I found this to be an interesting rumor

[GSF]

If you take a look at New England's draft from 2004 and 2005, the rate of success is almost identical to that of the Skins.

New England's picks in the fifth and seventh rounds in '05 are no longer with the team, and their fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth picks from '04 are also not on the roster. They did do much better in '03, with almost all of those picks still on the team. It just goes to show that picks past the fourth round are a real crapshoot, and often don't make the team.

[mcarey032]

I would say that Ron Wolf would be great. I don't know if Danny boy would allow it. However, I would say since Gobbs came back, he really hasn't made too many interference decisions. So I would say that it is Gibbs decision to make.

[Riggo-toni]

Wolf hasn't totally been away from the game, he just hasn't been involved in a full-time way. He's been consulting with the Cowboys front office the last couple of years for the draft and at training camp.

And again, before that he did much the same for the Browns.

Wolf would be a terrific guy to bring in to help with the draft.

[GSF]

It is way too early to tell if the 2005 draft was a good one for several reasons.

- Carlos Rogers seems to have talent though he's still unable to produce more then Harris, and Harris wasn't good enough to be a starter last year. If Carlos improves and is more reliable in coverage then Smoot was in the next 2 years then it was a good move. If he doesn't, and make no mistake he has NOT at this time, then the loss of Smoot and use of a 1st round to replace him becomes a very costly mistake.

- Jason Campbell has not played a down yet. He could be brilliant and provide this team with something it hasn't had in a long time - a long term solution at QB. Or he could turn out to be a bust that costs us a 1st and 2nd round pick.

- The other 4 picks do not seem ready to even provide quality depth at this point. McCune and Broughton seem to have the best chance of turning into good backups but that remains to be seen. The other two don't look so hot.

As of right now the draft has not improved this team over what we had last year. It will all depend on how these players turn out, this draft could very well turn out to be great but it could also be a failure.

Most drafts don't improve the team the first year. Especially if you have coaches like Gibbs and Williams that don't like to play rookies. If you think the draft could turn out to be great, why do you think we need Wolf? Why not give Joe Gibbs the chance and let this thing play out. The last thing this team needs right now is more change. We've finally gotten away from that.

[Biscuit]

No, you're not on a Pats board, but you're certainly on a board of a team with a similar setup, though, our personnel guys and coaches haven't worked together where New England's only was able to get a job based on having worked together previously, making our situation a little more impressive for how well everything has fit together and worked since Gibbs came in.

There's no denying the sound moves made since Gibbs and Williams came in and lended stability to the personnel process allowing our people to identify players to fit their systems. This will continue to improve the longer it is maintained. There's ZERO reason to consider any alterations.

In Free Agency/trades, I agree. The draft is another story. You pick up special teams aces in UFA, not in the middle rounds... :laugh:

[Gallntfox]

With Ron Wolf residing in Annapolis.........the Skins seem like a logical choice.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The great success of this structure working together should not be messed with. We are acquiring good players who fit the needs of the systems and have only begun to really build within this system structure. It would be a horrible move to bring another personnel mind in over the top given how well this group has proven to work and function together.

Huh? The group that brought you Michael Barrow, no defensive line, two fullbacks, and Mark Brunell's soul-crushing contract.

Gibbs has had some hits. But it's not just getting good players like Brunell and Portis. It is how you get them. And he was conned on both those deals.

[Biscuit]

Huh? The group that brought you Michael Barrow' date=' no defensive line, two fullbacks, and Mark Brunell's soul-crushing contract.

Gibbs has had some hits. But it's not just getting good players like Brunell and Portis. It is how you get them. And he was conned on both those deals.[/quote']

Portis and Barrow were pre Gibbs...at least Portis was.

I agree that the 2005 draft is a travesty in optimizing middle and late round draft choices. Drafting for special teams because there were no apprent needs at other positions is what ended the Dallas dynasty...

[Destino]

Most drafts don't improve the team the first year. Especially if you have coaches like Gibbs and Williams that don't like to play rookies. If you think the draft could turn out to be great, why do you think we need Wolf? Why not give Joe Gibbs the chance and let this thing play out. The last thing this team needs right now is more change. We've finally gotten away from that.

Because I still don't see the later round draft picks improving, I think the cap situation could be handled better, I don't like the willingness to trade so many picks, and while this group has had good moves....they also decided to let the trio of bears start this year and they've all failed to live up to expectations.

[Drex]

Portis and Barrow were pre Gibbs...at least Portis was.

I agree that the 2005 draft is a travesty in optimizing middle and late round draft choices. Drafting for special teams because there were no apprent needs at other positions is what ended the Dallas dynasty...

This is what makes last season's draft perplexing, IMO. Unlike the Dallas dynasty, last season, we were a 6-10 football team. At 6-10, you are not in a position to just focus your draft efforts on attaining special teams depth: you need players who can come in a make an impact in an attempt to improve NEXT YEAR's football team.

Of our draft selections, only Rogers is making some level of impact and at this point, he has been unable to dislodge Walt Harris from his starting CB position.

[illone]

I've said it before....

We screwed the pooch in 2005 by passing on Chris Canty. No clue why this team refuses to draft Dline the past few years. The last time we drafted a dlinemen was 2001 and it was in the 6th round(Mario Monds).

Where is that guy now?

Hopefully we do something in FA this upcoming off-season. Griffin and Salave'a appear to be keepers, but adding a pure rush end can't hurt. Daniels isn't the answer.

[MCnDaHouse]

I would love to see Wolf come here if Coach Gibbs approves of it. Even if it was a consultant. Looking at that list it's obvious Ron Wolf has an eye for talent that will work in the NFL.

MC

[TheLongshot]

Because I still don't see the later round draft picks improving, I think the cap situation could be handled better, I don't like the willingness to trade so many picks, and while this group has had good moves....they also decided to let the trio of bears start this year and they've all failed to live up to expectations.

Methinks your expectation of some of them (Walt Harris in particular) was too high to begin with.

Only Daniels was brought in here to be a starter. Harris was coming off of a serious knee injury, and has so far been a pretty nice find. Thinking that he was going to be an all-pro is having too much expectations on him. Holdman was brought in to bring some veteran depth to the LB corp, not to start. Lavar was behind on his rehab and couldn't start the season, so they started him. Unfortunatly, it hasn't worked out.

Of our draft selections, only Rogers is making some level of impact and at this point, he has been unable to dislodge Walt Harris from his starting CB position.

I thought it was pretty obvious, but Williams generally doesn't like to start rookies if he doesn't have to. Sean Taylor only cracked the starting lineup when Lott and Bowen went down with injuries. It didn't help that Rogers was hurt in training camp. In the meantime, until last week, Harris was pretty solid in coverage.

Also, once you get past the third round, you usually are getting projects of one type or another. The two picks currently on the roster for this year are doing what they should be doing: working on special teams. You also try to fill gaps before they appear. For example, I expect Betts will leave in FA next year. That will be fine, tho, since we have Rock and Nemo backing up Portis. This is what is important in today's NFL, not finding guys to plug holes now. That's what FA is for.

Jason

[Destino]

Methinks your expectation of some of them (Walt Harris in particular) was too high to begin with.

Only Daniels was brought in here to be a starter. Harris was coming off of a serious knee injury, and has so far been a pretty nice find. Thinking that he was going to be an all-pro is having too much expectations on him. Holdman was brought in to bring some veteran depth to the LB corp, not to start. Lavar was behind on his rehab and couldn't start the season, so they started him. Unfortunatly, it hasn't worked out.

I thought it was pretty obvious, but Williams generally doesn't like to start rookies if he doesn't have to. Sean Taylor only cracked the starting lineup when Lott and Bowen went down with injuries. It didn't help that Rogers was hurt in training camp. In the meantime, until last week, Harris was pretty solid in coverage.

If all the above is true then you are saying the "great success" of this group knowingly went into the season with a serious downgrade at a starting crucial defensive position (CB). After all Williams doesn't start rookies and Harris was only brought in for depth....so then why wasn't the defense upgraded at all? We downgraded at CB, LB, and looking at the result DL as well. That isn't brilliant FO work.

Also, once you get past the third round, you usually are getting projects of one type or another. The two picks currently on the roster for this year are doing what they should be doing: working on special teams. You also try to fill gaps before they appear. For example, I expect Betts will leave in FA next year. That will be fine, tho, since we have Rock and Nemo backing up Portis. This is what is important in today's NFL, not finding guys to plug holes now. That's what FA is for.

Jason

What team has been able to fill all their holes via FA and found continued long lasting success in the modern NFL? Looks to me that the top teams seem to draft very well and survive limited injury and turnover because most of the time they have capable cheap replacements on the bench. FA is too expensive and other then adding a some help here and there it mostly just strangles a ball club and limits their options in the future.

I just don't see front office magic at work here. Portis' contract is too big for his production...he is a good player but he is the second highest paid back in the league. Is he that good? We got Moss but took a massive hit with Coles. Again good talent move but we paid a heavy price. We trade draft picks and pay a lot of money, but then we let go of two players on the D that had produced and replace them with less capable players while making no upgrades at other spots.

This FO is better then in years past, but I don't see greatness here yet.

[TahoeSkin]

Again, I can't really see the point. Wolf has been out of the league for a spell. It would take him a LOT of time to come up to speed with NFL free agents and college players. His input would be limited for some time as he comes up with reports generated by others as he will not be seeing many of these guys personally. He's accustomed to a leadership position in personnel and, frankly, I prefer the way Gibbs is structuring this team with character guys who are hungry to win and serious about it when they lose.

I very much trust Gibbs' instincts when it comes to identifying the type of player he wants on his team. I have no reason to trust Wolf who, in my view, pretty much made his career on hitting the lotto with Favre as had he missed, no one would really think all that much of him.

ok . . . so much for bringing in an extra set of eyes . . . even if they are a bit sharper than the ones we now have . . .

[illone]

This FO is better then in years past, but I don't see greatness here yet.

I agree. These past few drafts have been modest at best.

Your take on FA seems a bit off mainly because we still fielded a decent team this year AFTER incurring Coles huge cap hit. Imagine what we could have done with that loot had we not cut Coles?

If I remember correctly it ended up being about $8-9 mil in total cap? Could be wrong there but we could have added John Abrahams for that, and still had money left over. I'm definitely curious to see what we'll do this coming off-season. Our hands won't be as tied up as they were last season, and even though we won't have a 1st rounder, we'll have money to sign some help on the d-line (I think this next off-season we finally will).

Keep in mind Gibbs has been pretty stellar in free agency since his return.

I'm anxious to see what he does with a blank checkbook this next off-season.

[GSF]

If all the above is true then you are saying the "great success" of this group knowingly went into the season with a serious downgrade at a starting crucial defensive position (CB). After all Williams doesn't start rookies and Harris was only brought in for depth....so then why wasn't the defense upgraded at all? We downgraded at CB, LB, and looking at the result DL as well. That isn't brilliant FO work.

What team has been able to fill all their holes via FA and found continued long lasting success in the modern NFL? Looks to me that the top teams seem to draft very well and survive limited injury and turnover because most of the time they have capable cheap replacements on the bench. FA is too expensive and other then adding a some help here and there it mostly just strangles a ball club and limits their options in the future.

I just don't see front office magic at work here. Portis' contract is too big for his production...he is a good player but he is the second highest paid back in the league. Is he that good? We got Moss but took a massive hit with Coles. Again good talent move but we paid a heavy price. We trade draft picks and pay a lot of money, but then we let go of two players on the D that had produced and replace them with less capable players while making no upgrades at other spots.

This FO is better then in years past, but I don't see greatness here yet.

Destino,

You are going around in circles, and really seem to miss the big picture here. No GM is going to take a team with as many holes as the Skins had and fix everything in 1 or 2 seasons. Smoot and Pierce wanted contracts that were out of proportion with what their teamates made. Smoot got the big contract with the Vikings and has since been getting torched regularly, just like Bailey did last year. As much as everyone likes to pile on Harris, he is having a better season than Smoot is. There really were no other options with Coles since he did not want to be on the team. Had he not been busted, maybe Gibbs would have convinced him to stay, but we all saw how unproductive he was last season. Really, how could have Gibbs handles the thing with Coles any better? At least we got a great player who wants to be here out of the deal. And yes, Portis is worth his contract. The only more complete back in the league is LT. There are no other backs running harder, blocking, and catching the ball as well as Portis and LT. Alexander has a lot more TDs, but give Gibbs some time to really get his offense going and Portis will score plenty.

When a team is in as much trouble as the Skins were, you have to prioritize b/c like Jason and I have been saying, you're not going to fix everything in 1 season. Gibbs has secured his QBs for the present and the future, he has his franchise back and big play WR, and short of some depth the oline is set as well. We had one of the best defenses in the league last year, so adding to the dline wasn't as high on the list, though I agree with my man Illone that drafting Canty would have been nice. I still believe that with Lavar back, if Griffin and Taylor can get healthy this defense will be just as good as last year's. To me, Marshall has played MLB at a very similar level as Pierce did last year. What has really hurt this defense was not having Lavar or Marshall at WLB early in the season, and then injuries to key players like Griffin and Taylor along the way.

All of the arguements you and so many others have made about needing a GM are wholely irrellevant b/c it's not going to happen. I wouldn't mind or be surprised by Gibbs hiring Wolfe as a consultant, but as long as Gibbs is the President of the team he is THE man in Washington. That's just the way it is. Gibbs has brought us 3 rings. How many does Wolfre have again?

[Biscuit]

This is what makes last season's draft perplexing, IMO. Unlike the Dallas dynasty, last season, we were a 6-10 football team. At 6-10, you are not in a position to just focus your draft efforts on attaining special teams depth: you need players who can come in a make an impact in an attempt to improve NEXT YEAR's football team.

Of our draft selections, only Rogers is making some level of impact and at this point, he has been unable to dislodge Walt Harris from his starting CB position.

Spot on Drex...the past two Redskin drafts make no sense for ANY team never mind one that has been bad for the past few years.

With Synder's money and Gibbs/Williams eye for fitting in talent, all that is needed is a better evaluator of college players. Thank goodness the myopia that Art suffers from is pandemic in your organzation.

[PapaDRoc]

Very intersting....Not sure why Gibbs would give up his job as team president, but I'm all for it.

[GSF]

Very intersting....Not sure why Gibbs would give up his job as team president, but I'm all for it.

:doh: I give up!

[FootballGuy2677]

It's broke

Isnt joe gibbs our head coach/gm or somthing? Joes drafted well if u asked me...

Note...

Sean Taylor

Chris Cooley

Carlos Rogers

our future qb that wont bust for once...Jason Campbell

Santana Moss

Casey Rabach

3 Years from now the smartest moves in joe gibbs 2nd era...keeping taylor jacobs...his story reminds me of hines ward, special teams player that didnt get a chance for 3 or 4 years then got a chance and dominated.

P.S Joe gibbs is doing fine and if your wondering when taylor jacobs chance will be it will be againts oakland.

[jrocrb96]

If it aint broke don't fix it.

What if you don't know it's not broken? LLS!

[DEFENSEGURU]

This subject isn't even open for debate. The Redskins have a horrible record of drafting, first round or last round.

The Skins have drafted Lavar, Sean Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Chris Samuels, and Patrick Ramsey with #1 picks. They drafted Smoot, Betts, and Jacobs in the 2nd round. Thats EIGHT players in the top 2 rounds and not one single player is going to be at a pro bowl level this season.

Thats one of the worst records in the NFL. I think most teams can get at least 1 player into the pro bowl with EIGHT #1 or #2 picks in 5 years.

Get a GM. This is not even debatable.

[TheLongshot]

If all the above is true then you are saying the "great success" of this group knowingly went into the season with a serious downgrade at a starting crucial defensive position (CB). After all Williams doesn't start rookies and Harris was only brought in for depth....so then why wasn't the defense upgraded at all? We downgraded at CB, LB, and looking at the result DL as well. That isn't brilliant FO work.

That's if you think Harris is a serious downgrade. I don't think so. Except for the last game, he's been pretty good. And they did upgrade with Rogers.

What team has been able to fill all their holes via FA and found continued long lasting success in the modern NFL? Looks to me that the top teams seem to draft very well and survive limited injury and turnover because most of the time they have capable cheap replacements on the bench. FA is too expensive and other then adding a some help here and there it mostly just strangles a ball club and limits their options in the future.

You are correct that FA isn't the answer, but I never said that. You don't fill all your positions with FA, just a few holes that you hadn't been able to find otherwise.

The draft isn't always an answer either. It is a crap shoot whether or not you get a good player, and you won't find out until down the road if you have one. Then you have to pay them big money to keep them. At the same time, ideally you'd like to have these guys backfill for guys you lose with FA, but it doesn't always work out that way.

I just don't see front office magic at work here. Portis' contract is too big for his production...he is a good player but he is the second highest paid back in the league. Is he that good? We got Moss but took a massive hit with Coles. Again good talent move but we paid a heavy price. We trade draft picks and pay a lot of money, but then we let go of two players on the D that had produced and replace them with less capable players while making no upgrades at other spots.

Well, in a pretty crappy offense, Portis got 1500 yards. As for Moss, it was only a heavy price for this season, and what is it worth to get rid of a cancer and replace him with a pro-bowler. As for the D, it was felt by a lot of people before the season that with the return to health of Lavar and Daniels, that would constitute an upgrade over what we had last year. Unfortunatly, things didn't work out with Daniels. Easy for you to critisize in hindsight.

The problem is that you are too impatient. You instantly want all the holes filled with this team in a couple of years. To be honest, with the shape the organization was when Gibbs took over, you should be doing backflips. For the first time in years, we are actually competitive. No, things aren't perfect, but after years of wandering through the desert, we now seem to be moving in the right direction.

Jason

[Art]

Huh? The group that brought you Michael Barrow' date=' no defensive line, two fullbacks, and Mark Brunell's soul-crushing contract.

Gibbs has had some hits. But it's not just getting good players like Brunell and Portis. It is how you get them. And he was conned on both those deals.[/quote']

This is the kind of mindless drivel that ought not be spoken by a fan of this team. The "fullbacks" we signed were not fullbacks at all, anymore than Cooley is. Nemo and White were single back runners in college. White projecting to H-Back in the pros and Nemo as a single back runner in the pros. Both ideally fitting our needs for a big, bruising runner and a backup H-back and developing player if they work out.

Barrow was a tremendously lucky signing on our part that turned out poorly -- the only signing that did -- for reasons no one could project. The intelligence of the move was obvious. You acquire a guy who is known as smart, knows Williams and his defense and was never hurt, playing a position we had no obvious answer for. He got hurt and never recovered. It happens, but, it is simply ignorant to suggest the move was bad because he got an unforseen injury he'd never had before.

Our defensive line remains among the league's best at stopping the run and was the league's best last year in that category. With Griffin healthy it'll be that this year. There's more to playing defensive line than rushing the QB. I wish people knew that.

Brunell and Portis have paid dividends for us with both getting better and better. We improved at corner and got an excellent runner. That's good stuff.