ES: To Kick or Not to Kick?

Since the year 2000, which is a 13 season span including this one, the Washington Redskins have utilized 14 kickers. That's more than a kicker per year. That stat alone is fairly depressing.

Here's a breakdown of each of the fourteen kickers in order from highest % to lowest, and then another list for how they fared for 50 yarders... (NOTE: If they attempted less than 10 kicks for the team, I put them at the bottom):

Brett Conway: 30/37 (81%)

Shaun Suisham: 81/101 (80.1%)

John Hall: 54/69 (78.2%)

Graham Gano: 59/80 (73.7%)

Eddie Murray: 8/12 (66.6%)

James Tuthill: 10/16 (62.5%)

Ola Kimrin: 6/10 (60%)

Nick Novak: 10/17 (58.8%)

Billy Cundiff: 5/12 (58.3%)

Kickers who didn't kick 10 kicks by percentage:

Scott Bentley: 1/1 (100%)

Jeff Chandler: 5/6 (83.3%)

Kris Heppner: 4/6 (66%)

Jose Cortez: 5/8 (62%)

Mike Husted: 4/8 (50%)

Kickers from over 50 yards (all kickers who attempted at least 1 kick):

Brett Conway 2/2 (100%)

Scott Bentley 1/1 (100%)

James Tuthill 1/1 (100%)

Graham Gano/John Hall 4/9 (44%)

Shaun Suisham 2/6 (33%)

Jeff Chandler/Ola Kimrin/Kris Heppner 0/1 (0%)

Billy Cundiff 0/2 (0%)

So here's some things I learned from this list:

-Brett Conway was fairly accurate, but since 2000 (3 seasons of work) he only played in one full season.

-Shaun Suisham was the best kicker we've had since 2000, and it's really not even close. I now feel bad for ever saying anything negative about him.

-It's too bad John Hall was always injured. He was a solid kicker for us.

-Scott Bentley's only kick with the 'Skins was a 50 yarder and he made it. That's a cool story to tell your kids/grandkids some day!

-In the year 2000 we had five kickers: Murray, Husted, Heppner, Bentley, Conway. Yikes.

-Since 2000, we've had a single kicker get through the season just six times. That's 46% of the seasons. Not a great stat.

-Since 2000, we've only had two kickers attempt more than 80 kicks (Gano/Suisham) and only one attempt more than 100 (Suisham).

-We've only had three kickers attempt over 50 kicks (Suisham, Gano, Hall).

-We've only had four kickers attempt over 20 kicks (Suisham, Gano, Hall, Conway)

-We have yet to have a kicker with as great of a nickname as Kobra Kai Forbath. That bodes well for him.

Suisham would hit every field goal when it didn't matter. He was a choke artist though. I can't wait to see him lose a playoff game for the Steelers this year.

Having said that: I'd rather have someone hitting field goals on a consistent basis than not.

Suisham would hit every field goal when it didn't matter. He was a choke artist though. I can't wait to see him lose a playoff game for the Steelers this year.

Suisham would hit every field goal when it didn't matter. He was a choke artist though. I can't wait to see him lose a playoff game for the Steelers this year.

Remember when Suisham missed those kicks for the Cowturds in the 2009 playoffs?

Wow. I drastically overrated Hall, and underrated Suisham. Color me shocked.

I'm very, very pleased with the signing of Forbath. I didn't want an old (presumably short-legged now) re-tread like Mare. And frankly, if Forbath struggles a little bit early, I'm OK with that. He's got time to learn and grow, just like that core of Griffin, Morris, our young receivers, Kerrigan, and others. We're going to endure some (more) growing pains. But I feel like we finally have a group that, if we keep them together, will be good for a long time to come.

But in the kicking game, I'm so jealous of teams like Philly that had a David Akers for years, or NE/Indy with Vinatieri (a sure-fire HOFer, IMO.) Can you imagine our Redskins lining up for a game-winner and writing that "W" in the win column...IN PEN!!! It's been since Moseley, literally, that I felt that way.

Ugh :doh: James Tuthill. A.K.A. Mr.BONG!!! It seemed like every kick he had hit the upright. Even some of the ones that went in.

Good info KD.

I see similarities between how this coaching staff approached the quarterback and kicker positions. They started with youngsters they were never really sold on (Graham Gano and Jason Campbell) tried to go the veteran route (Billy Cundiff and Donovan McNabb) until they realized it just wasn't going to work out, and now they're forced to go all in on an unproven rookie who looked very good during his college days (Griffin and Forbath). I'm not saying the new kicker is a lock to be as talented as RGIII or anything. Just noticed a random trend that tied the franchise's two most glaring needs over the last 20 years together.

It just seems out of his style for Shanahan to just sign Cundiff with no workout, to the contract he got, after he choked in the playoffs for the Ravens. I guess he has his Vinny moments, too.

The one constant in all of those kickers is this- The WORST Special Teams coaching staffs in the league.

I see similarities between how this coaching staff approached the quarterback and kicker positions. They started with youngsters they were never really sold on (Graham Gano and Jason Campbell) tried to go the veteran route (Billy Cundiff and Donovan McNabb) until they realized it just wasn't going to work out, and now they're forced to go all in on an unproven rookie who looked very good during his college days (Griffin and Forbath). I'm not saying the new kicker is a lock to be as talented as RGIII or anything. Just noticed a random trend that tied the franchise's two most glaring needs over the last 20 years together.

You know, I had similar thoughts when posting this thread, but no where near as organized as what you just laid out.

The parallels are remarkable. I'm not sure Forbath is to the K position as Griffin is to the QB position, but it's a very similar track.

Hopefully, they both turn out to be studs for a very long time

I always enjoy your threads KD, you put so much work into clarifying the game for us but dayum, I can't help thinking that you are a masochist on some level

I always enjoy your threads KD, you put so much work into clarifying the game for us but dayum, I can't help thinking that you are a masochist on some level

You know, I've wondered that, too.

We'll see once we start getting good stats if I enjoy doing this as much. I may just sit back and not say a word and enjoy it

Looked up the word, knowing it meant someone who enjoyed pain, but I wanted to see the full definitions:

mas·och·ist  /ˈmæsəkɪst/ Show Spelled[mas-uh-kist] Show IPA

noun

1. Psychiatry . a person who has masochism, the condition in which sexual or other gratification depends on one's suffering physical pain or humiliation.

2. a person who is gratified by pain, degradation, etc., that is self-imposed or imposed by others.

3. a person who finds pleasure in self-denial, submissiveness, etc.

1 absolutely doesn't fit me in the least.

I'm definitely not gratified by degradation. So 2 is out.

3 looks like a winner. Although, I'm not sure it's pleasure. More like I'm submissive to how bad we've been? Does that work? Does that make me a masochist?

Wow. I drastically overrated Hall, and underrated Suisham. Color me shocked.

I'm very, very pleased with the signing of Forbath. I didn't want an old (presumably short-legged now) re-tread like Mare. And frankly, if Forbath struggles a little bit early, I'm OK with that. He's got time to learn and grow, just like that core of Griffin, Morris, our young receivers, Kerrigan, and others. We're going to endure some (more) growing pains. But I feel like we finally have a group that, if we keep them together, will be good for a long time to come.

But in the kicking game, I'm so jealous of teams like Philly that had a David Akers for years, or NE/Indy with Vinatieri (a sure-fire HOFer, IMO.) Can you imagine our Redskins lining up for a game-winner and writing that "W" in the win column...IN PEN!!! It's been since Moseley, literally, that I felt that way.

I guarantee that you will probably be one of the only one. ES nation is a fickle beast and one that does not allow the 'learning curve' for ANYONE for ANY reason.

I truly hope that the kicking game gets solidified here for awhile. Not having a heart attack during a FG would be nice.

To put this into context though Mark Mosley was a 65% career kicker and Chip Lohmiller 70%.

I guarantee that you will probably be one of the only one. ES nation is a fickle beast and one that does not allow the 'learning curve' for ANYONE for ANY reason.

I truly hope that the kicking game gets solidified here for awhile. Not having a heart attack during a FG would be nice.

Kickers shouldn't get a learning curve. They only have one thing to learn, and they should know how to do it already.

I'll be calling for Forbath's head as soon as one of his kicks comes within 3 feet of missing.

When evaluating specific moves by any coaching staff, I always try to remember that even the worst coach in the NFL knows so much more about football than I do, it's not even debatable.

That said, there are certain signs from any team that show a troubling lack of planning. When you have a competition at a position and then cut both players in said competition, and then sign someone who was cut from two other teams at the 11th hour...not a good sign.

I explained the situation to my sister in a semi-rant when Cundiff was signed. She admittedly knows next to nothing about football but has a keen sense of organizational competence. Her quote was: "That doesn't sound like it's going to work out too well".

I'm really hoping we strike gold with Forbath, but wasn't he also cut by 2 teams? Hopefully, like a cobra, he's waiting patiently to pounce when the opportunity presented itself. And could it get any worse?

Skip the kicker. If you're in FG range, you're in make-it-on-4th-and-be-a-man range. Bonus: you have to for 2 every time.

I'm really hoping we strike gold with Forbath, but wasn't he also cut by 2 teams?

I think part of that is "such is the life of a kicker." How many kickers spend their entire career with one team. And honestly, I'm not sure he's gotten a legitimate shot in Dallas or Tampa. Sure, part of my assessment is viewing it through my usual burgundy and gold glasses, but his having been cut twice doesn't scare me at all. Hell, the Pats let Vinatieri go. Just sayin'.

* 9,000

I would be curious to see the statistics with the kickers on kicks blocked. No matter how you look at it, it skews the stats. If it counts as an attempt, it lowers their percentage.

Of course, then you'd also have to do an analysis of whether it was caused by kicking it too low (the only one, IMO, that should be counted as an attempt) or a bad snap/hold, or as was the case with Gano's 5 blocks, someone coming up the middle without being blocked.

To put this into context though Mark Mosley was a 65% career kicker and Chip Lohmiller 70%.

Different era's. Those two wouldn't survive in today's NFL. They'd have to be at minimum 80%.

Different era's. Those two wouldn't survive in today's NFL. They'd have to be at minimum 80%.

Yeah I agree, we'll certainly Moseley but then he was just about the last of the era of straight ahead kickers. Lohmiller might have been able to play. I just mentioned these guys as most fans would think of those guys as having successful careers here despite their very average records. They made some big kicks in big games and played on championship teams so we tend to think about them differently.

I'm not sure we have actually had a really good kicker in my time as a fan and that goes back to 82.

Yeah I agree, we'll certainly Moseley but then he was just about the last of the era of straight ahead kickers. Lohmiller might have been able to play. I just mentioned these guys as most fans would think of those guys as having successful careers here despite their very average records. They made some big kicks in big games and played on championship teams so we tend to think about them differently.

I'm not sure we have actually had a really good kicker in my time as a fan and that goes back to 82.

Mosely was the last straight ahead "full time" kicker in 1986-87 being his last season. Steve Cox was a full time punter that kicked straight ahead.

Lohmiller was actully the prototype for today's kicker and he was considered accurate in his day. He was big, had a big leg, could boom the kickoffs and scored alot of points. He retired at a young age though. I'd consider him to be our last "good" kicker.

Skip the kicker. If you're in FG range, you're in make-it-on-4th-and-be-a-man range. Bonus: you have to for 2 every time.

What's interesting about that philosophy (I know that you're kidding) is that you only really need to convert and ultimately score a TD half the time for it to make sense. If you score a TD on the half the drives that you skip FGs, then you come out even...and that's assuming you'd never miss a FG. Now, if you convert some of the 2-point conversions, you can be even less successful. I'd actually love to see a team eventually try this during the tail end of a horrible season.

What's interesting about that philosophy (I know that you're kidding) is that you only really need to convert and ultimately score a TD half the time for it to make sense. If you score a TD on the half the drives that you skip FGs, then you come out even...and that's assuming you'd never miss a FG. Now, if you convert some of the 2-point conversions, you can be even less successful. I'd actually love to see a team eventually try this during the tail end of a horrible season.

The overall conversion rate of 2 point tries is right around 50% (I think the number is about 48% to be exact). So if teams never kicked and only went for two after a TD, the odds are it would even out.

The overall conversion rate of 2 point tries is right around 50% (I think the number is about 48% to be exact). So if teams never kicked and only went for two after a TD, the odds are it would even out.

Good to know, thanks.

So, if a team had a "No Kicker" policy, you could assume 7 points per TD. That means that if you went for 4th down every time you were in FG range, you would only need to score TDs on about 43% of those drives to justify passing up the 3 points. That also doesn't factor in the 20% chance you have of missing a FG.

I'm calling Bellicheat...he'd do it!