Kobe joins the 30,000 point club: so where does he rank all-time now?

You must give credit where it is due, Kobe is one of only five players ever to hit the 30,000 point mark. He is the youngest but in terms of games played it took him the longest of the five.

Bryant was the fifth-fastest player -- in terms of games played -- to reach the milestone, needing 1,179. Chamberlain was the fastest at 941 games, followed by Jordan (960), Abdul-Jabbar (1,101) and Malone (1,152). Bryant also was the youngest player to reach the 20,000-point mark.

So now with this big milestone surpassed, where does Kobe Bryant rank all-time in NBA history?

I'd say somewhere between 6-10. Closer to 6 than 10 though.

Not even in the top 10. He would be second string to the true legends of the sport.

Can't stand him, don't care about his stats. He epitomizes the "it's all about me" generation of basketball.

5 or 6 greatest player all time.

Consult Book of Basketball. The answer is #15.

Not even in the top 10. He would be second string to the true legends of the sport.

Can't stand him, don't care about his stats. He epitomizes the "it's all about me" generation of basketball.

You can hate the guy for who he is, and I won't say Kobe Bryant is a saint, but he is in a rarefied fraternity of players.

Besides, you could say the exact same (selfishness) about the other four members of the 30,000 club. None of them are even in the top 30 in career assists.

I think he might finish in the top ten. That's where I voted. He'll never be top five though.

- Jordan

- Russell

- Wilt

- Kareem

- Bird

- Magic

- Oscar

- Moses

- Karl Malone

That's an easy 9 who were better than him and he will probably never pass in significant individual achievements. LeBron is going to pass him too. And Kobe still has work to do to distance himself from Hakeem, Robinson, West, Shaq, and Barkley. Right now he's milling around their tier.

And if you include ABA in the discussion, Dr. J and Artis Gilmore are currently ahead of him.

Problem with Kobe's legacy is he's lacked the efficiency of the other all time greats and got three of his rings as the sidekick on his team. Plus he's never had a year of his career where you could say he was indisputably the best player in the league that season. He's been the fourth best player of his era behind Duncan, Dirk, and Garnett and has only starter to catch up to them now that they are old.

But I think by the time he hangs it up he'll have such a crazy volume of stats he'll force his way into the top ten discussion just like how Karl Malone did it. He looks like he's got years left to his career.

#1 at getting away with rape! ba-dum-tssshhh

I rank him around #10, at the highest.

---------- Post added December-6th-2012 at 10:48 AM ----------

Can't stand him, don't care about his stats. He epitomizes the "it's all about me" generation of basketball.

I feel the same way..

You can hate the guy for who he is, and I won't say Kobe Bryant is a saint, but he is in a rarefied fraternity of players.

Besides, you could say the exact same (selfishness) about the other four members of the 30,000 club. None of them are even in the top 30 in career assists.

Points don't tell the whole story, at the end of the day the question in my mind is, which guy do you want on your team? This question goes to fans and players alike. Most fans I think would love him because he would bring a championship hope for them, I just don't know if I'd want to be on the same team as him, especially the way management lets him have say over personel.

I think he might finish in the top ten. That's where I voted. He'll never be top five though.

- Jordan

- Russell

- Wilt

- Kareem

- Bird

- Magic

- Oscar

- Moses

- Karl Malone

There is NO way whatsoever Moses and Karl rank above Timmy. At all. Zero. Tim Duncan is so criminally underrated it is absurd.

Consult Book of Basketball. The answer is #15.

Yeah but the book was published before Kobe won his 2009 championship as the man on his team.

Kobe would be ranked higher today because he did lead those two teams to championships (albeit his team was loaded).

In general, I don't agree with all of his rankings. I think he ranks Russell a bit too high and Wilt too low because he overvalues team success for ranking individuals. If Wilt had been on teams with Tommy Heinsohn and Bob Cousy and Sam Jones and Havlicek and god knows how many other HoFers, he'd have won a ton of rings too. The fact of the matter is Wilt was Goliath, completely changed the game in a way greater than Russell did, and was not put into the same situation for success as Russell. He had more of an uphill battle to climb to reach the heights Russell did.

I also think Sports Guy overvalued Shaq and undervalued Kobe, Dirk, and Robinson, and I think he undervalued Moses and way undervalued Karl Malone. He overvalues Elgin Baylor and Jerry West IMO.

Sports Guy thinks little of Malone, a lot of fans do, but you simply can't argue with what he accomplished. Second in points, third in career WS. That's worth top 10 IMO. I don't blame him for not getting a ring because he ran up against Jordan's Bulls twice at a point when Jordan was completely invincible. I can't blame him for not being able to beat the greatest to ever play the game at the height of his powers. Take out Jordan or put Malone in another era and he would have won at least one ring.

I think Moses gets a bad rap because he changed teams so much but that's just how free agency worked back then. When you look at his actual ability and the individual contributions he brought to his teams, he's one of the best to ever do it.

I also think Shaq does not get enough criticism for his laziness, prickliness, and unreliability. Shaq might have left 40% of his career on the table all told. If you were starting a team from scratch, He would not be one of the first 15 players you would take IMO. I would take Kobe over him because I can trust him to be professional always.

I think he overvalues a lot of the pre-merger players when the competition level of the league was flukier and it was much less professional.

---------- Post added December-6th-2012 at 11:44 AM ----------

There is NO way whatsoever Moses and Karl rank above Timmy. At all. Zero. Tim Duncan is so criminally underrated it is absurd.

I hear you. Although I think you're underestimating Moses. The guy was one of the true greats.

I can see ranking Duncan over Karl because he's a better pure player no doubt. But Karl did it for 19 years! That's every bit as astonishing as Kareem's longevity and Kobe's longevity will end up being. He's third all time in NBA/ABA history in career win shares. He wasn't some guard that got by on his wiles long after his athleticism was gone (Stockton). He was a big man that ran the floor and rebounded in an era with a lot of other great bigs who were allowed to beat the crap out of each other every night. That must have been brutal.

He may not have spectacular or signature moments throughout his career like Duncan. But take my scenario of your a GM and you get to draft a team from scratch choosing from the All Time list in NBA history. Do you take Malone top ten? Got to be at least top 12 right? He gives you a window damn near two decades long. I don't typically value longevity above things like efficiency and all around play but damn, longevity like that is special and definitely worth something.

I'm a lifelong Laker fan but I've never warmed to Kobe as a person. Living in So Cal for almost all of that time I have some stories about him (run ins with friends of mine) that just lowered him even further in my eyes. Complete diva. None of that keeps me from basing my rating on JUST what he does while on the court. He's not even the best Laker ever but he really is, outside of Elgin Baylor & MJ, perhaps the best PURE scorer the game has ever seen. His talent is undeniable and he possesses a maniac's drive to win and improve.

I'm a lifelong Laker fan but I've never warmed to Kobe as a person. Living in So Cal for almost all of that time I have some stories about him (run ins with friends of mine) that just lowered him even further in my eyes. Complete diva. None of that keeps me from basing my rating on JUST what he does while on the court. He's not even the best Laker ever but he really is, outside of Elgin Baylor & MJ, perhaps the best PURE scorer the game has ever seen. His talent is undeniable and he possesses a maniac's drive to win and improve.

Magic is the best Laker ever IMO.. Actually i rate Magic @ #2 on the greatest ever list behind Jordan.

I hear you. Although I think you're underestimating Moses. The guy was one of the true greats.

I can see ranking Duncan over Karl because he's a better pure player no doubt. But Karl did it for 19 years! That's every bit as astonishing as Kareem's longevity and Kobe's longevity will end up being. He's third all time in NBA/ABA history in career win shares. He wasn't some guard that got by on his wiles long after his athleticism was gone (Stockton). He was a big man that ran the floor and rebounded in an era with a lot of other great bigs who were allowed to beat the crap out of each other every night. That must have been brutal.

He may not have spectacular or signature moments throughout his career like Duncan. But take my scenario of your a GM and you get to draft a team from scratch choosing from the All Time list in NBA history. Do you take Malone top ten? Got to be at least top 12 right? He gives you a window damn near two decades long. I don't typically value longevity above things like efficiency and all around play but damn, longevity like that is special and definitely worth something.

If I want to win rings, I'll take Tim Duncan. Man, what a defender in his prime. Karl is an all-time great but the greatest PF ever is Tim. you are right though about Malone being unfortunate in when he went to the Finals. Though in 97-98 MJ wasn't quite invincible as he wasn't close to the defender he was in the late 80s/early 90s. But that's okay when you have Rodman, Pippen and Ron Harper.

Points don't tell the whole story, at the end of the day the question in my mind is, which guy do you want on your team? This question goes to fans and players alike. Most fans I think would love him because he would bring a championship hope for them, I just don't know if I'd want to be on the same team as him, especially the way management lets him have say over personel.

The thing that separates MJ from Kobe by a WIDE margin, IMO.. Is that MJ won his titles without a dominant big man. Actually all of his Centers were below average - average (at best). Kobe could not, nor did he win a title without, either a dominant big man (Shaq), or dominant front court play (Bynum/Gasol). Otherwise his teams were exited from the playoffs in historic fashion. Another thing about Kobe.. Save for the 2009 playoffs, his playoff performances actually regress from the regular season. Jordan was the complete opposite. Man i can go on and on about this.

I don't know, FIFTH?

If Jordan didn't retire the first time, does Hakeem ever get his rings? Honestly, as transcendent as he was in 93 & 94, I don't think he would. I don't think Jordan loses a finals at that point in his career.

So if Hakeem doesn't win his rings, where does he rank all time? Probably a lot lower. I think those big men of his era end up getting way underrated because the Celtics and Lakers and Pistons were so loaded nobody could beat them and then they couldn't beat Jordan when he finally got a team around him capable of being a vehicle to his greatness. But I bet if you take Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, and Hakeem out of that era and put them in the 70's, 2000's, or 2010's or give them better teams in the 80's they would have ripped through the league. Those guys were extraordinary players that excelled in all aspects of their positions. Their skill level was just so superior compared to anything we've seen from everyone but Duncan and KG since.

Elton Brand never would have been one of the best bigs in the league with Barkley, Ewing, Malone, or Robinson around, that's for damn sure. And I doubt Shaq gets close to four rings if those guys had come into the league at the same time as him.

---------- Post added December-6th-2012 at 12:10 PM ----------

Magic is the best Laker ever IMO.. Actually i rate Magic @ #2 on the greatest ever list behind Jordan.

I think Kareem is. He accomplished a lot for the Bucks but he's really remembered as a Laker. I think he was with the Lakers long enough and did enough for them while there for LA to claim him. There is no doubt Kareem was better than Kobe and Magic.

I think Kareem is #2 behind Jordan. If you look at his whole basketball career including his time at UCLA, I think he's arguably the greatest basketball player in American history, just a bit ahead of Jordan.

But just off of NBA history, which is all anyone usually cares about, I'd say he's #2.

Magic is the best Laker ever IMO.. Actually i rate Magic @ #2 on the greatest ever list behind Jordan.

I have Magic below Larry. When both were healthy, Larry looked like he would've been the superior player. Unfortunately, Bird broke his back, Reggie Lewis/Len Bias died and the Celtics championship window slammed shut. So because he has 3 rings, he is put behnd Magic who has five.

But a SF giving you 28/10/6 a game while being lethally clutch and good in a team defensive system is pretty much impossible to go against.

If I want to win rings, I'll take Tim Duncan. Man, what a defender in his prime. Karl is an all-time great but the greatest PF ever is Tim. you are right though about Malone being unfortunate in when he went to the Finals. Though in 97-98 MJ wasn't quite invincible as he wasn't close to the defender he was in the late 80s/early 90s. But that's okay when you have Rodman, Pippen and Ron Harper.

Yeah I'd take Duncan too. I think it was during the Wizards game they mentioned Duncan made a promise to his dying mother that he would get a college degree and that was the reason he stayed all four years at Wake. Imagine if that never happens and Duncan came out to the NBA as soon as possible. His career would be even greater. Crazy. Then again the Spurs wouldn't have been bad enough to get him at that point. He could have ended up in Golden State or Milwaukee.

---------- Post added December-6th-2012 at 12:20 PM ----------

I have Magic below Larry. When both were healthy, Larry looked like he would've been the superior player. Unfortunately, Bird broke his back, Reggie Lewis/Len Bias died and the Celtics championship window slammed shut. So because he has 3 rings, he is put behnd Magic who has five.

But a SF giving you 28/10/6 a game while being lethally clutch and good in a team defensive system is pretty much impossible to go against.

It's pretty crazy how much bad luck hit the Celtics right around the end of that era. It's as if the basketball gods decided their time was over and decided to end it in the most cruel ways possible. At least they finally made it back.

Magic is the best Laker ever IMO...

Yup. Unquestionably. Quite an honor when you consider what players have laced up the hightops for this team.

I think Kareem is #2 behind Jordan. If you look at his whole basketball career including his time at UCLA, I think he's arguably the greatest basketball player in American history, just a bit ahead of Jordan.

But just off of NBA history, which is all anyone usually cares about, I'd say he's #2.

Kareem had the most unstoppable shot in the history of the game. But as a total basketball player, which as minimal weaknesses as anyone who ever played. I gotta give it to MJ.

-superior scorer

-superior perimeter defender

-possessed the ability to facilitate, in the mode of a PG

-One of the hardest workers on his game

-Made his teammates better

His only weakness, IMO was his 3 point shooting. Kareem was an all time great, he's not above or on par with MJ, IMO. No one is.

---------- Post added December-6th-2012 at 12:31 PM ----------

Yup. Unquestionably. Quite an honor when you consider what players have laced up the hightops for this team.

Not only that, but there is NO one that made his teammates into all stars the way that Magic did. He single-handedly made careers for alot of his teammates.

I think he might finish in the top ten. That's where I voted. He'll never be top five though.

- Jordan

- Russell

- Wilt

- Kareem

- Bird you can make a great case he better than Bird

- Magic you can make the case he better than him too

- Oscar

- Moses {Kobe better than him too

- Karl Malone (absolutely not)

That's an easy 9 who were better than him and he will probably never pass in significant individual achievements. LeBron is going to pass him too. And Kobe still has work to do to distance himself from Hakeem, Robinson, West, Shaq, and Barkley(he is better than all of them too). Right now he's milling around their tier.

And if you include ABA in the discussion, Dr. J and Artis Gilmore are currently ahead of him. [no they are not

Problem with Kobe's legacy is he's lacked the efficiency of the other all time greats and got three of his rings as the sidekick on his team. Plus he's never had a year of his career where you could say he was indisputably the best player in the league that season. He's been the fourth best player of his era behind Duncan, Dirk, and Garnett(the only legit argument is Duncan who you underrate all time)and has only starter to catch up to them now that they are old.

But I think by the time he hangs it up he'll have such a crazy volume of stats he'll force his way into the top ten discussion just like how Karl Malone did it. He looks like he's got years left to his career.

the hate im seeing of Kobe's greatness is mindboggling and sad.

Ultimately it's impossible to answer this question as there are far too many variables and nobody can agree how to weigh each of them. But it's fascinating to observe how small differences could completely shift opinion. If Jordan is called for the offensive foul in the 1998 finals, maybe the Jazz win that series. Suddenly Malone's career is viewed infinitely more favorably. All from changing 5 quarters of basketball over a 15+ year career, we completely change how effective of a player we think Malone is.

There is no way that winning those 2 games makes Malone 20% better at basketball, but winning them would have convinced everyone he was better by an even greater factor than 20%.