Team-by-Team High Round (1/2) Selections on the Fronts - Note: We're Not Good.

[carex]

I... can't believe you were serious. 

 

I am not a fan of hindsight.  AT ALL .  It pretty much makes me want to hurt people.

 

There's some that's acceptable, like Kelly's injury history, but if everybody in the world knew that Devin Thomas and Fred Davis were mistakes, like they try to act like, then they wouldn't have had 1-2 round draft grades on them.  This was not a case of drafting Cal Rossi.

[KDawg]

I am not a fan of hindsight.  AT ALL .  It pretty much makes me want to hurt people.

 

You assume that's the only reason why people think that was a bad draft.

 

Three pass catchers baffled most people here at that time. I think the most questioned pick was actually Davis, if I remember correctly. But Thomas was questioned simply due to the fact that he only really played one year at a high level. Kelly was questioned, too, but he was the one I was most comfortable with.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

COACH!

 

We REALLY need to synch up here.

 

You're putting things up and taking away chunks of research I'm doing as I delve in depth into the thread I'm floating on how to build a team properly using the draft.

 

DAMN YOU!

 

Humph!

 

Hail.

[KDawg]

COACH!

 

We REALLY need to synch up here.

 

You're putting things up and taking away chunks of research I'm doing as I delve in depth into the thread I'm floating on how to build a team properly using the draft.

 

DAMN YOU!

 

Humph!

 

Hail.

 

Ha! Been working on this for so long. Wish you would have beat me to the punch. I just looked at fronts, though. So you can add to it quite a bit.

[Thinking Skins]

In looking at it through the long-term... The Murphy pick isn't even all that bad. At least it's a front pick.

 

The Fred Davis, Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas picks were the ones that were unreal. Even with Davis being a minor hit for us, drafting three pass catchers in that draft was baffling.

Word is that Scott Campbell was on the table screaming AGAINST Malcolm Kelly but Vinny overwrote him and drafted Kelly anyway. Live and learn?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Ha! Been working on this for so long. Wish you would have beat me to the punch. I just looked at fronts, though. So you can add to it quite a bit.

 

I've been looking at O and D fronts and secondary's through the Allen era as well as a focal point damn you! .

 

The Whiteboard is not happy with it's big brother Chalk Talk. Always have to be first don't ya' damn it!

 

Hail.

[Destino]

The problem is that the Redskins build from the outside in. Hindsight doesn't factor in because needing a tall receiver doesn't matter if you believe that games are won and lost between the tackles.

The Redskins have neglected the lines for a long long time and many fans on this board note it each and every offseason when the draft talk picks up. It's not some revisionist history conjured up after Malcolm Kelly proved to be a bad pick.

[knowledge316]

we were trying to get a tall WR.  We only had Moss at the time

 

We also needed DL at the time. With THREE 2nd rounders, I wanted Calais Campbell with ONE of those picks. I hated that Vinny picked up THREE pass catchers. Didn't like Kelly pick because he was injury prone in college and didn't like the Davis pick because Cooley was still starting. 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I actually loved the Kelly pick at the time FWIW.

 

Of course I wasn't privy to the medical reports the boneheaded bungling twosome were. But having watched Malcom tear it up week on week prior to the injury with what was top bracket receiving talent for the Sooners it seemed a calculated gamble to me. Kelly was a tragic waste of limitless natural talent.

 

It was the Thomas and Davis picks prior to that one I hated.

 

Hail.

[dsciambi]

The problem is that the Redskins build from the outside in. Hindsight doesn't factor in because needing a tall receiver doesn't matter if you believe that games are won and lost between the tackles.

The Redskins have neglected the lines for a long long time and many fans on this board note it each and every offseason when the draft talk picks up. It's not some revisionist history conjured up after Malcolm Kelly proved to be a bad pick.

 

This is dead on, and it likely comes from the fact that so many of you grew up with the Hogs. The fans of this team LOVE linemen. I'd say probably more than any other fanbase, we'd be amiable to drafting a linemen with our top pick every year.

 

Every year that I've been on this board (almost a decade now), there have been calls to draft more linemen. And every single draft, we walk away shaking our heads. Even in the years we make good selections where the fanbase is happy (like Orakpo falling to us), the rest of the draft ends up being mind-boggling picks for the remainder.

[justice98]

Jarvis Jenkins has no impact.  Amerson gets beat every other drive.  Murphy looks like he cant rush from the outside.  How I wish we could've spent those 2nd rounders on olinemen.

 

The murphy pick still puzzles me, why draft a position with entrenched starters when there is oline talent that fits a need for us smh

 

That's like a double whammy, you draft Murphy, then tag Orakpo and tie up the money for this year.  They could've either found a lineman on either side of the ball worth drafting at the Murphy spot (and I refuse to believe there wasn't one), or used the Orakpo money to bolster the lines with a quality FA (or the secondary or whatever else).  

 

Even if Murphy's just going through rookie growing pains, he'd have to wind up being REALLY good to make it worthwhile given the talent deficiencies up front.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

That's quite an indictment...

 

We have flubbed every single OLine draft pick over that time span other than Williams? I don't really care if it's 2nd or 3rd round, we've spent a number of draft picks on OLinemen, none of which cracked the starting lineup. I know the salary cap penaltiy probably destroyed any free agency plans for starting OLinemen we may have had (although Shanahan seemed to prefer getting his OLinemen on the cheap)...but still.

[Bonez3]

Why would you draft Oline when it's already a strength..... Ugh

[KDawg]

The 'Skins have a weird fetish with drafting OLBs, too. Seems like every regime gets one.

[RhodeIsland Ave]

This is just sad. Although the trend is shifting a *little*, the picks:

2011 - 1st on Kerrigan, 2nd on J. Jenkins, 7th on Neild

2012 - 2nd on LeRib, 5th on Gettis, 6th on Compton

2013 - 0 picks on OL

2014 - 2nd on Murphy, 3rd on Moses, 4th on Long

 

You can easily say all are wasted picks with the exception of Kerrigan (not a star but avg/above avg).

I will list Jenkins, LeRib as BUSTS as they were high 2nds.

 

Maybe a little too early to speak on the 2014 draft  but i'll give it a shot:

• Murphy - I really don't know what to say. Seems they want him to rush up the middle. Not sure if that's the best use of his skills as he gets manhandled due to his lack of bulk. But anything this D Staff does, doesn't surprise me anymore. Will wait until next season when Orakpo isn't brought back and we get to see Murphy at his natural position to see if we wasted a pick..which I think we did but i don't want to call it yet.
• Moses has struggled when inserted, he doesn't look to be fleet of foot. Doesn't really posses the skills to be a tackle, should try him at Guard. Let his mass/strength dominate and his lack of explosiveness minimized.
• As for Long, it doesn't bode well for him when a 4th doesn't see the field when the players ahead of him are crap. Will wait until next year when he has a full offseason to prepare.

[KDawg]

This is just sad. Although the trend is shifting a *little*, the picks:

2011 - 1st on Kerrigan, 2nd on J. Jenkins, 7th on Neild

2012 - 2nd on LeRib, 5th on Gettis, 6th on Compton

2013 - 0 picks on OL

2014 - 2nd on Murphy, 3rd on Moses, 4th on Long

 

You can easily say all are wasted picks with the exception of Kerrigan (not a star but avg/above avg).

I will list Jenkins, LeRib as BUSTS as they were high 2nds.

 

Maybe a little too early to speak on the 2014 draft  but i'll give it a shot:

Moses has struggled when inserted, he doesn't look to be fleet of foot. Doesn't really posses the skills to be a tackle, should try him at Guard. Let his mass/strength dominate and his lack of explosiveness minimized.

As for Long, it doesn't bode well for him when a 4th doesn't see the field when the players ahead of him are crap. Will wait until next year when he has a full offseason to prepare.

 

LeRibeus wasn't a second rounder. He was a third.

 

The whole point of this post was to show the minimal top end resources we've put into the position. We've attempted to mask the problem with an abundance of late picks, but haven't tried the simpler solution in using top picks on it. Even second rounders.

 

The last time the 'Skins drafted an offensive lineman in the second round? 1999. Jon Jansen.

 

The last time the 'Skins drafted an offensive lineman in the first round PRIOR to Trent Williams? 2000. Chris Samuels.

[carex]

We also needed DL at the time. With THREE 2nd rounders, I wanted Calais Campbell with ONE of those picks. I hated that Vinny picked up THREE pass catchers. Didn't like Kelly pick because he was injury prone in college and didn't like the Davis pick because Cooley was still starting. 

 

but just a few years later having a second tight end would be considered something very important.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

but just a few years later having a second tight end would be considered something very important.

 

It's the Redskin way.

 

Screw the here and now. Let's budget for the future.

 

Like this years boneheaded top pick of taking Murphy WAY higher than most anyone had him. To not play him and have him contribute. When we have gaping holes that second rounder could of filled in a starting role.

 

If Allens not relinquished of his GM duties by next draft I'll be doing something productive draft weekend. Like washing my hair whilst he ****s us over again.

 

Hail.

[KDawg]

but just a few years later having a second tight end would be considered something very important.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with this line of thinking. It most certainly did.

 

The thing is, though, the Redskins build from skill positions then in.

 

Football is won and lost in the trenches, in my opinion. I'd say these are the most important positions in football to fill with talent as good as you can get:

 

QB, LT, LG, C, RG, RT, DT, DE, ILB/MLB, OLB, FS

 

Of these, when it pertains to 1st/2nd rounders, we've addressed:

 

QB (wayyyy too many times, even if necessary), LT, DE, OLB, FS.

 

That's 5 out of 11 positions. The only FS we selected early was Sean Taylor. The only LT was selected early was Trent Williams. The only DE we selected early was Jarvis Jenkins. We selected Griffin and Campbell as QBs. We selected Ryan Kerrigan, Rocky McIntosh, Brian Orakpo and Trent Murphy as OLBs. 

 

We've largely failed to address the OL/DL with any significant picks, as well as ILB. That's not a recipe for success. We were able to mask ILB with London Fletcher for awhile. (Thanks, 59!). 

 

I think you can get by with lesser talent corners, as long as they are a very good schematic fit. If they aren't, you'll need a versatile stud. So you can add that to the mix as well. 

[Birdlives]

I appreciate the research Kdawg, but I could've told you that without it. To go even further, if you look at every round of the draft, we also draft the fewest number of offensive and defensive linemen throughout the draft. So its not just that we don't value the lines and try to get starting caliber players in rounds 1 and 2, but we also give ourselves the fewest possible chances of finding diamonds in the rough or good developmental players in later rounds. That's ticked up a bit since Shanahan, but we're still in the back of the pack for number of overall picks spent on linemen.

[KDawg]

I appreciate the research Kdawg, but I could've told you that without it. To go even further, if you look at every round of the draft, we also draft the fewest number of offensive and defensive linemen throughout the draft. So its not just that we don't value the lines and try to get starting caliber players in rounds 1 and 2, but we also give ourselves the fewest possible chances of finding diamonds in the rough or good developmental players in later rounds. That's ticked up a bit since Shanahan, but we're still in the back of the pack for number of overall picks spent on linemen.

 

I knew this was going to be the case. I wanted it to be posted.

 

Some people, I think, have this misconception that we've addressed the fronts. This research should, if they read it, help to sway that thought.

 

I'm interested in the every round of the draft fewest number of OL/DL study that you speak of. I know we're definitely one of the bottom dwellers there, but I'm wondering if anyone is even close...

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I knew this was going to be the case. I wanted it to be posted.

 

Some people, I think, have this misconception that we've addressed the fronts. This research should, if they read it, help to sway that thought.

 

I'm interested in the every round of the draft fewest number of OL/DL study that you speak of. I know we're definitely one of the bottom dwellers there, but I'm wondering if anyone is even close...

 

Like you wouldn't believe. The make up of home grown line talent on other teams as opposed to our own, both starting and depth, is sickening.

 

But stop stealing my thunder damn you!

 

Hail.

 

*Edit* And that goes for UFA who stay at one club too.

[ILikeBilly]

Jarvis Jenkins has no impact.  Amerson gets beat every other drive.  Murphy looks like he cant rush from the outside.  How I wish we could've spent those 2nd rounders on olinemen.

 

The murphy pick still puzzles me, why draft a position with entrenched starters when there is oline talent that fits a need for us smh

I think Amerson will be a good long-term starter.  As for why Murphy, that is because we need leverage on Orakpo. Likely, he is gone next year and we will have an experienced 2nd year player to take over. 

[ILikeBilly]

The last time the 'Skins drafted an offensive lineman in the second round? 1999. Jon Jansen.

 

The last time the 'Skins drafted an offensive lineman in the first round PRIOR to Trent Williams? 2000. Chris Samuels.

So you are saying we are one of the best teams in the NFL at picking linemen early!!!!  Kidding aside, a team can get a top guard or center even in the 2nd round. 

 

The solution seems so easy - trade back with our (seems to be) early 1st round pick this year and with the mid/late first round pick, take oline and with our (seems to be) early 2nd, take a guard or center.  With some luck, our oline is now set for several years. 

[carex]

I don't necessarily disagree with this line of thinking. It most certainly did.

 

The thing is, though, the Redskins build from skill positions then in.

 

Football is won and lost in the trenches, in my opinion. I'd say these are the most important positions in football to fill with talent as good as you can get:

 

QB, LT, LG, C, RG, RT, DT, DE, ILB/MLB, OLB, FS

 

Of these, when it pertains to 1st/2nd rounders, we've addressed:

 

QB (wayyyy too many times, even if necessary), LT, DE, OLB, FS.

 

That's 5 out of 11 positions. The only FS we selected early was Sean Taylor. The only LT was selected early was Trent Williams. The only DE we selected early was Jarvis Jenkins. We selected Griffin and Campbell as QBs. We selected Ryan Kerrigan, Rocky McIntosh, Brian Orakpo and Trent Murphy as OLBs. 

 

We've largely failed to address the OL/DL with any significant picks, as well as ILB. That's not a recipe for success. We were able to mask ILB with London Fletcher for awhile. (Thanks, 59!). 

 

I think you can get by with lesser talent corners, as long as they are a very good schematic fit. If they aren't, you'll need a versatile stud. So you can add that to the mix as well. 

 

 

I haven't done as much research as you but the mock drafts I've seen over the years and remembering what drafts I do remember inspired me to go back and check something out.

 

Most teams seem to build from the outside high in the draft, aside from QBs.  WRs are a frequent target.  CBs are drafted more than safeties.  OLBs more than ILBs.  DEs more than DTs, though that's closer.  OTs more than interior line.  Guards are taken late in the first early in the second more than early in the first, meaning by teams that are already pretty good, or teams that didn't feel they could take a guard high and traded back, or by teams that already tried to get a playmaker