What's a Conservative???

[Renegade7]

Once I upon a time, I asked what a liberal was to make sure I knew what I was agreeing to.  I still question that to this day despite what I'm firm on, and a lot that comes from making sure what I disagree with.

 

 

 

So, one thing I've been wondering lately is if all republicans were really conservative.  I believe Fiscal Conservatism in this country is dead.  Reading the Republican Platform for 2016 makes very clear maintaining a military superiority to everyone else is a priority and cutting DoD is borderline political suicide as a GOP candidate.

 

https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL[1]-ben_1468872234.pdf

 

I noticed some grammatical errors, I don't know what draft that is, it can't be Final, that's embarrassing.  Anyways, a lot of the intro seems pretty close to conservatism, or at least my understanding of it:  Not wanting to stray too far away from intended interpretations of a society from a different time period. 

 

In our case, its a strict interpretation of the constitution as believing in the what Founding Fathers wanted being held to even in light of society changing around them at minimum.  What I'm reading, and would like clarification on if I'm wrong, is that someone's version of conservatism could be linked to a different time period then somebody else's society would consider conservative.  Many people consider our peak to be something like the 1950s when we were completely unchallenged by much of the world economically and only rivaled militarily by Russia.  Not to mention stuff like the Civil Rights Act and EPA were a decade or two away.  That's where I feel stuff like Race Relations and Regulations come into play, because I do believe a lot of white people are worried about the direction of the country once they aren't a majority anymore and businesses want as few laws in the way of them making money as possible, under the guise of a truly free market economy.

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conservatism

 

• Disposition in politics to preserve what is established
•  
• A political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change; specifically : such a philosophy calling for lower taxes, limited government regulation of business and investing, a strong national defense, and individual financial responsibility for personal needs (such as retirement income or health-care coverage)
•  
• The tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change 
• religious conservatism cultural conservatism

 

 

Again, I'd like to have this conversation because part of me wonders if people think they're conservative but really aren't.  For example, you hear the right scream a lot about socialism these days and not wanting it.  Fair, neither do I, but Medicare for All wouldn't make us a socialist country.  Not only that, polls show that up to 52% of Republicans actually support Medicare for All now.

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/big-majorities-including-republicans-support-medicare-for-all-policy-poll

 

That's half the damn party.  So of course that begs the question, who is this 52%?  It's really hard to say, but when I look deeper at some groups I think are suspect, you find stuff like nearly half of young evangelicals support Gay Marriage now:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/06/27/there-is-now-a-dramatic-generational-divide-over-white-evangelical-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/?utm_term=.5bec5a906172

 

To me, this screams an opportunity for conversation.  Sometimes I wonder if this new generation of Evangelicals will turn on their elders for their support for Trump, refusing to do anything in regards to climate change, and slashing social programs for the poor.  I wish Democrats would reach out to them from the angle of Jesus wanting us to help the poor and less fortunate where we could and reach out to people we normally wouldn't.  This gives me hopefor future conservatives (and begs the question how much mixing of support for liberal issues can take you away from being a conservative):

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/04/though-still-conservative-young-evangelicals-are-more-liberal-than-their-elders-on-some-issues/

 

 

 

Seeing a Progressive Conservative movement from my understanding of it would really be a site to see, as I've before, we are not better off without conservatives or a strong conservative party.  I'm beginning to wonder if this current Conservative Party is really even conservative.  I do believe being a conservative doesn't make you a Republican, but do you have to be a conservative to be a Republican? Trumps attacks on the Free Market economy with these Trade Wars and totally turning his back on Fiscal Conservatism makes one wonder what direction this party is actually heading.  I find it ironic conservatives by today's standards in regards to states rights and restraining the federal government like Jefferson wanted the Constitution to be reviewed, even expire every 20 years so that the dead didn't rule over the living.  Ya'll got to see how strange the difference of Liberalism and Conservatism was back in those days:

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-founding-liberal-and-the-founding-conservative-1507905412

 

So, ya, this is an attempt to have the conversation about what a Conservative is now, what will be in the immediate future, and the question of how many people aligning with the Republican party are really conservative anymore.  I expect Trump to come up, same way I expect ya'll to respect one another trying to make sure we are on the same page about this. I'm getting concerned how many people in this country support for Authoritarian Conservatism concerns the hell out of me because I don't believe it will just go away when Trump is out of office. My Trump friend tells me I surprise him constantly in some of my views, I tell him that doesn't surprise me.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

A real conservative? Nowadays, a true conservative is a Ronin... socially adrift with no political party to represent their philosophy or beliefs. I have a lot of respect for real conservatives. There's at least one on this board (even though we've pissed each other off more than a few times recently).

[Renegade7]

10 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

A real conservative? Nowadays, a true conservative is a Ronin... socially adrift with no political party to represent their philosophy or beliefs. I have a lot of respect for real conservatives. There's at least one on this board (even though we've pissed each other off more than a few times recently).

 

I feel bad for them.  I don't see anything wrong with somebody standing up in the room and asking "That sounds nice, but how are we going to pay for it?".  Same time a larger Federal Government is an irreconcilable stance that true Conservatives in this country can't cross over two, even if they agree with other things in our platform.  I have no idea where that leaves them if this populist movement in the GOP keeps up, the people in Congress I think could branch off and start another conservative party are staying GOP to stay in office or just leaving altogether, walking around in purgatory.

[tshile]

To me a conservative is someone who believes that government has an important, yet limited, role. It’s here to protect us from other government (military) and from ourselves (social safety nets and investments in common goods/goals like infrastructure, education, and law that furthers commerce with protections all the way around. ) it’s not here to make life fair. 

 

A conservative wants to make sure money is spent wisely, but is not against spending money just for the sake of being against spending money. A conservative recognizes wise investments even if it means your taxes go up to and someone else gets something from it in the near term. 

 

I do not believe a conservative requires strict interpretation of the constitution as it was written hundreds of years ago. I think that is a phony argument used for other reasons. I see no reason why a conservative cannot recognize the world has changed over the centuries and that one can take guiding principals of the founding fathers and fairly adjust them to meet today’s world. 

 

I believe a conservative can be compassionate and caring about the poor and unlucky. That one can believe he government has a role in caring for those for multiple reasons. 

 

In short- I do not believe be Republican Party meets basic requirements for conservatives any longer. 

 

In fact, the democrats appeal more. They believe in strong government (different from large government) and have a basic sense of compassion for others. That might be where the appeal ends, but’s it’s more than what the republicans have at the moment. 

 

When in think about the differences between conservative and liberal, in my head, I think of fundamental tenants about the governments role in adjusting society. To me conservative is believing that there should be a fair set of rules that everyone is playing by, but that ultimately you (and the family you come from) are responsible for your well being in life. Liberalism, to me, is believing that government has a role in trying to make sure you have a “fair and equal” shot at life and liberalism specifically seems to wipe away any (dis)advantage one may get simply due to the parents they were born too. 

 

I see pros and cons to each. I believe in parts of each but where I tend to be pulled conservative is when it comes to ideas about what to do about wealth, income, and other gaps in society. I’ve watched too many people sacrifice too much and work too hard for the betterment of their kids (and conversely have seen too much of the opposite) to think that the government should be trying to adjust the impact of that. 

 

What irks me the most about the modern day phony political conservative (usually referred to as a member of the GOP) is the complete lack of compassion for other people in, what seems like, all of their positions. Today’s “conservative” is easily defined as being against poor people; against brown people; against women. We can find plenty of examples of the left simply painting that picture because that’s their standard attack, but the truth is we can also find plenty of examples that actually support those descriptions. And to me that’s a shame because it paints the picture of a monster. 

 

I have more thoughts but I’ve rambled enough. 

[Bang]

As i was taught and supported,, conservatism is three basic principles.. 

1. maintain a strong and ready military

2. Maintain a free and fairly regulated market

3. As little government intrusion upon personal liberty as is reasonably possible.

 

 

this has become
1. worship the military, but give it nothing to assist it's members when they return from war.

2. **** the free market. Grab as you can, and bending the rules as often as possible to favor the super rich who can afford to play shady is not only good, but hilariously funny when it ****s over everybody, including the moron laughing.. Widening the income gap is somehow good for everyone.

3. Limited government except when it comes to religion, reproduction, protest, journalism, who you like to sleep with, what holiday you celebrate, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. pretty much everything that does not conform to the exceedingly narrow viewpoint espoused by the right. 
Also means no taxes should be paid and roads and bridges should be privatized, and other fun ways for the majority to be extorted as the results of #2 expand. 
 

Fact is most modern 'conservatives' are much more akin to subjects, not citizens. Zealous serfs, peasantry who support the king regardless and are thoroughly fearful for what may happen if the king isn't there to protect them.

 

~Bang

[TradeTheBeal!]

Hillary Clinton.

[PeterMP]

I'd warn against believing the current or next generation will be different than the older generation.

 

People generally become more "conservative" (less open minded and more fearful) as they age and millenials are a funny group anyway:

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/24/588069946/millennials-are-no-more-liberal-on-gun-control-than-elders-polls-show

 

https://www.bentley.edu/impact/articles/nowuknow-millennials-may-be-liberal-they-arent-predictable

 

"We know the millennial generation is the most liberal in the modern era — but, beyond that, familiar categorizations fail. Frustrated analysts have described millennial politics as a smorgasbord of paradoxes, self-opposing beliefs in constant metamorphosis, or, simply totally incoherent."

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-millennials/exclusive-democrats-lose-ground-with-millennials-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKBN1I10YH

 

"The online survey of more than 16,000 registered voters ages 18 to 34 shows their support for Democrats over Republicans for Congress slipped by about 9 percentage points over the past two years, to 46 percent overall. And they increasingly say the Republican Party is a better steward of the economy."

 

Conservatives should be people that are hesitant to support change ("The tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change").  What has happened is that conservatives today want massive changes (changes to the way things have been for essentially my whole life and I'm 45).  We need a 3rd group.  We should have liberals, conservatives, and retros.

 

If you support the existence of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Roe v. Wade and are hesitant to support large changes in those systems, you should be a conservative (I recognize that we need to do better with healthcare, but am not overly excited about the idea of going to a full single payer system or even Medicare for all, but certainly don't support efforts to defund it or to create a situation where it will be bankrupted).  If you want to eliminate them or scale them back and not replace them with something else, you'd be a retro.  If you are looking to aggressively dismantle those systems for something "new", you'd be a liberal.

[bearrock]

We need more parties.  This two party system puts lot of voters in between a rock and a hard place.

[zoony]

Conservatives believe in american exceptionalism, liberals believe america sucks

 

I think every conservative or liberal talking point can be boiled down to that

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

6 minutes ago, bearrock said:

We need more parties.  This two party system puts lot of voters in between a rock and a hard place.

I was thinking we have two too many.

 

2 minutes ago, zoony said:

Conservatives believe in american exceptionalism, liberals believe america sucks

 

I think every conservative or liberal talking point can be boiled down to that

The GOP president just ran on a campaign of America sucking and him being the only one who could make it better. It was literally his slogan.

[tshile]

50 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

The GOP president just ran on a campaign of America sucking because of the recent liberalization and him being the only one who could make it better. It was literally his slogan.

 

I’m not saying they were right with their view but let’s accurately describe it. 

 

The again is as important as the rest. Even if I think they were/are being silly. 

54 minutes ago, zoony said:

Conservatives believe in american exceptionalism, liberals believe america sucks

Which is probably why both party’s opinions on the most important issues tend to be awful. 

[zoony]

32 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

Which is probably why both party’s opinions on the most important issues tend to be awful. 

 

Yup.  Theres the bury your head and insist everything is perfect, or could be perfect if it was like it was...

Or

The country sucks and must pay for being evil, everything must change

 

1 is hitler, 2 is Lenin.  Its a distillation of every major viewpoint of either 

 

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

 

I’m not saying they were right with their view but let’s accurately describe it. 

 

The again is as important as the rest. Even if I think they were/are being silly. 

Which is probably why both party’s opinions on the most important issues tend to be awful. 

 

Trump's views on economics haven't changed since the 1980s.  His Supreme Court picks are highly supported by people interested in turning back Roe v. Wade and Civil Rights legislation.

 

It is only recent, if "recent" is over 30+ years ago.

 

(And the funny thing is people like Trump don't understand what made America great in terms of economics.  See the thread on Brenton Woods and income inequality that I just created.)

[TradeTheBeal!]

Conservatives listen to podcasts and masturbate in shame.

 

Liberals listen to music and dance and have rewarding social lives.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

I’m not saying they were right with their view but let’s accurately describe it. 

 

The again is as important as the rest. Even if I think they were/are being silly.

Yeah, I get that. The slogan by itself isn’t any different than saying we need hope and change. It’s all the other stuff about how awful everything we do is and how the country has been reduced to rubble and how everyone is laughing at us. Plus, no chance in hell either one of us is pointing to the guy whose mouth that came out of as a paragon of conservative values.

 

I’m also not looking to Zoony for advice on what it means to be a conservative. Neither of you particularly care for Democrats. That’s where the similarities stop. Your issue with Democrats starts with philosophical differences. I don’t believe Zoony believes in anything other then hating Democrats.

 

edit: And he lives in a fantasy world. “ democrats think America sucks“...  that’s just dumb. 

 

Heads up Zoony, you’re no conservative and you’re no Republican.You are pretty much the perfect example of the type of individual I fear people will start associating with those terms.

[c slag]

First and foremost to describe oneself as a conservative one must have a faith in Jesus Christ so personally I am eliminated from step one

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I answered...

 

1. Less conservative values then I thought.

2. Yes, but for a different reason.

 

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Conservatives listen to podcasts and masturbate in shame.

How do I go back and change my answer to question 1?

[Renegade7]

25 minutes ago, c slag said:

First and foremost to describe oneself as a conservative one must have a faith in Jesus Christ so personally I am eliminated from step one

For clarification, I asked about a conservative in general, and like I expected the interpretation is dominated by the American rendition of it.  My Trump friend is agnostic at best, yet he went to Trumps inauguration.  So know, you're faith is not a deal breaker, that's only for strict interpretations of the definition, which historically in this country has actually been a moving target since the Constitution was ratified.

10 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

I answered...

 

1. Less conservative values then I thought

 

and

 

2. Yes, but for a different reason.

 

This doesn't surprise me, and not because you're turned on the GOP for sticking with Trump.  You seem like far less of a social conservative then average staunch Republican I've met in my life, and I believe that's part of the future of conservatism in this country.

[Renegade7]

5 hours ago, PeterMP said:

I'd warn against believing the current or next generation will be different than the older generation.

 

People generally become more "conservative" (less open minded and more fearful) as they age and millenials are a funny group anyway:

 

 

One my biggest concerns is the Democratic Party will get taken over by the far left and I will get orphaned as well.  I find your comment on wanting to change something back to the way it was in an extreme fashion Liberal when believing something should be changed back to the way it used to be Conservative.  These two definitions get extremely hard to keep track of when you put in the context of changing time periods, as I too have heard the joke that you're a liberal when you're young then a conservative when you get older. 

 

In Jefferson's day, he was considered a crazy liberal, but by today's standards he's considered forefather of modern American conservatism.  That was one of the main points I wanted to bring about in this thread.  Agree whole-heartedly that the GOP has lost its way in wanting to say its a conservative party.  They come across with policies showing fear of any shadow that isn't their own and being total assholes towards the changing demographics in this country.  That's why I feel the "Good ol Days" are traced back to the 50s in this country where minorities and the rest of the world was more under our control.  The nonsense is thinking that's either possible or even a good idea, but its' getting fed red meat nearly every day now.

[Renegade7]

5 hours ago, Bang said:

As i was taught and supported,, conservatism is three basic principles.. 

1. maintain a strong and ready military

2. Maintain a free and fairly regulated market

3. As little government intrusion upon personal liberty as is reasonably possible.

 

See, I always felt this wasn't that bad, but that's not what's really happening. Our R&D and contractors are getting more love then our actually veterans, looking at the VA is a good start to solidify this argument.  I'm absolutely against socialism, but regulations are there to help protect us, that's not how they are treated by the business community. This third one seems like an argument AGAINST social conservatism, but as we can all see, its more for protecting personal liberties that people agree with.  I don't think you can ask to be left alone if you aren't bothering anybody then go after people that aren't bothering anybody, that's missing the point of freedom.

4 hours ago, zoony said:

Conservatives believe in american exceptionalism, liberals believe america sucks

 

I think every conservative or liberal talking point can be boiled down to that

 

Saying we're #1 without being #1 is flat out arrogance.  Saying this country is terrible shows a totally lack of context compared to other countries.  The answer is somewhere in the middle, which is hard to get to when both sides want to generalize **** so much.

[Springfield]

In my mind I associate “conservative” with social issues like believing in god, being pro life, anti gay marriage, anti pot, pro abstinence and all the other **** that those squares are into.  I associate “republican” with economic issues like deregulation, low taxes, military spending and all the other **** that fleeces our nations poor of a good life.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

17 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

One my biggest concerns is the Democratic Party will get taken over by the far left and I will get orphaned as well.

They sort of will but when it happens, the far left will look a lot different than what people think of today. It won't be good though.

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, Springfield said:

In my mind I associate “conservative” with social issues like believing in god, being pro life, anti gay marriage, anti pot, pro abstinence and all the other **** that those squares are into.  I associate “republican” with economic issues like deregulation, low taxes, military spending and all the other **** that fleeces our nations poor of a good life.

Given the Republican Party is an American Party and conservatism predates American, I can totally see this.  I do believe the GOP can get a better hold on its conservative roots while lightening up on their views of social conservatism.  Better yet, I think they have to at some point.

2 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

They sort of will but when it happens, the far left will look a lot different than what people think of today. It won't be good though.

 

I know, its part of the reason I started the Democratic Socialism thread.  I see us losing that battle due to misinformation, similar to the Trump voters who don't care about reality as long as they get what they think they are getting. I don't know if a centrist party is even possible in this country or what it will even mean to be a moderate Liberal or Conservative say 50 years from now.

[Bang]

13 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

See, I always felt this wasn't that bad, but that's not what's really happening. Our R&D and contractors are getting more love then our actually veterans, looking at the VA is a good start to solidify this argument.  I'm absolutely against socialism, but regulations are there to help protect us, that's not how they are treated by the business community. This third one seems like an argument AGAINST social conservatism, but as we can all see, its more for protecting personal liberties that people agree with.  I don't think you can ask to be left alone if you aren't bothering anybody then go after people that aren't bothering anybody, that's missing the point of freedom.

Absolutely,, one thing i forgot to mention in the second part of my post is that the military is also a crutch, a political card to play, a mechanism to maintain zealous fervor through manipulated fluffed up pride

 

As far as the 3rd, as little governmental intrusion as reasonably possible means there ARE social contracts.. things we recognize as necessary,, such as taxation to pay for roads and safe buildings and law enforcement and fire dept. etc. etc. etc. to keep a reasonable government functional. What it does mean is no nanny state. Not no welfare, charity is encouraged, and an enlightened society does have safety nets when needed. The ideal is that people claim enough responsibility for themselves to not abuse it.

 

Nowadays the 'conservative' also often considers all forms of social service by the government as bad, and a we saw from the 'government our of my medicare' signs, they often don't know what they are getting themselves. 
It's idiotic.

Today's conservative is anything but a conservative.

 

~Bang

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

similar to the Trump voters who don't care about reality as long as they get what they think they are getting.

Who think they're getting what they want even if they're actually getting **** on....

 

I knew what you meant though.