Kobe joins the 30,000 point club: so where does he rank all-time now?

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

[Renegade7]

You can always tell who doesn't like Kobe in threads like these. I'm not a basketball expert, but 30,000 is a lot of points, imo. I remember when he dropped 81 on Toronto, and people are still talking about how many other players could've done that in any era.

5 rings is pretty good, too. It's not like he was coming off the bench for the those championships, either...

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

You can always tell who doesn't like Kobe in threads like these. I'm not a basketball expert, but 30,000 is a lot of points, imo. I remember when he dropped 81 on Toronto, and people are still talking about how many other players could've done that in any era.

5 rings is pretty good, too. It's not like he was coming off the bench for the those championships, either...

dude, its strange. They cannot separate their personal feelings from an appreciation of what Kobe has done.

This thread is a backhanded compliment

Instead of congratulating him on his achievement, he has to be torn down because he isnt Michael Jordan.

Kobe is going to be a player that will be appreciated many years later. Its unfortunate that he came into the NBA so close to the MJ era because that is held against him. Especially on here.

[Going Commando]

You can always tell who doesn't like Kobe in threads like these. I'm not a basketball expert, but 30,000 is a lot of points, imo. I remember when he dropped 81 on Toronto, and people are still talking about how many other players could've done that in any era.

5 rings is pretty good, too. It's not like he was coming off the bench for the those championships, either...

I don't really like Kobe. I've always hated the Lakers and Kobe has been the face of them forever. Plus he was selfish and inefficient and those are two things I've usually been harsh on.

But I'm also trying to understand the truth first and foremost and to me, the evidence points to Kobe either being a top ten player right now, or he's almost certainly going to be one by the time he retires. The basketball world agrees with me on this, and judging from the poll, most of the voters here agree too.

And I think he either is or will be the second greatest Laker since I count Kareem as a Laker and I think he will eventually pass Magic.

Lost in all of the turmoil of the Lakers season is the fact that Kobe is having an absolutely amazing year. A legit MVP caliber year. One of the best years of his career. His WS/48 right now is .245, easily the best of his career. Right now he's on pace for a 15.6 WS season, which would be the best of his career. He's also leading the league in PPG at 28.0 and is shooting an awesome .490, which would also be the best % of his career.

Durant has been the best and is the frontrunner for the MVP today, but honestly, I'd put Kobe second so far this season. He won't finish nearly that high because the Lakers aren't winning but it's been no fault of his. And the fact that he's been able to play at this level despite all of the problems surrounding him makes it that much more impressive to me. Not to mention he's 1400 games into his NBA career. It's crazy that he's able to reach this level of play through the first quarter of the season. Especially coming off all of the injuries he had last year. He looks completely rejuvenated and is playing much better than he did last season.

He's played at an extremely high level for an extremely long time. If he keeps up this pace for three more years, he's going to break the points record. And if he does play close to this level for several more years, just how high can he climb on the all time list?

Longevity matters. No it's not enough for him to break into the tier of the completely, spectacularly dominant with Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, and Russell. But everyone else is in play IMO.

Every year your great player turns in a great season is one where you've got a chance at a ring so long as you can put the right pieces in place around him. That's a GM winning his first battle.

[tone_dubbz]

Its unfortunate that he came into the NBA so close to the MJ era because that is held against him. Especially on here.

Him coming into the league thinking he was MJ is what turned me into a Kobe hater.

[nuposse87]

1. MJ

2. Russell

3. Kareem

4. Wilt

5. Magic

6. Bird

7. Duncan

8. Shaq

9. Kobe

10. Oscar

Even winning another championship and surpassing Jordan's scoring total doesn't better his legacy. His inefficiency comparatively to the rest of the field speaks volume as does his win production when he had Shaq shipped out of town.

[Burgold]

It's interesting comparing eras, but one factor I don't know whether anyone's thought about or how in the world you would calculate it is the three point shot. How many extra points would some of the old time players would have had... especially in the pre-dunk era? PPG might be very, very different.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Him coming into the league thinking he was MJ is what turned me into a Kobe hater.

you are the same age as Kobe.

You probably looked up to Jordan.

If you played basketball, dont front like you didnt stick your tongue out when going to the basket.

I think thats the other thing with the hatred of Kobe. Dude was a Jordan fan, but was the only one that came close to replicating it, and was doing it at 18. It hurt a lot of peoples feelings, lol.

---------- Post added December-7th-2012 at 10:33 AM ----------

It's interesting comparing eras, but one factor I don't know whether anyone's thought about or how in the world you would calculate it is the three point shot. How many extra points would some of the old time players would have had... especially in the pre-dunk era? PPG might be very, very different.

when was the pre-dunk era? The 1950s?

Most guys were taking 2 point shots from the mid range in that era. You could argue stepping further back would hurt their numbers.

[Sticksboi05]

you are the same age as Kobe.

You probably looked up to Jordan.

If you played basketball, dont front like you didnt stick your tongue out when going to the basket.

I think thats the other thing with the hatred of Kobe. Dude was a Jordan fan, but was the only one that came close to replicating it, and was doing it at 18. It hurt a lot of peoples feelings, lol.

Rape charge doesn't help either...

But back to basketball, he's top 10 ever, near the bottom. It's just annoying when the Kobe lovers dismiss the statistically-backed arguments for why he's not top 5. Kobe's biggest edge is longevity. But there are many players in their prime I'd take over him, from this era, one at his position (Dwyane Wade).

[JMS]

So basically, for almost all of Russell's career, there were only 8 or 9 teams in the league.

Hell man there are fewer teams in the league today.... Since Kobe Bryant broke into the league in 1996 only 7 teams have won championships in 16 years. 9 in the last 32 years!

There is no parity of talent in the NBA... a few great players compete for the title every year and every year most teams over decades never have a shot.

The league didn't get any harder to win when the Wizards and Sacramento got franchises.

[Sticksboi05]

Yeah let's be real, the NBA every year is a 4-6 team league with about 26 fillers there because they need to be there.

[JMS]

Its unfortunate that he came into the NBA so close to the MJ era because that is held against him. Especially on here.

I disagree. MJ came into the league trying to be Dr. J and it didn't hurt him long term, as he eventually found his own following.

What hurt Kobe wasn't the shadow of Jordan, rather it was Kobe.

#1 Winning is not the most important thing to Kobe.. Kobe is; or that's the perception.

Can you imagine Michael Jordan running Scottie Pipen off the team cause he was tired of sharing the spotlight?

I don't think so. That's what Kobe did with Shaq.

#2 Kobe doesn't work hard and doesn't listen to his coaches. Phil Jackson criticized Kobe in his prime for this in his book.

Phil would talk about telling Shaq to do something "sprints or runs" and not worrying about whether they would get done contrasting that

with Kobe who he would have to check up on or watch do the drills or he wouldn't do them.

#3 Kobe regularly runs down the players on his team, publically even in the media.

#4 Kobe doesn't make players around him better, never has. He's the opposite... Players round Kobe are so tentative because they don't want to upset him

they regress. Forget about bringing up a young player with Kobe on the court. Even veterans are afraid to take shots, afraid to play independently of Kobe.

#5 He's not only a bad leader, he's a bad team mate..

#6 As talented as Kobe is, and he is very talented, he really hasn't done much with it. 1 MVP over his entire career. He's played in a vacuum

of talent relative to previous era's and he's only won 1 MVP. 2 scoring titles over 16 years. Kinda tells you all you need to know of Kobe.

A very good player in a down era for the NBA. Greatest of All time, not really in the discussion.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Rape charge doesn't help either...

But back to basketball, he's top 10 ever, near the bottom. It's just annoying when the Kobe lovers dismiss the statistically-backed arguments for why he's not top 5. Kobe's biggest edge is longevity. But there are many players in their prime I'd take over him, from this era, one at his position (Dwyane Wade).

thats right, its you who said this.

---------- Post added December-7th-2012 at 11:27 AM ----------

I disagree. MJ came into the league trying to be Dr. J and it didn't hurt him long term,

you really gonna compare the Dr J's media oull back in 1984, to Jordan's in 1997 when Kobe entered the league? I dont recall a song called "I wanna be like Doc,"

#1 Winning is not the most important thing to Kobe.. Kobe is; or that's the perception.

Can you imagine Michael Jordan running Scottie Ripen off the team cause he was tired of sharing the spotlight?

I don't think so. That's what Kobe did with Shaq.

this is one of those myths that keeps getting repeated despite it being debunked. The Lakers organization told Shaq to kick rocks, not Kobe. The decision had nothing to do with Kobe. Kobe was mad that Shaq wasnt staying in shape and kept getting injuries due to him being out of shape. Remember "I got injured on company time, so I will get healthy on company time" line that Shaq said? Thats what was killing their relationship, not Kobe's desire to be the #1 dog. But Kobe still wanted Shaq around. Then Kobe spilled the beans and said it was Jerry Buss who wanted Shaq out, and Shaq confirmed it. But it still keeps getting repeated that it was Kobe's fault.

#2 Kobe doesn't work hard and doesn't listen to his coaches. Phil Jackson criticized Kobe in his prime for this in his book.

Phil would talk about telling Shaq to do something "sprints or runs" and not worrying about whether they would get done contrasting that

with Kobe who he would have to check up on or watch do the drills or he wouldn't do them.

the bolded part is just flat out untrue

Phil Jackon said that in his book, then a year later returned to coach the Lakers and eventually won 2 more titles with Kobe. Then tried to come back and coach a Kobe Bryant lead team a 3rd time. Yes, lets use those words.

And Shaq being a hard worker

#3 Kobe regularly runs down the players on his team, publically even in the media.

so did Jordan. So did Bird. So did Magic. So did many other great players. Its annoying that Kobe does it because its 2012 and the 24/7 media cycle and the internet. If you want to get angry at something a famous person does, all you have to do is search for it. Kobe also won 5 championships being an *******.

#4 Kobe doesn't make players around him better, he's the opposite... Players round Kobe are so tentative because they don't want to upset him

they regress. They are afraid to take shots, afraid to play independently of Kobe.

Its hard to make Brian Cook, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm better players.

Of course, this also ignores that Kobe did make others around him reach their capabilities. Luke Walton got a terrible contract because Kobe was getting him open looks. Smush Parker got a 2 year contract because of Kobe. We had people believing Pau Gasol was a dominant big man because of Kobe. Derek Fisher is still in the NBA because of Kobe. Wizard fans, how good as Trevor Ariza been for us? He got his contract because Kobe taught him how to shoot properly, and Ariza is still garbage.

#5 He's not only a bad leader, he's a bad team mate..

this is based on your anger and no facts

[tone_dubbz]

you are the same age as Kobe.

You probably looked up to Jordan.

If you played basketball, dont front like you didnt stick your tongue out when going to the basket.

I think thats the other thing with the hatred of Kobe. Dude was a Jordan fan, but was the only one that came close to replicating it, and was doing it at 18. It hurt a lot of peoples feelings, lol.

Coming into the league acting like he was on MJ's level, yeah ok. Why? Because he was straight out of high school? Your boy was throwing up air balls from the 3 point line trying to be the man his rookie season.

Stats aside, he's made it easy to hate him.

He gets in trouble for rape for smashing some dirty white girl, then rats out Shaq to detectives because he does the same thing? Then gets Shaq exhiled from LA, because he was wants to be the big spoon? Yeah, I'm a Kobe hater alright. He can hoop, but he's a *****.

[JMS]

You're the only person I've ever seen present FG%s that way. A much more familiar and common way to say it would be that Kobe shot twenty-three % better than Baylor since you're talking about the tenths and hundredths place. That's huge. Do you seriously not know this or are you just trying to throw arguments out there to see what sticks?

Actually you are talking about the hundredth and thousands place..

Elgin Baylor shot .431 or 43.1% FG%

Kobe Bryant shot .454 or 45.4% FG%

In nobody's math does that equate to Kobe shooting 23% better FG%.. nobody's...

You can say he shot 2.3% higher FG% or you can say he has a 5% higher FG% (((45.4/43.1)*100) - 100)

[Sticksboi05]

thats right, its you who said this.

Every advanced metric says Wade was a more than comparable and in a lot of ways, better player in his prime. More efficient especially. Now, if I'm starting a team I'll take Kobe because Wade is injury prone as ****. But if I'm guaranteed to have perfect health for 10 years, give me Wade, all day. Let me ask you this, if Wade had been blessed enough to have Shaq for his absolute prime, not his 13th year in the league, how many titles does he win? Ignore titles for 5 minutes. Try it, really. Wade's 2006 playoff/Finals performance literally beats anything Kobe has done in the playoffs. Without question.

So, I get that the media has you thinking Kobe is just on another level from the rest of his generation but really, aside from staying healthy he isn't.

steve will back me up, you'll ignore metrics and stats etc.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Coming into the league acting like he was on MJ's level, yeah ok. Why? Because he was straight out of high school? Your boy was throwing up air balls from the 3 point line trying to be the man his rookie season.

Stats aside, he's made it easy to hate him.

He gets in trouble for rape for smashing some dirty white girl, then rats out Shaq to detectives because he does the same thing? Then gets Shaq exhiled from LA, because he was wants to be the big spoon? Yeah, I'm a Kobe hater alright. He can hoop, but he's a *****.

he was 18. How were you when you were 18?

And the truth is, he has gotten very close to that level.

And Kobe got a rape charge that they couldnt even pursue because the girl was out getting that work from other dudes on the same day. And Kobe was facing a serious charge and probably didnt have his mind right when he was being questioned. God forbid you ever get arrested and get questioned for a charge as serious as rape. I wouldnt want to judge you based on what you say during that interrogation.

But still, Kobe is a dick. I agree completely, but the player is one of the best players ever.

---------- Post added December-7th-2012 at 11:39 AM ----------

Every advanced metric says Wade was a more than comparable and in a lot of ways, better player in his prime. More efficient especially. Now, if I'm starting a team I'll take Kobe because Wade is injury prone as ****. But if I'm guaranteed to have perfect health for 10 years, give me Wade, all day. Let me ask you this, if Wade had been blessed enough to have Shaq for his absolute prime, not his 13th year in the league, how many titles does he win? Ignore titles for 5 minutes. Try it, really. Wade's 2006 playoff/Finals performance literally beats anything Kobe has done in the playoffs. Without question.

So, I get that the media has you thinking Kobe is just on another level from the rest of his generation but really, aside from staying healthy he isn't.

steve will back me up, you'll ignore metrics and stats etc.

im not ignoring the stats, the problem is your argument is based only on stats. Its like you dont watch the game, you just run to bball reference to make sure the stats are updated so you can continue onward.

You know why DWade is aging so ungracefully right now at 30 years old in what should be his prime years? Because his game was never as varied as Kobe's. He never had a jumper as good as Kobe's. Never had Kobe's footwork. Never had Kobe's back to the basket game. Dwade was a slasher and got a lot of points that way, but now that he has lost a step, its tough for him to do other things. Thats something that basketball-reference cant quantify.

[tone_dubbz]

he was 18. How were you when you were 18?

And the truth is, he has gotten very close to that level.

And Kobe got a rape charge that they couldnt even pursue because the girl was out getting that work from other dudes on the same day. And Kobe was facing a serious charge and probably didnt have his mind right when he was being questioned. God forbid you ever get arrested and get questioned for a charge as serious as rape. I wouldnt want to judge you based on what you say during that interrogation.

But still, Kobe is a dick. I agree completely, but the player is one of the best players ever.

I wasn't a snitch when I was 18, I can garuantee you that. Plus I would have never got bagged for something awful like RAPE!!!! So know use wondering what I would be saying to detectives to save my ass.

"never rat on your friends and always keep your mouth shut"...........that's man code!

I know he's seen Goodfellas before.

Other than his off court issues, yeah he's top ten. He's also top ten ********ed player!

[Going Commando]

1. MJ

2. Russell

3. Kareem

4. Wilt

5. Magic

6. Bird

7. Duncan

8. Shaq

9. Kobe

10. Oscar

Even winning another championship and surpassing Jordan's scoring total doesn't better his legacy. His inefficiency comparatively to the rest of the field speaks volume as does his win production when he had Shaq shipped out of town.

I don't think Shaq should be that high, and I think you might have Oscar too low.

Without thinking about it too much, I'd go:

1. MJ

2. Kareem

3. & 4. Wilt/Russell

5. & 6. Magic/Bird

7. Oscar

8. Duncan

9. Kobe

10. Moses or Dr. J if you count ABA. Or if ABA is given equal weight, Artis Gilmore is in there. If you don't? .... Probably KG, Shaq, or Karl Malone.

I think Kobe has a chance to pass Oscar, Duncan, maybe even Magic and Bird if he hangs on long enough. But I also think LeBron is going to pass him and maybe bust into the top three.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

I wasn't a snitch when I was 18, I can garuantee you that. Plus I would have never got bagged for something awful like RAPE!!!! So know use wondering what I would be saying to detectives to save my ass.

"never rat on your friends and always keep your mouth shut"...........that's man code!

I know he's seen Goodfellas before.

Other than his off court issues, yeah he's top ten. He's also top ten ********ed player!

well I did say, "God forbid," I hope you dont. My point is that I dont know how I would react under questioning, and neither do you.

And dude, you are quoting a movie, this is real life.

[tone_dubbz]

well I did say, "God forbid," I hope you dont. My point is that I dont know how I would react under questioning, and neither do you.

And dude, you are quoting a movie, this is real life.

But that quote is applicable in real life. It just goes to show what type of dude Kobe is.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

But that quote is applicable in real life. It just goes to show what type of dude Kobe is.

honestly, I dont hold the telling on Shaq's affairs against Kobe. A) he was under stress over a rape charge. It made dude not think clearly, like it would for most others He probably never thought the conversation would be released C) Shaunie knew dude was cheating anyway. D) Kobe isnt a street dude.

There are a lot of things to get on Kobe Bryant the person over, but him being shook and telling about Shaq paying hoes off on the road is not one of them I ever got.

[JMS]

you really gonna compare the Dr J's media oull back in 1984, to Jordan's in 1997 when Kobe entered the league? I dont recall a song called "I wanna be like Doc,"

My point is Dr. J was the most popular basketball player in the country in the mid 1970's. Michael Jordan and Nike set out to recreate Dr. J's media sensation in order to sell shoes. Dr. J was the first...

And yes every kid in the 1970's had Dr J's basketball poster in his room and the 1976 ABA slam dunk contest between Dr J. George "The Ice Man" Gervin, Larry Kenon, MVP Artis "The A-Train "Gilmore", and David "The Skywalker" Thompson created and cemented the slam dunk contest in the psychi of the country. Dr. J's winning slam dunk in that contest was recreated by Michael Jordan ( only he cradled the ball) and made Jordan famous... Leaving the court at the foul line and slamming..

I'm not saying Jordan didn't grow into his own, or that Jordan is somehow diminished. I am saying that Jordan came into a league with Dr. Jay near his height of popularity, purposely copied Dr. J. and ultimately excelled such that nobody remembers

Jordan as a shadow of Dr. J... Jordan didn't finish his career copying anybody. People don't care that he tried to emulate the best when he came into the league; they honor him because he was successful and ultimately grew out of emulating anybody..

this is one of those myths that keeps getting repeated despite it being debunked. ( Kobe getting Shaq Traded..)

:doh: The Lakers consulted with free agent Kobe prior to trading Shaq. If Kobe didn't block Phil Jackson from being resigned, and insist on trades favoring his own style of play, constantly threaten to leave the lakers and continue to run his mouth about Shaq's injuries, Shaq returns. and the Lakers win two more championships..

Kobe cared more about Kobe than Championships. Kobe's ego dismantled the Lakers. First loosing Phil Jackson and then in rapid succession Shaq... He blew up a championship team when he had the leverage to do so and that's all on him.

Kobe being a bad teammate..

Facts: Kobe Bryant does not join the team for dinners on the road, failed to attend O'Neal's wedding though invited, and did not invite a single teammate to his own wedding.

He's a sullen, spoiled, star who would rather complain about how everybody else sucks than roll up his sleeves and do something about it.

Kobe being a bad Leader and ( based on no facts)....

Kobe Bryant: Not a Leader

Ejected 3 minutes left as Lakers loose to Bobcats..

Kobe Gave up 15 techical Fouls

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/14808-kobe-bryant-not-a-leader

Steve Nash and Kobe Bryant, contrasts in leadership

berate 'em into professionalism" approach than Bryant.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/49296/steve-nash-and-kobe-bryant-contrasts-in-leadership

Kobe Bryant has been accused of being a bad teammate for his behavior by Smush Parker, who Bryant said was a bad teammate because he sucked.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/14/kobe-bryant-posts-about-leadership-on-facebook/

Kobe Bryant, after Lakers lose to Magic: ‘I’ll kick everybody’s ass in this locker room’ if we don’t fix things

so did Jordan. So did Bird. So did Magic. So did many other great players. Its annoying that Kobe does it because its 2012 and the 24/7 media cycle and the internet. If you want to get angry at something a famous person does, all you have to do is search for it. Kobe also won 5 championships being an *******.

Its hard to make Brian Cook, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm better players.

I'm sorry... Equating Kobe bryant to Bird or Magic is crazy much less Jordan on making players around them better....

Bird took a team of nobody's to the NCAA finals and one game away from an undefeated season.. Nobody on Bird's Indiana State team was even drafted into the NBA that year other than Bird.. Likewise Kevin McCale, Robert Parish, and Denis Johnson were all traded to the Celtics. Other teams gave up on these players and Bird helped mold them into some say the best first five in NBA history, ( The Celtics got Ange from the Blue Jay's baseball team after buying out his contract).. Bird and Magic definitely made their teams better. I think Jordan did too to a lesser extent.. I think Jordan was instrumental in developing Pipen. Kobe doesn't do that, never has. Sure Kobe uses the hammer, but he has nothing else. He doesn't inspire he just invokes fear.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Bleacher Report editorials and Smush Parker

I even linked articles with quotes from coaches and players and Shaq, and you just ignored it to carry on you vendetta.

[Sticksboi05]

he was 18. How were you when you were 18?

And the truth is, he has gotten very close to that level.

And Kobe got a rape charge that they couldnt even pursue because the girl was out getting that work from other dudes on the same day. And Kobe was facing a serious charge and probably didnt have his mind right when he was being questioned. God forbid you ever get arrested and get questioned for a charge as serious as rape. I wouldnt want to judge you based on what you say during that interrogation.

But still, Kobe is a dick. I agree completely, but the player is one of the best players ever.

---------- Post added December-7th-2012 at 11:39 AM ----------

im not ignoring the stats, the problem is your argument is based only on stats. Its like you dont watch the game, you just run to bball reference to make sure the stats are updated so you can continue onward.

You know why DWade is aging so ungracefully right now at 30 years old in what should be his prime years? Because his game was never as varied as Kobe's. He never had a jumper as good as Kobe's. Never had Kobe's footwork. Never had Kobe's back to the basket game. Dwade was a slasher and got a lot of points that way, but now that he has lost a step, its tough for him to do other things. Thats something that basketball-reference cant quantify.

If anyone in here obsesses solely over metrics in ever sport it is steve, not me.

Second, Dwyane Wade at mid-range was an effective shooter. And really I don't care where the points come from as long as they are there. Again, in my argument you are guaranteed perfect health. If Wade took as many shots as Kobe, 30 ppg would be a given in his prime. Now, as I said earlier, if I'm starting a franchise, I take Kobe because as good as Wade is, his style makes him extremely injury prone. Way too injury prone.

And please, Kobe's bread and butter is not in the post though he has a solid post game for his size, it's his ability to hold the ball and create space for a shot himself.

Again, Wade in 2006 put the team on his back more than Kobe ever has had to do during a championship run in his 17 year career.