&D=86

[Kilmer17]

We found lots of those labs. They were scrubbed clean and bleached. And the story given by the left was that they were weather balloon stations. Even though not a single balloon was ever found. But we digress........

[Art Monk Fan]

The partisan rhetoric get us no where and is becoming more than tedious. The administration did say they knew where the WMD were, because we were tracking them via satellite. When we got on the ground and checked those sites, we found nothing. There are only two explanations for this:

1. Hussein moved, hid, gave away or destroyed the WMD before we could get to it.

2. There were no WMD, but Hussein purposely put on a show that he knew we'd see and interpret as him still having WMD.

Whichever of these is the truth, there is no way, short of boots on the ground that our intell folks could have figured it out. Bush made his decisions based on the intell he had. There were objections within the intell community to certain specific pieces of intell, but the opinion of the overwhelming majority of American, European and Russian intell agencies all agreed that Hussein had WMD and was pursuing nuclear weapons.

More importantly, the post-war knowledge we have gained tells us that Hussein was still pursuing both WMD and nuclear weapons. He was attempting to get out of the sanctions regime against him through compliance with the UN Resolutions, while saving face in the Arab world by leaving it ambiguous whether he had WMD or not. If he were serious about giving up WMD and rejoining the community of nations, he had the South African model to follow. He didn't, because he wanted to claim he had disarmed, have inspectors fail to prove he hadn't, retain the possibility in the minds of the world that he still had arms, and then quickly rearm, gaining nuclear weapons once the sanctions regime had been lifted.

Hussein had not ceased to be a threat; he had developed a long-term strategy to outsmart the UN. Pretending anything different is revisionist history and useless conspiracy theory.

[SkinsHokieFan]

The partisan rhetoric get us no where and is becoming more than tedious. The administration did say they knew where the WMD were, because we were tracking them via satellite. When we got on the ground and checked those sites, we found nothing. There are only two explanations for this:

1. Hussein moved, hid, gave away or destroyed the WMD before we could get to it.

2. There were no WMD, but Hussein purposely put on a show that he knew we'd see and interpret as him still having WMD.

Whichever of these is the truth, there is no way, short of boots on the ground that our intell folks could have figured it out. Bush made his decisions based on the intell he had. There were objections within the intell community to certain specific pieces of intell, but the opinion of the overwhelming majority of American, European and Russian intell agencies all agreed that Hussein had WMD and was pursuing nuclear weapons.

More importantly, the post-war knowledge we have gained tells us that Hussein was still pursuing both WMD and nuclear weapons. He was attempting to get out of the sanctions regime against him through compliance with the UN Resolutions, while saving face in the Arab world by leaving it ambiguous whether he had WMD or not. If he were serious about giving up WMD and rejoining the community of nations, he had the South African model to follow. He didn't, because he wanted to claim he had disarmed, have inspectors fail to prove he hadn't, retain the possibility in the minds of the world that he still had arms, and then quickly rearm, gaining nuclear weapons once the sanctions regime had been lifted.

Hussein had not ceased to be a threat; he had developed a long-term strategy to outsmart the UN. Pretending anything different is revisionist history and useless conspiracy theory.

One of the best posts on this

I think the key thing is trying to figure out WHAT was going on with the WMD.

Was it a show or were they moved? I honestly think it was 98 percent a show, but he had to have had SOMETHING

I am still completely stunned nothing, absolutley nothing, was found

[tlk2rn]

Maybe here are some things everyone should check out. It lets us know that Bush isn't the only one to make mistakes.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040624-112921-3401r.htm

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec98/clinton_12-16.html

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/02/07/clinton.iraq/

He (Bill Clinton) said Bush is "doing the right thing now" by gathering international support, but said he doesn't believe another U.N. resolution is needed to go to war with Iraq.

That was then; This is now.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-11-16-iraq-clinton_x.htm

Former President Clinton told Arab students Wednesday the United States made a "big mistake" when it invaded Iraq

Not all Democrats think this way, but man talk about wishy washy, topsy turby.

[Art Monk Fan]

One of the best posts on this

Thanks.

I think the key thing is trying to figure out WHAT was going on with the WMD.

Was it a show or were they moved? I honestly think it was 98 percent a show, but he had to have had SOMETHING

I am still completely stunned nothing, absolutley nothing, was found

I agree 100%. It continues to amaze me that this is not the #1 topic of concern to the American people.

Colin Powell came out recently to defend his presentatino to the UN. He said that sites where we knew WMD had been produced in the past show up on satelite imagry with activity. We have satelite images of UN inspectors on the way to the site, then images of trucks leaving the back of the sites right before the inspectors arrive, then the inspectors report finding nothing there. If you were interpreting this intell, what would you think?

Did Hussein secretly destroy the stock piles the UN confirmed he had prior to the war? Did he give the WMD to another country? Is it buried in the desert somewhere?

There are weapons the UN actually saw and catalogued that have never been accounted for -- where the hell did they go? And why is no one else asking this question?

[SkinsOrlando]

The partisan rhetoric get us no where and is becoming more than tedious. The administration did say they knew where the WMD were, because we were tracking them via satellite. When we got on the ground and checked those sites, we found nothing. There are only two explanations for this:

1. Hussein moved, hid, gave away or destroyed the WMD before we could get to it.

2. There were no WMD, but Hussein purposely put on a show that he knew we'd see and interpret as him still having WMD.

Whichever of these is the truth, there is no way, short of boots on the ground that our intell folks could have figured it out. Bush made his decisions based on the intell he had. There were objections within the intell community to certain specific pieces of intell, but the opinion of the overwhelming majority of American, European and Russian intell agencies all agreed that Hussein had WMD and was pursuing nuclear weapons.

More importantly, the post-war knowledge we have gained tells us that Hussein was still pursuing both WMD and nuclear weapons. He was attempting to get out of the sanctions regime against him through compliance with the UN Resolutions, while saving face in the Arab world by leaving it ambiguous whether he had WMD or not. If he were serious about giving up WMD and rejoining the community of nations, he had the South African model to follow. He didn't, because he wanted to claim he had disarmed, have inspectors fail to prove he hadn't, retain the possibility in the minds of the world that he still had arms, and then quickly rearm, gaining nuclear weapons once the sanctions regime had been lifted.

Hussein had not ceased to be a threat; he had developed a long-term strategy to outsmart the UN. Pretending anything different is revisionist history and useless conspiracy theory.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Couldn't have said it better myself

[Burgold]

How about part b... how can we consistently say that we've had only 16,000 wounded while we have had over 55,000 medical evacuations from Iraq to Germany? Were 39,000 people evacuated for no reason or is there a lie there or at least really deceptive use of operational definitions.

[Cskin]

Stick to the facts guys... the whole world THOUGHT he has WMDs.... and after 9-11 we couldn't have a tyrant, who used them on his own people and was now skirting UN attempts to inspect and determine whether he still had them, thumbing his nose at the International community and possibly giving said weapons to people hellbent on bringing them to US shores.

Chom... you failed to comment on the fact that some agencies DID raise concerns about the validity of some of the intelligence.... AND THAT TOO was in the National Estimate Report. Some Dems say it was in the fine print... or the last few pages... when the FACTS are it was highlighted on pages 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 of the report that some entities had problems with solme of the intelligence.

Face it... the Dems are simplying lying about this because they believe it's the only way to regain control of the Congress and the White HOuse.... the two branches of govt. they believe they should control because of their birth right as Democrats.

You Left leaners also fail to comment on why an Al-Qaeda top leader was allowed to seek medical attenion in Iraq after being injured in Ashcanistan? Just ignoring this FACT aren't we? If Hussein had no connection with Al-Qaeda, why is Al-Qaeda seeking refuge and medical attenion from his country instead of in IRan... a known terrorist sympathizer.

You left leaners continue to ignore your own Democratic leaders who spouted about the dangers of Hussein left unfettered with WMDs. Are we to believe that it's ok for THEM to have been wrong but no ok for the INTELLIGENCE community and the President's administration to be wrong.

It's a simple case of what's good for the goose not being good for the gander, with the common thread being that the Dems will stop at nothing to regain control of the Legislative and Executive Branch.

Finally...check the pole numbers... each time Dean/Kerry/Pelosi/Murtha open up their mouths and scream surrender and wave their white (probably a shade of pink) flags... the Americans become more resolute in their support of the President, our troops, and our responsiblity to WIN THE WAR in IRaq.

[Winslowalrob]

Chom... you failed to comment on the fact that some agencies DID raise concerns about the validity of some of the intelligence.... AND THAT TOO was in the National Estimate Report. Some Dems say it was in the fine print... or the last few pages... when the FACTS are it was highlighted on pages 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 of the report that some entities had problems with solme of the intelligence.

Face it... the Dems are simplying lying about this because they believe it's the only way to regain control of the Congress and the White HOuse.... the two branches of govt. they believe they should control because of their birth right as Democrats.

You Left leaners also fail to comment on why an Al-Qaeda top leader was allowed to seek medical attenion in Iraq after being injured in Ashcanistan? Just ignoring this FACT aren't we? If Hussein had no connection with Al-Qaeda, why is Al-Qaeda seeking refuge and medical attenion from his country instead of in IRan... a known terrorist sympathizer.

Finally...check the pole numbers... each time Dean/Kerry/Pelosi/Murtha open up their mouths and scream surrender and wave their white (probably a shade of pink) flags... the Americans become more resolute in their support of the President, our troops, and our responsiblity to WIN THE WAR in IRaq.

Dude, we had Al-Queda members in THIS COUNTRY operating here. After the embassy bombings, we knew that they were bad guys, its not like we ignored them. Maybe Saddam did NOT KNOW that the "top-Al Queda" dude was in his country. Otherwise, lets invade the White House for harboring 9/11 bombers. Gotta keep that logic consistent buddy, did Saddam personally hand greet every immigrant? Did he go on runs with doctors to ease the sufferings of his people? Corellation versus causality....

And using polls as evidence? Sigh....

I know you said more than this, but I have not read the reports so I could not comment on the lying. Out of my league.

[Predicto]

Blah Blah Blah Reality is you are a defeatist coward Blah blah blah

Reality is, you are a namecaller who reduces the quality of discourse on this board. Rather than address the points other people make, or even read them, you just repeat yourself and then insult the other person.

And use a lot of emoticons too, cause that proves you are right!

[twa]

How about part b... how can we consistently say that we've had only 16,000 wounded while we have had over 55,000 medical evacuations from Iraq to Germany? Were 39,000 people evacuated for no reason or is there a lie there or at least really deceptive use of operational definitions.

A simple explanation would be those are medical evacs which include civilians and other countries personel,contractors and even UN

However the wording and source is not clear

"Approximate number of medical evacuations of U.S. military personnel performed since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom: 55,000" to Germany and Andrews for care. Does that mean they were all sick?

[Cskin]

Dude, we had Al-Queda members in THIS COUNTRY operating here. After the embassy bombings, we knew that they were bad guys, its not like we ignored them. Maybe Saddam did NOT KNOW that the "top-Al Queda" dude was in his country. Otherwise, lets invade the White House for harboring 9/11 bombers. Gotta keep that logic consistent buddy, did Saddam personally hand greet every immigrant? Did he go on runs with doctors to ease the sufferings of his people? Corellation versus causality....

Wow... I read that and found myself shaking my head in disbelief and confusion. Are we to believe that Hussein DID NOT know a top Al-Qaeda figure was in his country seeking medical attention? He already had a group of terrorists creating Ricin in Northern Iraq... are we now to believe he didn't believe that was happening either?

As for Al-Qaeda operating here in the US.... of course they were... they were taking advantage of our open borders and free society. Do you think Hussein, one of the more paranoid and opposition possessed tyrants in the world, would simply not know AL-Qaeda was operating in his country? :doh:

In the end...it's the Dems playing a game of revisionist history. Now they believe they were misled when then they had access to Intelligence reports in which the majority said Hussein was a threat. Somehow, at least the Dems hope we're dumb enough, we're supposed to believe that the threat assesments and speeches from Dems in the 90s and leading up to the invasion were spot on.... but three years later were the result of being misled by the Bush Administration. I mean... this couldn't be more transparent politicking and misleading actions by the Dems.

[Winslowalrob]

Wow... I read that and found myself shaking my head in disbelief and confusion. Are we to believe that Hussein DID NOT know a top Al-Qaeda figure was in his country seeking medical attention? He already had a group of terrorists creating Ricin in Northern Iraq... are we now to believe he didn't believe that was happening either?

As for Al-Qaeda operating here in the US.... of course they were... they were taking advantage of our open borders and free society. Do you think Hussein, one of the more paranoid and opposition possessed tyrants in the world, would simply not know AL-Qaeda was operating in his country? :doh:

Sorry if I confused you, but can you prove the Saddam knew? Do you have his secret journal entries? His security reports? Did you write down telepathic conversations? Once again, corellation versus causality, because the same argument can be levelled at Bush without evidence. I want proof of Saddam's knowledge. And there are more terrorist groups than Al-Queda, and they all do not get along, tell me more about the Ricin people. Did they answer to Al-Qudea? Where they terrorists or military personnell? Give us some documents or something dude. Go and make me look dumb (not too hard obviously).

[chomerics]

Originally Posted by chomerics

No Mike, it is called realism, it's what is going on, it is called REALITY!!!! It is called understanding an ignorant and compltely moronic ideological viewpoint. It is knowing that you can not occupy a country, and have them follow by your laws simply because you think your way of life is better. It is knowing the religious tension and the history surrounding the factions in Iraq. It is knowing that they will NOT shower you with roses and let you do it!!!!

Well you know what Mike, those weren't roses they were throwing at us those were bombs. Those were human suicide bombers who hate us so freakin much, they will kill themselves just so they can kill more of us then them. You were 100% wrong then, and you are yet again 100% wrong!!! Whay am I not suprised

Yes Mike, I am not a defeatist coward, but smart enough to face up to reality. I have the BALLS to say exactly what is going on, and what the probable outcome is. It was people like myself, the people who actually KNOW what others are likely to do, that were thrown out of government. It was people who actually knew what they were talking about, that were fired or forced to resign. People who actually said that Iraq will turn into EXACTLY what it is now, were fired. . .

Now we are surrounded by a bunch of people who don't know their ass from their elbow. We have just managed to eliminate everyone who actually could have helped, people like Colin Powell, General Scowcroft, General Sinsheki, leaders of this country. We have also surrounded ourselves by a bunch of people who just don't get "it". We end up losing two towers, and we lose a freaking city because they have no fricken' clue as how to run a country. They are to busy covering up their other eff'ups, and they're so freakin clueless, they don't even have the friging smarts to make a vacation short when a horrible disastor is barreling down our throat.

Yes, you can call me a coward all you want, but you know what. . . It is not me who is the coward. It is you. You are the coward because you can not face the facts. You can not face the situation. You are smart enough to understand, yet you will do anything you can not to face reality. Somebody who can not even face up to himself and admit what is staring him directly in the face. . . That is a coward.

I post your quote to show what I did not read. Reading your garbage is just a waste of time. I did catch something about reality though, a concept you know nothing about.

Well thanks for proving my point Mike. You see, if you HAD read my post, you would understand that you just basically admitted to NOT facing reality and being a coward :doh: :laugh: :notworthy: :notworthy: :laugh: :rotflmao: :doh:

By not reading what I had to say, you proved the entire point of my post and you exposed yourself yet once again. My god Mike, when are you going to stop walking into walls like that? When are you going to stop walking into those windmill rights? It isn't even fun anymore because it requires no thought, it's like shooting fish into a barrel. . . but then again you know that seeing how you are always on the other end of the windmill rights :doh:

You said in another thread, it is childish to post the "owned" pictures. . . well stop making it so easy for anyone with half a brain to "own" you and I will stop posting the fact that you were

Yet again :doh: